how you define a succesful training.
I think I was misunderstood. In most of the examples I was talking about clicker traing. I am sorry, my fault, because I didn't explained that I did it only for 1 week. I gave up because I realized that it does not make sense. Shapes behavior, but these are tricks, that have nothing to do with a real connection with the horse. The horse does something because he knows that he will get a delicacy. Totally pointless. These are not real relationship with the horse.
Perchaps spanish walk, when we teach a horse spanish walk with clicker training, the horse will not feel real pride. The horse is not going to do the spanish steps because he loves them, but because he wants to get praise or reward in the form of food.
Now I'm not giving treats as done or not done task. The exception is trimming hooves, where the horse need to be in focus for a long time. Besides I like to give treats for nothing, just suddenly give delicacy.
7 years before I did what most of you are doing here. It's all NHE. Maybe a little modified. I was doing that by 5 years.
From two years I am sure that my horses need a leader and I stopped with NHE. For me, this is a good start, but now I have to add more to my relationship with horses. NHE does not create a real bond with the horse. These are the usual tricks. Learned behaviors, it is not a true bond. What about the fact that the horse is always right, and that he can express its opinion. It's not enough to create a real bond with the horse.
Today I put off all trenings and I focus on other. Next year I will return to training, maybe. Meybe for two years. I don't know.
Can you explain, why you think you need to be calm when being with horses?
To form a bond with the horse. An invisible line that we are all connected.
What exactly do you mean by controlling yourself then?
I control to stay "here and now"
"Biting hurts me and makes me feel unwell. So, here is a branch, you could bite in if you like to?"
I did this for 5 years. Today I know that distract the horse is not necessary. I would say even that is unnecessary. Although if a man does not see any other out of the situation , it is always a way out. But in the long run it leads nowhere. It is a vicious circle.
Besides in contact with the horse first and foremost I have to be myself. I can't be a puppet, which is made of my horses's pleasures. Only if I will find myself a horse regain peace and stop biting. The horse will find a quiet joy in relishing the moment.
Now what I wrote is not synonymous with speaking "no". Speaking to the horse "no" means "stop doing what you're doing now", and this is a task for the horse because this task at this point is to focus. The horse stops biting, focused and waiting for my next suggestion or praise. At this point, the horse is fully aware of his fucusing, provided that I am focused. Horse's pride reaches the sky. This is an agreement that creates a bond.
I think that to be with horses I need to be free from all my though, and then I will be at the state which is opposed to the state when diffrent thoughs penetrate my head, and only that state I can be full aware of being here and now. As a result I attain peace and quiet experience the joy of being.
When dealing with sensitive horses, I focus on doing as much as possible by asking the horse to move towards me, and not so much by him to move away from me.
I agree with You, but only in certain situations.
Pagoda- If she is fairly calm what you write will work.
Pagoda- when she is scared of something, I have to do everything to not lose eye contact with her, I have to use my body langueage so that her attention was focused exclusively on me. It is quite difficult, because I do not have enough experience. In this case I ask about move away ( quaters or hindquaters) from me, and then quickly about fallow. This makes she stops to think about the threat and calms down (of course she calms down only when I am here and now and I am very very calm and I am full aware about this situation).
Princess- always, regardless of the situation this horse can not see any other requirements like to jump on my back. She wants to be close all the time. Too close. And I have to watch over the distance. I never had a problem to getting her she followed me, she would go with me to the end of the world, but the problem is that she feels better when she is 10 cm behind me, and I feel better when she is 1 meter behind me
When using longer waiting times between the rewards, I make it possible for the horse to be active on his own. That is so important, because if the initiative comes from the horses side, it feels more confident about this decision, as it probably would when someone would try to convince him about going through this situation.
I think this isn't good idea. If you use rewards for a completed task and wait with them, this horse will guess what you mean. It will not be the initiative to play, but the guessing game to get a reward from you. He will be think- she would give me reward if I do something....
For example, when Princess is scared of the halter, you could start by seing the halter as something so great, that it belongs to you. It has nothing to do with her, the focus isn't set on her. So when you move towards her and she shows the slightest reaction of fear, you immediatly move away. This has two effects:
Ok, this is good idea of every "scare" things for horses. I agree with You, you given very good examples. Thank You.
But I'll tell you personally that Princess never escapes when she is scared, she always attacks, as in a chase the tiger play
she bites a halter out of boredom. This is a play for her. She will take everything in her mouth, bites blanket, tarps tear, bites my jacket, tears sweater. Just for fun....
This may be helpful to make her an confident and self-reliant partner, by not treating her as a victim of her fear.
There is only one chance to make it happen. I have to be completely muted.
Staying calm is the solution when we think that this statewill transfer to the horse and help him to calm down as well. But the problem with it can be that the horse can get disengaged from you and start doing his own thing, as your energy levels simply don't fit together. So, when Princess is spooky and therefore fast, I am even faster. For example, you can ask for immediate reactions, such as trot, stop, walk on, trot,turn over and so on. Within a short time the horse will get focused again and more concentrated on you.The concept behind it is that you use the horses actual behaviour and give it another meaning.
Thank you. I agree with you, but It took many years before I realized that it's not about the construction the level of my energy to match the level of energy that she has. My energy should be constant, all the time the same as in the arts of karate or teakwondo. I use my energy but at the same time I am very calm, because my energy is constant. Increasing the speed of movement of my body my spiritual energy is constant. It is not associated with experiencing emotions. If I keeping my inner energy in harmony, there will be no chaos, then the horse will be delighted with it and I will be a true leader, who will give the horse what he is looking for in me- peace and harmony.Dear Volker and Rose
I think that you will be interesting in this: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gYFhfHkb41g/SsACz0dBfTI/AAAAAAAAALo/1z-JOQTwEoc/s320/plutchik_flower.jpg
Here is little explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_classification
A few years ago, I wrote about this topic in a NHE forum. Then I was of the opinion that the horses feel all these emotions just like people, and even I gave examples of such behavior....Today I know that I was wrong.Volker
My own feelings are in so far important, as they are the one thing that I'm an expert in. How the horse is really feeling and why he is acting how he does, is up to speculation. I can never be entirely sure of that. But if I feel angry, or scared, or whatever - that's something I can work with and use as information to change the interaction the way I want it to go.
I am not an expert in calling, interpreting and distinguishing my emotions. Less or more I can understand how I feel, but my emotions are very complex, so I am not able to understand what components create this complex. Every person has a different experience of life and everyone feels differently. When I say that I feel pain in my soul you can only guess what I feel. Your pain of the soul will never be the same as my pain of the soul, and vice versa. It may be a million or more of the feelings of joy, anger, pain, jealousy. For the horse this is a chaos. Therefore, I am of the opinion that going to the horse emotions are beyond the pasture.
If on the other hand in a situation where I wasn't really sure of myself, I would tell Mucki that I am strong and he needed to stop something just because I say so, he would simply ignore me, because I wasn't authentic.
So, what I'm trying to say is that there is no use for me NOT explaining to Mucki that I am afraid when I am, because he would know it anyway
. So for me, it's better (and nicer) to admit my shortcomings in such a moment. That way, I can become strong and certain again, because I know what I feel and why, I'm authentic again and can deal with the situation before me in an appropriate way...
You are a master! Thank you
I agree with you. But now, I am not strong enough to do this like you
When I lost by one second it is very difficult for me find myself back in this situation. I need to practice, practice, practice, practice.... Rose
However, it also means that you can influence the horse to become excited, calm, or happy, depending on yourself. Of course, the horse still has their own emotions, mind, and experiences, so it isn't possible to have the horse entirely match yours, but it can at least influence them.
And that is what I want to avoid. I leave my horses free will and do not want to affect on them by my emotions. Neither good emotions nor bad emotions. That's what I'm saying all the time is inner peace, it is a state of mind and body where there is no place for excitement or fear. Here is inner calm and quiet joy of being.
Horses very easily perceive our emotions. I think that horses are smart enough to tell when those emotions are directed at them or not, too. Horse can tell when you're mad at them, or at something else.
I disagree Ali
I disagree with this , from countless things I have observed with my beautiful horses , but also from others that I have read on here . I am not saying horses always react to emotions in the exactly same way as humans , because they are not humans , and not they are all the same . But this does not mean they are capable of complex emotion , or aware of it . In fact I believe horses are even more sensitive to emotions , however complex , than humans .
Dear Ali, yes- horses are very sensitive animals, and they have a great capacity for empathy, but this ability causes great chaos. The horse is not aware of my emotions more than myself. The horse is not clairvoyant, doesn't know my past and does not understand why and from where comming my strange feeling for him, and this causes chaos.
Imagine you had friend and you offered to do something that you wanted to do , or just started doing something that seemed fun , or were scared of something that you perceive you be a threat to life , but friend completely ignored this and stone walled you and said NO to whatever you were saying or doing and never explaining themselves
I see it differently. If always I keep my inner peace here is no problem. I am someone on who horses can rely on. So if I do not see any reason to fear that the horse will not be afraid. If the horse is afraid it means that he doesn't trust you, that you are someone on whom he can not rely on. Here you have to go to home and ask yourself another question and then go back to the beginning of the relationship with the horse. This is what I'm doing now.
In the authenticity there is no room for questions when we are with horses.
Could you please explain what you mean by this ?, this must be very exhausting for you .
Exhausting was philosophies, constant thinking, figuring out the different solutions, continuous questioning, for which there is no clear answer. Figuring out what to do my horse when I do that or that.This led me nowhere.
The only solution for me was to learn how to live here and now. Tai chi is very helpful, I do teakwondo also. There is no place for asking questions and reflecting on my emotions. Tai chi teachs me how to keep the peace of mind and enjoy the joy of life, to embrace life, to have self-awareness and inner peace. Horses love it. And only if I'm in such a state of mind I'm capable of real relationship with the horse. They feel the joy and peace of mind, because they find their missing part in me and I become someone special for them
So now he does not jump into me for my attention , rather he stands to the side stamping his foot waiting for me to come and give him a portion of oats
This is good
Much the same work the word "no" without translation "why not"