The Art of Natural Dressage

How beautifully put, Miriam. Yet, that is the nexus for bit and bitless thinking and philosophy.

The point of the cordeo isn't to teach the horse to respond to a cue, it's to teach the horse to respond to many cues that are transfered to the cordeo so that it never needs to be "heavy" pressure for the horse to feel it.

In fact, as in all of the great ancient classical dressage that we cite through AND, the point was to refine the aids to the point they were imperceptable not only to observers, but to the horse and rider as well.

We so often hear, even now, "I only had to think 'levade' (etc.) and the horse would give it."

My own tradition, La Jaquima, was very light that. If the student could not ride with cues so light, doing spins, slides, rollbacks, and even following and working cows, with a thread fastening the reins to the Bosal the teacher would make the student go back many steps and start over.

As much for the horse's sake as for the student.

In my own mind lightness is not in the cue, but the release. And gradually the cue itself is reduces almost to the point there is nothing left in the training progression but the release itself.

Though I won't use bits, I know them well, and we prided ourselves on the higher arts of the vaquero tradition of never, once the horse reached the "bridled," (meaning bitted) stage, pulling, never cuing so that others, except our peers, could detect the cues.

I recently taught a student, in her first session with me, on a green (as to being a reining horse) mare, how to back her horse with NO cue other than tilting her own head back just a bit. Of course I had her do preliminary preparatory exercises, but when the moment came to use this lightest of cues, the horse responded nicely.

The rider was amazed. Not because it's magic, but precisely because all I'd had her do that came to that moment of supreme lightness congealed for her. She KNEW what had happened. Students such as this are a blessing. Her instruction integrated for her.

I suggest anyone wishing to use the cordeo review the work presented in the forum, the folder, on ground work.

All the preparation for cordeo work is there.

Once Altea is ridable (keep your fingers crossed for her and for me, and for Kate) that particular folder will be reviewed many times by me as I work through the steps one must perform before every tying the cordeo.

I think I'll build one in the ancient vaquero tradition. Ever seen an Alamar knot?

It's a quite beautiful, but inexpensive decorative collar for the horse resting against he breast. A kind of medallion made from a flat design of rope, usually done with a hair mecate. I know it would make a nice, in fact a striking, cordeo, though I'm still thinking about how to create a safety breakaway in a two or three strand assembly of the Alamar Knot.

That can be my goal for what I'll use, when I've done the preliminary preparatory work on the ground that prepares the horse to take the lightest of cues. Just as I currently teach La Jaquima to horse and rider.

Thank you for your clarity and your insight on this question of the mind and what part it plays in bit vs non-bit work. Even bit users can benefit by recognizing the difference. If they'd apply it the horse, the bitted horse, might have a little less painful life.

Donald R.

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

This is exactly what people say who have never rode bitless about a bitless bridle

And it is the same discussion when people say: 'yes, but with a bit I can give much more subtle cues than with a BB.
The question is (is it a question?), who experiences that subtleness. The horse or the rider?

Can anything be subtle with a bar of metal in your mouth?

A bit only enlarges ones movement and ones applied pressure therefore it feels light to the rider (and the stronger the bit the lighter it will feel, for the rider.)

The same goes up more or less for a Bitless bridle and the last step before riding naked, the cordeo.

You haven't got much to 'say' with a cordeo, so what does that tell you about how the horse experiences it?

Exactly that, is what can make dressage easy and correct, for one can not force the horse in any way. So one can not make the mistake of asking something that the horse is not ready to do.
Or, that is my philosophy anyway

And this is not about being good or bad to your horse. It is about that gymnastic excersizes only have value when their are ridden correct in respect to dressage for the health of the horse.



Absolutely nothing! I have nothing against bridles. My mistake for letting you think so.
I just ment to explain that from biomechanical point of view, the bridle is not the one collecting the horse, the horse, collects the horse.

I just would like for you to have a different or fresh look at bits, bridles and dressage in general.
For me that where the last pieces in the puzzle and I am happy the share them.
But of course you do not have to agree with me

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well, today Kody responded to the cordeo just by it being touched. Because he is willing to work with me, all I have to do is to communicate in a way that he understands.

The picture between the two different kids of training is getting clearer to me, I always have had a vague feeling about it when I have known that my horses respond to my thoughts only, but then lacking a system it is not always easy to be consistant

That is fantastic news Heppa!!!

You are a natural, you see? You just have to follow your instincts And your instinct follows your horse

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Heppa, you ARE, most definitely a "natural". You feel your horses' thoughts and they respond to yours. Your conversation with Murray at the creek hinted at your capability. The intimate whispers between Murray and yourself was amazing.

I think in the grand scheme of things, you will be doing less "teaching the horse" than some of us because you have this mental capability. The trick, perhaps, is just in believing within yourself that nearly anything is possible. I am so glad that you have Kody to help you find this part of yourself.

Murray will perhaps still be a challenge only because of the pureness of his spirit and his very definite ideas about the world. He is no less willing to be a partner in your journey than Kody, but I think he just needs you to believe in yourself more, and to trust your instincts, as Josepha has said. He will wait for you to find the place where you have the confidence to engage with such a strong and special spirit. He may not know it yet, but you will be able to guide him past his fears. I'm so excited for you!

See, I feel that I have to teach Tam and Cisco to bypass my own shortcomings - not being able to communicate clearly enough (or listen carefully enough!). It's nice to know though, that they can still enjoy the interaction while I get it figured out.

I just think that you have more ability within yourself that you, yourself, believe.

Well...

Believe it!

You are doing fantastic, and I'm really going to enjoy seeing you blast beyond where I am. I really think you will!

How often have you, and I for that matter, seen horse people that assure you they know what their horse is experiencing, and if asked will happily show you -- and they are very mistaken?

The first obstacle that AND throws up in our way when we begin to try and use the concepts and the philosophy with our horse is self doubt.

Self doubt because we possibly for the first time in our horse careers (or horse avocation) have to face that we do indeed NOT know what is truly inside the horse. What he or she is thinking and feeling.

We must learn all over again. Or if new to horses, learn for the first time, that there is no master, no mentor, no educator, nor teacher better than the one standing in front of us, our horse.

In working with humans I had all the education that I could get crammed into my head, and I had all the answers for "humans" in general. But one after the other humans I worked with proved two things to me: one, that I could not help them in the least until I let go of the notion that my knowledge applied to them; and two, that each and every one was a unique individual that was not going to be candid with me until we had a relationship both ways.

Time and again I would slip back into, "ah yes, we covered this disorder, this syndrome, in 'modern therapies,'" or some other canned program to codify all humans into neat categories.

Horses ... they are no different. They defy the generalities commonly accepted about them.

And either we give up on horses, or we look at another model. A model that sees them as wonderfully complex individuals that we may never have all the answers to in specific individuals.

Thus, we feel less than sure of ourselves.

A wonderful attitude, by the way, for a life long learner.

Donald R.

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I had the sesson with the Animal Communicator (AC) "talking" to Murray yesterday. I had read her book in advance and found it to be enough credible to give it a try.

Most of what she told me that Murray "said" to her was kind of correct but her interpretation of it was not.

She told me first Murray said he wanted me to be the alpha mare. Then Murray "said' that during the riding lesson Murray refused to trot just because he was testing me. She said it was not a physical problem. Her suggestion was for me to work on the ground with him on the leadership issue and have my instructor get on him again if he refuses. (I told her later this not the way I am going to proceed)

I argued and , but then realized that I was feeling very uncomfortable about my instructor's method , she was in charge and I did not like it. And I am sure Murray sensed it. I think he was saying that he wanter me to be in charge , not the instructor. The AC did not interpret it correctly.

Then she told me Murray had weak hocks and more so on the left . , but no other health problems. Down at the creek last week he fell hocks deep in the mud, deeper on the left side and had to struggle to get out of the mud. I have noticed he is a little stiff with his hind legs.

Then Murray 'said" that he does not want to back up. I argued and told her that he always backs up for me willingly in the barn in the arena etc .
Then I realized when we were at the creek and I asked him to come down the bank and showed him where the solid footing was, I remember having the idea that he was telling me that there was no room for him to turn around , which would mean that he would have to back up hill to get out of there.

Then I told the lady that my instructor is not coming back any more and she said Murray "said" he was glad since she was too arrogant. He also "said" that he liked the clicker training and would try to trot for me next time.

Well, some of this sounds like she is making conclusions from her experience and my information BUT if indeed there was any communication going on between her and Murray I will have to interpret it to fit with the AND philosophy (not because I want to follow this 'doctrine" but because in my heart I feel this is the right direction.)

Could someone summarize the philosophy of the AND training here and could they repeat it again?
Is it that that physical aids (reins, cordeo, legs, weight etc) are used for means of communication between the humans and the horse , not for a conditioned response? Why then do we use treats? Are the treats used to to give the horse a motivation? We can surely communicate "yes" or "no" also in many other ways. (my animals know "no" from just a deep "naa" sound)
But doesn't releasing of the pressure in "pressure -release "type training also give the horse a motivation? Or is the ANd training just a deeper level of motivation?

Heppa,

First, there is no set right and wrong, no rigid rules on how you MUST work with your horses. The idea that is supported here is that the needs of the horse come first, and bitless is promoted, but again, it is not dictated. You are free to choose for your horses.

The main theme here is that we are all on a learning journey. We are all open to learning from all sources, good or bad. And the primary teacher for all of us is the horse itself. There is no better authority!

The idea is that you listen to the horse. You are observant and you watch for signs and signals from the horse that he/she is being stressed or upset and you try to determine the source of the discomfort. You also watch for signs of composure and "happiness" from the horse and take clues from that as well.

That is why we all do it a little differently...because we all interpret what our horses are saying to us in different ways. We look at ears, swishing tails, does the horse leave us? Does the horse seem eager to engage with us?

Yesterday, as I approached the mounting block with Tam, he shook his head. When I got on the mounting block, he walked away. Couldn't get much clearer than that, could he?



Then I have to figure out why. He was farting a lot, so it's possible he wasn't feeling well. He has also lately been shaking his ears...so I know something is going on (going to get it checked out)and it's possible that the headstall alone felt uncomfortable for him.

At any rate...it's an example of "listening" of feeling confident in knowing when something is right, or when it's not.

Then...on to "motivation". Food is fine, or whatever your horse finds enjoyable. Some use pressure/release as part of the interaction. Some pressure is unavoidable. Any request is a form of pressure. The idea is to keep the pressure as light as possible so the horse never feels uncomfortable with the amount of pressure used, and it should never escalate to a level where pain is felt. I say "should never", not as a rule, but as a philosphy. Does that make sense?

And we all condition responses in the horses. Primarily by rewarding what we like to see.

If food is not what you want to use, then experiment with other means...a good scratch, a kind word..whatever your horse finds motivating. Experiment and play.

Part of using pressure/release even within AND is that you use the slightest pressure, and you reward for a smaller response. That way, a response can quickly grow to a larger response. The key, always, is in rewarding the smallest try. That "try" may be the wrong the response, but it IS a response, and by rewarding the horse for it, you are acknowledging that the horse is trying to seek out the answer you want. Or perhaps you take his answer as it is (if it wasn't what you thought it should have been or wanted) and then register it in your mind that a particular touch or body language signal from you, results in the that particular response from the horse. You can use praise or reward to help solidfy that response so it becomes more and more consistent.

SO you may stand beside your horse and simply touch lightly, with some intent in your mind, and jsut see what the response is. If you like the response, reward it so that the horse will remember the praise and perhaps offer that response again.

Does this help?

You are always free to choose what is right for you, and what you feel is right for your horses.

There are no "interdicts" here!

Murray's bloodwork came back positive for LYme and elevated muscle enzymes.
So he is fighting at least two physical battles. No wonder he does not want to trot when I am sitting on him! No wonder he does not care if I use metal in his mouth or a strap around his nose to communicate. He is just not feeling well.

Neither is Kody (did no draw blood on him) For two days he has had no energy.

I had stopped giving them oil a month ago when someone convinced me that oil is not natural for horses but they are telling me otherwise. I am going back to feeding oil.
(I feed the unrefined, cold pressed coconut soy oil about a cup a day)

Right now I have no reason to ride Kody with a cordeo. I only need to communicate and he will respond if he understands and if he is able '

Hey Heppa, I posted a longer reply in your other thread in response to Murray's illness, but I wanted to take you a moment and send you a virtual hug.

I'm so sorry that he's feeling crappy! I'm sure you're worried about him.

(And as I said in my other post -- yay for you for being strong enough to push back at the advice you were getting about him just being a pill and actually look for what might be happening.)

Hugs,
Leigh

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I do ride with a bit as well as bridle-less. FOr me even when riding with a bit on contact, my body ALWAYS ALWAYS give the aids/cues first. The bit is merely a way of sying , "Pony, I was talking to you." The same applies to a cordeo. With a bit I can give more precise reminders for bend, ramener, etc, and yes, more harsh reminders, but my body is always used first and the goal is always for the horse to recognize and react to my body language and intent. There is no excuse for asking something with my hands if I can't ask first with my body. The reins give me a way to explain to my horse what my body was saying if there is any confusion. A cordeo can be every bit as effective (pun intended) . Actaully a cordeo can be more effective as it requires the rider to REALLY be sure that aids are coming from the body first. The bit allows us to be crude.
When I use my reins with the same tact required of a cordeo and I use my cordeo with the same tact required of my reins, I know I am doing good!!!

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Learning to put the relationship first.

I'm absolutely with you on this one. In another topic we discussed using both...something like a double bridle...because the cordeo is brilliant for the ramener cue, and the reins are nice for when we don't get our body language down quite right (yes, I feel very crude at times too). Together, it's a rather cool combination that ends up requiring both be used very little. The eins tend to stay slack, and the cordeo use becomes softer. Kinda cool.

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

see the update on Murray in the post about transfering gorund work to riding.

I have been riding Murray in the BB in the round pen at the walk for short rides. Now that he is learning to re-trust me and I have promised not to push him into trot when he is not physically ready, I truly can ride him from my body language only. I still need to teach him that the pressure on the noseband means to stop, turn etc but I am just now entering a new dimension of the kind of riding relationship I had thought I already had (wrong!)

I still don't know how to deal with those times when he will potentially spook at the deer on future trail rides and forgets that I am up there , but I guess more time together will help. , and we are not rail riding for a long time till his stifle heals.

One thing that I do so that we don't surprise any game in the woods is all the animals, horses and dogs wear bells. That usually spooks anything that may be ahead waaaaay before we get there so we never see them! Which is fine by me!

I see it as it can't hurt, and I think the bells are calming, sort of like white noise as we walk thru the quiet woods! At least I like them!!

Brenda

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