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Working with the Horse's Initiative
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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:54 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
He :)
I didn't read all links as a whole, but I'm thinking that the most important things (when I will have more time I will read the whole).

My opnion about encouraging politesess http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=3435
I think this is a very important part of the relationship with the horse. When I realized that my Princess does not understand what I'm saying to her, when I ask for a some movement- step back or take her rumb I started looking for different methods and Parelli again. To our relations weren't good enough we do only the dominance game, but very important element is mutual respect and a willingness to this. I don't like Parelli, I don't like his pressure phase and his philosophy, but I knew that his games are important for my relations with my horses. I began to combine and figured out a way to make 7 games. And it looks like Your encouraging politeness, but I called it differently- I called this "Art of Seduction". And I use this when I ask my horse to move, that he takes off his rumb, or goes back or even to sideways, and I am sure that well done and dynamic art of seduction becomes a real dance with horses. From my observations I see that horses really like it and they don't feel "push" and don't feel like to be submissive. I think that horses really like it, but I am sure to do this perfectly a man has to be aware of his body langueage. Horses mirroring us and this is good game for them. I and my horses, we do Parelli games by that means.

Volker, You said:

Quote:
Our interaction is of course defined by rules. Each one of us has rights and obligations. One clear obligation for example is not to hurt the other.

In my opinion horses doesn't understand this as people. Dogs are diffrent- when I play with my dogs, they bit me and they have sence, how hard they can do it and I do not have to explain it to them. With horses is diffrent, horse doesn't understand when he stands on my leg he hurt me. Then I can do a lot of things- I can cry, be sad, try to push him away or shout. Horse does not understand my reactions.
And I agree with You that rules are at first- don't hurt the other, but as I say before, a horse isn't able to understand why, because in the herd, horses bit and kick all the time and this is a play, horses aren't delicate in dominance game when they play together and of that our reactions of their dominance behavior is incomprehensible, and of that teach a horse good maners (which are understand otherwise than by us- for a horse they have diffrent meanig than for us) is very very important to stay alive and safe :) A horse doesn't understand that he plays with me for fun and he kicks me in my head I will die....horse never understands thats things.

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I try to separate times when learning takes place from times when we apply already learned behaviour. It is most of the times a fuzzy line, but my principle is that when I "teach" a behaviour, it is my obligation to set the situation up for success. I try to encourage every initiative, to reward success and not punish failure. Otherwise I have to deal with the horses' frustration one way or another. I cannot really blame my horse for that, after all I want something from him - he didn't ask for it.

Thank You, this is good idea. I try set the situation for success, but sometimes can not be (I'm not perfect ;) )
The reasons may be diffrent. The last time I read about the "amnesia" in animals, which always occurs at some stage in the familiar task. This phase ends with rebellion. A good trainer knows when this point is reached, but like I said, I am not perfect...and sometimes I make misteakes. But sometimes is that it isn't "amnesia" time, and sometimes it looks like a small girl loves paint, and she paints becautiful pictures and she goes to her mom, and asks her if this is beautiful, and her mom says that yes, this is very beautuful, and after this the same girl wants to only hear that she is grate, and she paints again, but this time she does scribbles and she goes to her mom with scribbles, which is very ugly, and this small girl knows that this is ugly, and what should her mom say to her? The true- that this is ugly- this is my opinion. The diffrent reason is that sometimes horses wants to a peace of carrot for undone task which he undersnatd and is very simple to this horse, then the horse tests you, if you are able change your rules on his rules.

Quote:
With Mucki I have established a "play mode", where he is at liberty (or neck rope) and a "work mode" where he is on a lead rope. In the latter case, I still try to work with his own initiative as much as possible, but he knows that I might convince him to do things (like trotting on a circle) even if he is not too fond of it at the moment. Or that I might constrinct his movement like when we move through traffic. Still even in this mode, if he voices a strong objection, I try to accept that (if possible in the situation). I found that he has usually very plausible reasons for doing so and most of them are fear related.

In the "play mode", Mucki is free to join my games if he wants, he can also suggest his own game if I find it fun, or he can just quit and do whatever he wants. In such a situation I would never reprimand him for not doing as I want.

You know, this is good idea too, I think that I should try, thank You :f:

I have liitle time now,
Dear Anni, Kathia, Romy, Yogini I will back a few hours :) To be continue :f:


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:19 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Dear Anni,
Quote:
Ania, it's so nice to have you in the forum and it's interesting to discuss this topic with you because we haven't the same opinion. For me, that's where discussions get really fascinating :) . I remember my father taking over a completely different position when discussing with me just because he wants to make me think :funny: .

Thank You! I think the same- this, that we haven't the same opinion makes that we begin to debate and wonder and ponder and learn new things.
And, dear Anii, thank You for Your beautiful statement, it touched me very much :)
Quote:
What I mean with "leader" in the following is a person that decides what to do most of the time not only for himself but for others as well. I don't speak about the kind of leader that is chosen by others because of their ability to make the best decisions.

I join this.
Quote:
My goal was to build a peaceful interaction with the horse.

This my goal too :yes:
Quote:
So, when I can't build a peaceful interaction by becoming a leader then how can I build a peaceful interaction?

I think that this is possible to build peaceful interaction by being a leader:)
Because all the times when I am with horses:
1. I can do nothing
2. Or I can do something
When I do nothing, just stay and spend time with my horses, I'm not suggesting anything, but I am and I observe, the task was I couldn't touhg my horse by hand. And few years ago I could stay and stay and observe, and horses came, peeling, licked me. Today when I come to them and I do absolutely nothing, Princess goes to me and she begins play. If I do not respond, I will stand or meditate in her presence she will "eat" me ;) She will rip my clothes :) She can't stay at one place by one second and do nothing. With Princess this is impossible :D She wants to do something all the time. And if nothing will be suggested she come up with her own fun. If I hold a halter in my hand,, she will be bitting halter, and this is ok for me (this is her free time and I am safe, I'm not going to stop her fun and I don't need to suggested anything), but if I haven't halter and she begin "eat" my hair or shoes I need to react and ask her about something. But in the first and the second case I am a leader because I control safety of this situation. I am a leader even when I do absolutely nothing.

Quote:
It is important to find the way I can feel good about, I can be confident about.

For me this is a leader :) If we know how to manage our behavior, not to hurt others (peoples and horses) and at the same time accept ourselves and do just that, with what feel good and at the same time, we are confident in our decisions and are not afraid to make errors- As for me, these are the characteristics of a leader.

I think that we are talking about the same but we call it differently.

Quote:
Who I am isn't static because sometimes I find out that I don't like the way I behave in a situation. Then I try to find out how I would rather behave, I search for thoughts that are more useful to behave in another way and then I can change my feelings, my thoughts and my behaviour. I think within this process my personality is developing and it is good to know that I can change for the better.

I understan You :) I know what it meant. But now I think that I made progress, because I'm not afraid of making mistakes and I'm not afraid of the consequences, but still always feel guilty. But I better cope with this feeling than before. For me, one of the hardest things was to learn to say "no" (for humans, for dogs, for horses). I could never refuse, always done against my will, because I was afraid that I will hurt someone if I refuse or deny. Therapy taught me that I do not have to explain to people, horses, anyone. My answer should be short- "No,and this is my decision" And no one should be offended, because I do not have to explain to anyone.

About this link : http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4436
Without personal development does not have good relationships with people, horses and other animals. I found out about this on my own skin. I realized something else, that not all things speak to everybody. I remember slander about Christianity and the Bible, that this book is stupid and cruel God of the old testament on the NHE forum ;) All the time they were saying that Christianity is limited personal development and the one true way is Buddhism or gnosis. I do not criticize any religion, every religion is important, and I treat all with equal respect. Personally, I am a Christian, while vegetarian.
Today I understand how big influence has relligion- on way on understanding, sensivity, way of seeing. I believe that God created the horse as he is, I do not believe in evolution. If I believed in evolution my relationship with horses would be based on different principles or if I'd be a Buddhist, I will call the same things by other name. These are just examples :)

Quote:
One of these rules is that I take care of myself first, that I have to make sure that I'm fine. That may seem selfish and yes, it is selfish - but with a reason. When I'm not fine but instead feeling weak, ill, have self-doubts, am tired, angry, fearful, then I am not able to control my self and behave in a way that others can take advantage of me. When I'm not fine I can't make someone else feel good. Therefore, I must take care of myself, first.
The second rule is that I try to prevent that I harm others with my bad condition. When I feel bad this is my problem and nothing someone else has to solve for me. What I do is that I tell others that I don't feel as good as normally, for example because I have pain. Than sometimes, when the one is able to (because he's feeling good enough) and wants to, he will offer to help me. That is nothing that is a matter of course, in my opinion, but just a very lovely act I'm thankful for. When I think I really need help I ask someone who is strong enough to help me. But first I make sure that the one feels good.

Yes, I agree with you, Anni :) Beautiful said :f:

About horses:
You said so many beautiful things, that I haven't nothing to add :love:
But,
Quote:
You see, there are many rules even though I don't perceive myself as a leader.

Quote:
My goal is a "rule" that I don't only make with myself but therefor I need the agreement of the other being.

The second sentence for me, these are the qualities of a good leader :thumright:

Quote:
I do what I feel like to do - but it's my business.

This is good, but with my Princess impossible :) She needs my attention....

Quote:
That is why I try not to tell someone that what he does is wrong. Instead I search for statements that help to improve what the other one is doing, for example "You can try this" or better "Let us try this".

I wrote about this in the aboce post, but yes- You are right, in most cases, when we learn new things or we record the things that have been learned recently the best solution are Your examples: "You can try this" and "Let us try this".

Dear Katja,
Quote:
I prefer creating situations in which every participant is eager to say "yes",because that is what I want. A horse/ human that likes to spend time with me. And for me it therefore is esential to have an equal-based communication.

I dream about such relationships with horses that everything I know about them, and I will not make a situation that they say "no" or I say "no" :) But I don't know if it is posiible, because we- horses and humans are creatures that change, we gain new experiences and beliefs.


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:14 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:57 pm
Posts: 149
Wind of change wrote:
A horse doesn't understand that he plays with me for fun and he kicks me in my head I will die....horse never understands thats things.

I am not sure about this point - I agree with you that horses cannot understand the physical aspect of what happens if they kick at us but I think that they are able to notice how we feel. So if we have pain or are afraid to be harmed by wild play the horse knows this (or at least knows that we are unsure about it) and will react to it. There are many possible reactions, for example that the horse is unsure as well, will be more careful with us, refuse to play wild games or will be wild nevertheless. I can focus on the reactions of the horse to my emotions and support behaviour which with I can feel comfortable, and of course the other way around as well - I focus on the emotions of the horse and behave in a way the horse can feel comfortable.

Wind of change wrote:
The last time I read about the "amnesia" in animals, which always occurs at some stage in the familiar task. This phase ends with rebellion.

Can you tell me more about this? I don't really understand what you mean :blush: .

Wind of change wrote:
But sometimes is that it isn't "amnesia" time, and sometimes it looks like a small girl loves paint, and she paints becautiful pictures and she goes to her mom, and asks her if this is beautiful, and her mom says that yes, this is very beautuful, and after this the same girl wants to only hear that she is grate, and she paints again, but this time she does scribbles and she goes to her mom with scribbles, which is very ugly, and this small girl knows that this is ugly, and what should her mom say to her? The true- that this is ugly- this is my opinion.

For me there is more than merely beautiful and ugly - there is wild, crazy, smart, creative, nice, interesting, funny, inspiring and so on. If I tell this little girl that her painting is ugly, then will she be motivated to make a better painting and show it to me? I were not. I don't want to make beautiful paintings all the times. Sometimes I want them to look crazy, to look dull, to look funny. And sometimes I just want a little bit of my mothers attention, or a little praise but haven't found a way to get it without doing something I don't want to do at that moment. Or just want to show her that I can do differently. And then she tells me that my painting is ugly, that she does not like what I'm doing at all.

I think how much effort the horse puts into his actions is influenced by how motivated the horse is. And when it comes to things the horse does primarily because I like them, then I am responsible for the motivation as well, not only the horse. That is why I would not judge about it as "ugly" when the horse does something with less effort than usually. I would still like it and tell this to the horse and if I want the horse to make a "beautiful painting" the next time, then I try to provide more motivation again.

Wind of change wrote:
But in the first and the second case I am a leader because I control safety of this situation.

I don't understand what these situations have to do with safety? Can you explain it for me?

Wind of change wrote:
Therapy taught me that I do not have to explain to people, horses, anyone. My answer should be short- "No,and this is my decision" And no one should be offended, because I do not have to explain to anyone.

I use the "No, and this is my decision"-statement as well (not very often, because most there is no reason for saying "no") but I only use it when I talk about myself, for example "No, I don't want to play" or "No, I don't want to be touched". But I don't understand why it is a problem to tell others about the Why as well. How can they change the situation for the better and make me say "Yes" when I don't let them know why I said "No"?
Don't get me wrong: I don't think that I have to explain to anyone. But for me a lonely "No" is like a wall - you can't go any further. On the contrary, a "No, because I am afraid that I will be hurt when we play wildly" or a "No, because I feel uncomfortable when you touch me" opens up the possibility to deal with the reasons. Then the other one can change his behaviour until I feel that there is no problem with agreeing to play wildly or to be touched. We both could change the situation for the better, we both know a little bit more about the other one, we both can trust each other. There are so many advantages of the Why that I don't want to refuse to let others know about it.

:f:


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:28 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Dear Anni,

Quote:
I am not sure about this point - I agree with you that horses cannot understand the physical aspect of what happens if they kick at us but I think that they are able to notice how we feel. So if we have pain or are afraid to be harmed by wild play the horse knows this (or at least knows that we are unsure about it) and will react to it. There are many possible reactions, for example that the horse is unsure as well, will be more careful with us, refuse to play wild games or will be wild nevertheless. I can focus on the reactions of the horse to my emotions and support behaviour which with I can feel comfortable, and of course the other way around as well - I focus on the emotions of the horse and behave in a way the horse can feel comfortable.

Yes, horses are able to notice what we feel very very well, but in my opinion horses haven't such diverse emotions as humans, and they are not aware of these emotions at this level as humans. Horses are aware of what they feel but these emotions are only here and now. My pain will never be understood by the horse in this way, how I understand this. My fear this is my fear and horse, very sensitive horse get crazy. My feelings aren't able to raise grief in horse. Never.
So many times I observed when Princess is jumed around me and wants to kick me, not because of my affraid (because I don't scare now, I can be completely muted) but because of her fun and her ecstasy. In this example this is only joy, in this case a horse hasn't agressive intentions- this is normal while playing horse with a horse. At in this case only what I can do is stay relax and teach my horse to keep the distance.
Of course they can be other examples when the horse is angry and wants to hurt us....

About "amnesia"
What I learned from the book that this offen occurs when clicker training. It consists in the fact that when we learn the animal new things, when he does good, then we click and then we reward this animal. And repeat the task, then we reward less frequently, then check whether the animal understands, then gradually require more. But the true is that during this stage the animal's reaction is not fully conscious. This is the first stage, when animal learns new thing. Animal can do it by few days and it seems to us that this animal understands everything, because he does everything correctly. This can be compared to the way when a child reciting a poem from memory, but does not understand its meaning.
And then is the second phase. Animal, in one moment, forget everything. This is due to the fact that he do something but he doesn't understanding what he is doing. Usually it accompanied by strong emotions in the form of rebellion.
Then, there is 3 phase - a full understanding of what he is doing, animal becomes fully aware of the task.
Amnesia phase is always painful for the animal, it is a kind of shock, human task is to understand and be tolerant and to know how to relieve the animal's pain.
I learned this from a Karen Pryor's book. She deals with clicker training by long times.

Quote:
For me there is more than merely beautiful and ugly - there is wild, crazy, smart, creative, nice, interesting, funny, inspiring and so on. If I tell this little girl that her painting is ugly, then will she be motivated to make a better painting and show it to me? I were not. I don't want to make beautiful paintings all the times. Sometimes I want them to look crazy, to look dull, to look funny. And sometimes I just want a little bit of my mothers attention, or a little praise but haven't found a way to get it without doing something I don't want to do at that moment. Or just want to show her that I can do differently. And then she tells me that my painting is ugly, that she does not like what I'm doing at all.

I think how much effort the horse puts into his actions is influenced by how motivated the horse is. And when it comes to things the horse does primarily because I like them, then I am responsible for the motivation as well, not only the horse. That is why I would not judge about it as "ugly" when the horse does something with less effort than usually. I would still like it and tell this to the horse and if I want the horse to make a "beautiful painting" the next time, then I try to provide more motivation again.


I think that You misunderstood me. I will give you 3 examples.
1. During clicker training (1)
Perchaps when I teach my horse spanish walk, and it isn't "amnesia" time and my horse do not loose motivation and my horse does four wonderful spanish steps and then I klick and horse has reward. And again, and again and then horse makes 2 wonderful spanich steps and 2 normal steps (but I asked about four spanis steps) and then horse wants to get a reward and I can't give him. Because the training will be wasted (this is example when small girl painted ugly).
2. During clicker training (2)
I ask about 4 spanish steps but my horse looses motivation. Then I have to give him reward not after 4, but after 1 spanish step or even after 0 spanish steps.
3. Without clicker training
Is exactly as you say, I agree with you. I personally am in favor of teaching a horse without clicker training. I tried for a while, but this seems to me to be very mechanical. My horses learn quickly, very quickly, but after some figuring out, I came to the conclusion that I care about something deeper, on something that can not be with clicker training.
Maybe I will be use it in some cases, but this day I am sure that my relationship with horses will not be based only on it.

Quote:
I don't understand what these situations have to do with safety? Can you explain it for me?

Everything what I am doing with my horses or when I do absolutely nothing I have to be absolutely calm. Even when I say, that I do nothing with my horses, still I do something, because I controll myself to be calm. I can't stay and think about what I do for dinner or what it was yesterday. If I loose my control and I stop be here and now, my Princess probably goes to fury and it will not be safe for us. For that I say that I am a leader all the time, because I shape good mood and I shape the security situation. I am someone on whom the horse can rely on and feel safe.
I control myself when she bits halter which I hold in my hand and I control myself and herself when she bits my hair or shoes. I control myself when she jumps around me and I control mysel and herself when she is too close. All the time I control safety and good mood each situation. Sometimes I have to respond by the body signals, and sometimes I don't need it.
If I did nothing when she "eats me" I will feel threatened, and Princess will senses this and it does not make sense for me and for her.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong: I don't think that I have to explain to anyone. But for me a lonely "No" is like a wall - you can't go any further. On the contrary, a "No, because I am afraid that I will be hurt when we play wildly" or a "No, because I feel uncomfortable when you touch me" opens up the possibility to deal with the reasons. Then the other one can change his behaviour until I feel that there is no problem with agreeing to play wildly or to be touched. We both could change the situation for the better, we both know a little bit more about the other one, we both can trust each other. There are so many advantages of the Why that I don't want to refuse to let others know about it.

Life has taugh me that most people do not understand my translations and still pushes me, they want to convince me to their opinion, this is tiring for me, I lose time and energy and I start to feel guilty. I translate only when I'm with my husband or a person with whom I feel safe.
But to the horses I will not explain because it does not make sense. What should I say? Do not go into the street because a car hits you? Do not eat so much grass because you will be have laminitis? Do not push up on me, because I fall down? I do not want you waved your hooves before my eyes, because you can kill me and that is why you have to go back? For me it can makes sense, but for horse it will never makes a sense.
I think that is better to use only one word- "no". For a man it means "no", for a horse this means "stop doing what you are doing".


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:26 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Quote:
On the contrary, a "No, because I am afraid that I will be hurt when we play wildly" or a "No, because I feel uncomfortable when you touch me" opens up the possibility to deal with the reasons. Then the other one can change his behaviour until I feel that there is no problem with agreeing to play wildly or to be touched. We both could change the situation for the better, we both know a little bit more about the other one, we both can trust each other. There are so many advantages of the Why that I don't want to refuse to let others know about it.


I had not thought about it yesterday, but today I realized how it is important and relevant to You and to others.
When I taking NHE others similarly explained it to me. That was the main reason for misunderstanding between me and Princess. I don't know Your horses, I can't say nothing about them. But Princess is a mare, but she behaves like a stallion. She presents the characteristics of the stallion- she shows everything how clean the mirror pane. She is very sensitive. So of that with my Princess it is impossible feel afraid when I am near her and it is impossible say her: "No, because I am afraid that I will be hurt when we play wildly" or a "No, because I feel uncomfortable when you touch me"
I can't feel afraid and under any circumstances, she will not accept my explanations, because my explanations worsen the whole situation- she sensed my uncertainty gets crazy.
When I am with her I have to be extremely strong internally, extremely confident myself and my decisions and extremely muted. I have to be here and now, focus on us and I can not get out of sync. Because when I get out of sync Princess will lost and she will feel uncertainty. And if I will see the uncertainty in her then everything lost. At the moment I do not have enough experience to be able to act in such situations.
This horse is a bomb, which need to be handled very gently.
I thought about it a lot, but in my private life I'm a lot like her. For years, I tried to find out what happened in my life, I'm so very sensitive. I am oversensitive. Increasingly understand that in my life, nothing happened like that, what could made this with me. I was born this, like Princess. I wasn't a person who chosen Princess, I chosen Pagoda and Pagoda birth Princess, but Princess chosen me. That surprice and the gift from the life :)


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:10 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:55 am
Posts: 117
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Wind of change wrote:
I think that You misunderstood me. I will give you 3 examples.
1. During clicker training (1)
Perchaps when I teach my horse spanish walk, and it isn't "amnesia" time and my horse do not loose motivation and my horse does four wonderful spanish steps and then I klick and horse has reward. And again, and again and then horse makes two wonderful spanish steps and two normal steps (but I asked about four spanis steps) and then horse wants to get a reward and I can't give him. Because the training will be wasted (this is example when small girl painted ugly).

Now this is interesting. I think the consideration of a "wasted training" depends on how you define a succesful training. For me, the main goal wouldn't be the four spanish steps correctly performed. For me, it would be a horse who loves to do spanish walks, no matter how often, just because he finds joy in this exercise. So whenever it does the spanish walks less enthusiastic, I would praise him as well as I did when performing before, because I want to show, that he is allowed and wanted to do, what he likes and also to end what he doesn't like anymore. And I hardly believe that the horse would NOT have lost motivation if he only offers 4 steps. So the idea behind this is that I reward a „No“ as well as a "Yes", so that we don't fall into a „right and wrong“ kind of thinking. The result I want to reach with this, is a confident horse, who can find joy in our interaction because of his freedom and our mutual agreement about giving each other a voice.

Wind of change wrote:
Even when I say, that I do nothing with my horses, still I do something, because I controll myself to be calm. I can't stay and think about what I do for dinner or what it was yesterday. If I loose my control and I stop be here and now, my Princess probably goes to fury and it will not be safe for us.

Can you explain, why you think you need to be calm when being with horses?
I think that the safety cues should work, when getting more wildly. But when we learned via micro shaping to refocus the horse on us when needed, then for me the next step could be to get wild. And this includes stronger emotions and more tension, as well as sometimes getting less and less attached to each other (in the meaning of distancyand between us). This is nothing bad for me, instead it even is a goal I want to reach. Wildness also can be something very safe, when you are able to keep up a constant and fine thread of flooding of communication between you and your horse, especially when a situation arises, where you need more focus again.

Wind of change wrote:
I control myself when she bits halter which I hold in my hand and I control myself and herself when she bits my hair or shoes.

What exactly do you mean by controlling yourself then?

Wind of change wrote:
But to the horses I will not explain because it does not make sense. What should I say? Do not go into the street because a car hits you? Do not eat so much grass because you will be have laminitis?

I think that with "explaining" Anni meant more something like you say "No, because I don't feel good with it" but then you offer something NEW that could be done. Like "Biting hurts me and makes me feel unwell. So, here is a branch, you could bite in if you like to?" Of course, you can't explain to the horse in a verbal way, why he should'nt do xy, but by offering alternatives, the No-Wall won't get built up and it es easy for you to stay positive and to find solutions for that problem.

Wind of change wrote:
She is very sensitive. So of that with my Princess it is impossible feel afraid when I am near her and it is impossible say her: "No, because I am afraid that I will be hurt when we play wildly" or a "No, because I feel uncomfortable when you touch me". I can't feel afraid and under any circumstances, she will not accept my explanations, because my explanations worsen the whole situation- she sensed my uncertainty gets crazy.

Concerning how to deal with scared and sensitive horses, there are already very nice ideas here in the forum. I will try to sum them up for you a bit.

1. Inviting and relaxed body language
When dealing with sensitive horses, I focus on doing as much as possible by asking the horse to move towards me, and not so much by him to move away from me. That is, when I want the horse to move, I don't push with my body language but only draw. For example, for asking the horse to move his frontquarters, I slowly step away and move my hips into the direction of the movement, making room for the horse to follow. This is soothing the pressure that may be caused by using a pushing and strong body language.

2. Let the horse become a confident intiator
As I described above, I reward every initiative from the horse. If I have asked something and he offers something different, I reward that as well. When using longer waiting times between the rewards, I make it possible for the horse to be active on his own. That is so important, because if the initiative comes from the horses side, it feels more confident about this decision, as it probably would when someone would try to convince him about going through this situation. The initiator thing was already nicel described here. What may also be interesting in this context, is to see scaring situations as a chance to make a game out of it. For example, when Princess is scared of the halter, you could start by seing the halter as something so great, that it belongs to you. It has nothing to do with her, the focus isn't set on her. So when you move towards her and she shows the slightest reaction of fear, you immediatly move away. This has two effects:
First, she realizes, that there is no need to flee, because you already did that for her.
Second, the interest for the halter will grow as soon as she notices, that you think it is soo great, that you even take it away from her. This inverse aproach offers the possibility for her to get active and curious on her own and once she comes nearer to look at this great thing, of course you can praise her like she was a superhero :applause:. This may be helpful to make her an confident and self-reliant partner, by not treating her as a victim of her fear.

3. Inverted approach to fear

Staying calm is the solution when we think that this statewill transfer to the horse and help him to calm down as well. But the problem with it can be that the horse can get disengaged from you and start doing his own thing, as your energy levels simply don't fit together. So, when Princess is spooky and therefore fast, I am even faster. For example, you can ask for immediate reactions, such as trot, stop, walk on, trot,turn over and so on. Within a short time the horse will get focused again and more concentrated on you.The concept behind it is that you use the horses actual behaviour and give it another meaning.

So, I hope that it was maybe at least a little bit interesting for you and I would be glad to read what you think about it and your ideas to what else I wrote :f:


Last edited by Katja1 on Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:27 pm 
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Wind of change wrote:
My feelings aren't able to raise grief in horse. Never.
In the time since I have horses, I became more and more humble when assessing the cognitive or emotional capabilites of animals. I found that their ways of understanding the world are definitely deeper than I originally thought, that I don't dare to say anymore what they can feel or what they cannot. I just know that they never cease to amaze me in so many ways :).
Besides, scientific research progresses every year, often with astounding changes to the way we see the world. It was actually not so long ago that newborns were not given anaesthetics during surgeries, because it was the scientific opinion that newborns cannot feel pain the way we do. We have come a long way since then and I'm sure we will have to go a much, much longer road still, until we can say we understand what animals can feel :f:

But what's more important for me in my interaction with my horse is not any kind of objective knowledge - if that's ever possible - but my subjective view of the situation at hand. It's me communicating with that horse, so only I can change the dialog if I want it so.
My own feelings are in so far important, as they are the one thing that I'm an expert in. How the horse is really feeling and why he is acting how he does, is up to speculation. I can never be entirely sure of that. But if I feel angry, or scared, or whatever - that's something I can work with and use as information to change the interaction the way I want it to go.

Wind of change wrote:
I can't feel afraid and under any circumstances, she will not accept my explanations, because my explanations worsen the whole situation- she sensed my uncertainty gets crazy.
I experienced it like this with Mucki: he reads (and mirrors) me very well. In fact so well that I can hardly disguise my feelings or pretend to be stronger than I am. So I stopped to pretend, and admitted (also to Mucki) when I'm scared of his wild outbursts and also showed it openly when I'm overjoyed.
Of course, also with Mucki I had to learn how to face certain situation and not be afraid, but when I succeeded at that, I was genuinely strong then and so there wasn't any need for explanations anymore.
If on the other hand in a situation where I wasn't really sure of myself, I would tell Mucki that I am strong and he needed to stop something just because I say so, he would simply ignore me, because I wasn't authentic.

So, what I'm trying to say is that there is no use for me NOT explaining to Mucki that I am afraid when I am, because he would know it anyway ;). So for me, it's better (and nicer) to admit my shortcomings in such a moment. That way, I can become strong and certain again, because I know what I feel and why, I'm authentic again and can deal with the situation before me in an appropriate way...

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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:55 pm 
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Horses do have emotions- it's simply a question of which ones, and how they respond to them. As far as how many, it's clear that they can get scared, angry, excited, and happy. I personally believe that horses have all of the emotional complexities of humans- maybe not the ability to process them as well, but at least be able to feel them. Horses, being very social animals, can change others' opinions. For example, when one is scared, the rest become scared, too. It's a very smart survival technique, because if one see danger that the others don't, the one can alert the rest. This can be a good or bad thing for people. For people who get easily frustrated and can't control that, it becomes difficult to keep the horse from responding. However, it also means that you can influence the horse to become excited, calm, or happy, depending on yourself. Of course, the horse still has their own emotions, mind, and experiences, so it isn't possible to have the horse entirely match yours, but it can at least influence them.

As to how the horses responds to them, it depends on how aware horses are of these emotions, and how they process them. I think that horses are just as aware as us of our emotions. I don't really know how they process them, though. If anyone has any ideas or experiences, I would love to hear them.

Another thing about emotions is in horses' ability to associate. Horses very easily associate things with events, other horses/people, emotions, etc. Once again, this can be good or bad for the trainer. If the horse is always happy when you are around, they associate you with happiness, so they choose to be around you. If they associate you with being scared, though, they will most likely run away when they see you coming up to them in a pasture.

Horses very easily perceive our emotions. I think that horses are smart enough to tell when those emotions are directed at them or not, too. Horse can tell when you're mad at them, or at something else.

I'd love to hear you guy's ideas on this. Sorry if I went on for a bit, but this is an interesting topic for me... :sun:


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:40 pm 
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Firstly I would like to welcome you :) , as It seems that I have missed your introduction ,' :ieks: '.

Quote:
Yes, horses are able to notice what we feel very very well, but in my opinion horses haven't such diverse emotions as humans, and they are not aware of these emotions at this level as humans. Horses are aware of what they feel but these emotions are only here and now. My pain will never be understood by the horse in this way, how I understand this. My fear this is my fear and horse, very sensitive horse get crazy. My feelings aren't able to raise grief in horse. Never


I disagree with this , from countless things I have observed with my beautiful horses , but also from others that I have read on here . I am not saying horses always react to emotions in the exactly same way as humans , because they are not humans , and not they are all the same . But this does not mean they are capable of complex emotion , or aware of it . In fact I believe horses are even more sensitive to emotions , however complex , than humans .

Maybe it is just me , but it always seems that people make a lot unnecessary fuss about the horses relationship and what you should do in X situation and in Y situation , and what if N situation happens . For me the only thought I need to have about any interaction whether it is with a human or horse , is to imagine how I would feel in this situation (empathy).I You may say horses are not humans so this does not count , but from what I have observed my reactions to a situation is very similar to my horses . Imagine you had friend and you offered to do something that you wanted to do , or just started doing something that seemed fun , or were scared of something that you perceive you be a threat to life , but friend completely ignored this and stone walled you and said NO to whatever you were saying or doing and never explaining themselves . In my case I would not care for this person much .As I would feel the relationship is non-productive for me , actually destructive , and this is something that is unhealthy to be around . So I would tell the person to please change there attitude , and if they ignored me I would ask them to leave (if they were in my house ) , if they continued to ignore this I would say it louder and louder until I had to call the police . Now imagine how I would say this if I could not speak or write and walked on four legs :smile:

Quote:
Even when I say, that I do nothing with my horses, still I do something, because I controll myself to be calm. I can't stay and think about what I do for dinner or what it was yesterday. If I loose my control and I stop be here and now, my Princess probably goes to fury and it will not be safe for us
.

Could you please explain what you mean by this ?, this must be very exhausting for you . I could never have my relationships like this as I would never be comfortable , or able to relax or enjoy myself . I would always have the pressure on me to stay completely calm , even when this is a completely unnatural thing to do . This also brings the question to mind of how horses perceive this in a dangerous situation . Like say there is a tractor moving though the forest on a path that you can barely see though the trees , the horse does not know what this is , and perceives this to be a threat to his life . Again it comes down to a simple question , Who would you prefer with you if you were in the jungle and saw a tiger/leopard in the forest - someone who proactively looks with you and is also concerned and get prepared , or someone who completely ignores you and carries on blindly not registering the possible danger. Even though the tiger/leopard is not real , this recognition of your feelings , and respect of them makes the situation a lot less scary .

Quote:
But to the horses I will not explain because it does not make sense. What should I say? Do not go into the street because a car hits you? Do not eat so much grass because you will be have laminitis? Do not push up on me, because I fall down? I do not want you waved your hooves before my eyes, because you can kill me and that is why you have to go back? For me it can makes sense, but for horse it will never makes a sense.
I think that is better to use only one word- "no". For a man it means "no", for a horse this means "stop doing what you are doing".


What I would do in a situation where I felt like this was seriously dangerous for me is simply remove myself from the pasture (if we were in the pasture ). Or I will wave my arms or a twig around me , slowly , clearly stating that you can carry on with what you are doing if you want , but please do it out of my space . Hence I am not controlling him or making him to what I want for ''safety'' , I am simply controlling myself :smile: An important part of this for me is that it goes both ways , that he can say no , or ask me to leave his space , in the same unconfrontational way that I can . This is completely different from being the boss , as they can do as they wish , I am just in charge of myself , meaning if I really do not like the situation I can leave . I have never done this with my horses though , as I have never feared so much around them .
What I would do when a horse is snapping at me is exactly what Romy describes in encouraging politeness thread .
With my little Bug , he went though a stage where he wanted to bite and jump on everything , and when we played he would always always be snapping at me like a little crocodile . But this for me was fine , actually it was really fun to have such a strict teacher in being faster and offering interesting things to do :love: . He has stopped biting nearly completely now , simply because he does not see the point in doing it . There is always a reason why a horse bites , and it is a matter of finding what this is and working with the pony to provide him with another means of saying what he want , as in one case with bug , what he would do when he wanted my attention is jump into me . So when I saw him out of the corner of my eye coming to me , I would stop him and ask him to paw , so he saw that it was easier and better to get my attention by pawing , instead of biting . So now he does not jump into me for my attention , rather he stands to the side stamping his foot waiting for me to come and give him a portion of oats 8)

:f:


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:01 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
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Dear Katja :)
Quote:
how you define a succesful training.

I think I was misunderstood. In most of the examples I was talking about clicker traing. I am sorry, my fault, because I didn't explained that I did it only for 1 week. I gave up because I realized that it does not make sense. Shapes behavior, but these are tricks, that have nothing to do with a real connection with the horse. The horse does something because he knows that he will get a delicacy. Totally pointless. These are not real relationship with the horse.
Perchaps spanish walk, when we teach a horse spanish walk with clicker training, the horse will not feel real pride. The horse is not going to do the spanish steps because he loves them, but because he wants to get praise or reward in the form of food.
Now I'm not giving treats as done or not done task. The exception is trimming hooves, where the horse need to be in focus for a long time. Besides I like to give treats for nothing, just suddenly give delicacy.
7 years before I did what most of you are doing here. It's all NHE. Maybe a little modified. I was doing that by 5 years.
From two years I am sure that my horses need a leader and I stopped with NHE. For me, this is a good start, but now I have to add more to my relationship with horses. NHE does not create a real bond with the horse. These are the usual tricks. Learned behaviors, it is not a true bond. What about the fact that the horse is always right, and that he can express its opinion. It's not enough to create a real bond with the horse.
Today I put off all trenings and I focus on other. Next year I will return to training, maybe. Meybe for two years. I don't know.

Quote:
Can you explain, why you think you need to be calm when being with horses?

To form a bond with the horse. An invisible line that we are all connected.

Quote:
What exactly do you mean by controlling yourself then?

I control to stay "here and now"

Quote:
"Biting hurts me and makes me feel unwell. So, here is a branch, you could bite in if you like to?"

I did this for 5 years. Today I know that distract the horse is not necessary. I would say even that is unnecessary. Although if a man does not see any other out of the situation , it is always a way out. But in the long run it leads nowhere. It is a vicious circle.
Besides in contact with the horse first and foremost I have to be myself. I can't be a puppet, which is made of my horses's pleasures. Only if I will find myself a horse regain peace and stop biting. The horse will find a quiet joy in relishing the moment.
Now what I wrote is not synonymous with speaking "no". Speaking to the horse "no" means "stop doing what you're doing now", and this is a task for the horse because this task at this point is to focus. The horse stops biting, focused and waiting for my next suggestion or praise. At this point, the horse is fully aware of his fucusing, provided that I am focused. Horse's pride reaches the sky. This is an agreement that creates a bond.

I think that to be with horses I need to be free from all my though, and then I will be at the state which is opposed to the state when diffrent thoughs penetrate my head, and only that state I can be full aware of being here and now. As a result I attain peace and quiet experience the joy of being.

Quote:
When dealing with sensitive horses, I focus on doing as much as possible by asking the horse to move towards me, and not so much by him to move away from me.

I agree with You, but only in certain situations.
Pagoda- If she is fairly calm what you write will work.
Pagoda- when she is scared of something, I have to do everything to not lose eye contact with her, I have to use my body langueage so that her attention was focused exclusively on me. It is quite difficult, because I do not have enough experience. In this case I ask about move away ( quaters or hindquaters) from me, and then quickly about fallow. This makes she stops to think about the threat and calms down (of course she calms down only when I am here and now and I am very very calm and I am full aware about this situation).
Princess- always, regardless of the situation this horse can not see any other requirements like to jump on my back. She wants to be close all the time. Too close. And I have to watch over the distance. I never had a problem to getting her she followed me, she would go with me to the end of the world, but the problem is that she feels better when she is 10 cm behind me, and I feel better when she is 1 meter behind me :)

Quote:
When using longer waiting times between the rewards, I make it possible for the horse to be active on his own. That is so important, because if the initiative comes from the horses side, it feels more confident about this decision, as it probably would when someone would try to convince him about going through this situation.

I think this isn't good idea. If you use rewards for a completed task and wait with them, this horse will guess what you mean. It will not be the initiative to play, but the guessing game to get a reward from you. He will be think- she would give me reward if I do something....
Quote:
For example, when Princess is scared of the halter, you could start by seing the halter as something so great, that it belongs to you. It has nothing to do with her, the focus isn't set on her. So when you move towards her and she shows the slightest reaction of fear, you immediatly move away. This has two effects:

Ok, this is good idea of every "scare" things for horses. I agree with You, you given very good examples. Thank You.
But I'll tell you personally that Princess never escapes when she is scared, she always attacks, as in a chase the tiger play ;)
she bites a halter out of boredom. This is a play for her. She will take everything in her mouth, bites blanket, tarps tear, bites my jacket, tears sweater. Just for fun....
Quote:
This may be helpful to make her an confident and self-reliant partner, by not treating her as a victim of her fear.

There is only one chance to make it happen. I have to be completely muted.

Quote:
Staying calm is the solution when we think that this statewill transfer to the horse and help him to calm down as well. But the problem with it can be that the horse can get disengaged from you and start doing his own thing, as your energy levels simply don't fit together. So, when Princess is spooky and therefore fast, I am even faster. For example, you can ask for immediate reactions, such as trot, stop, walk on, trot,turn over and so on. Within a short time the horse will get focused again and more concentrated on you.The concept behind it is that you use the horses actual behaviour and give it another meaning.

Thank you. I agree with you, but It took many years before I realized that it's not about the construction the level of my energy to match the level of energy that she has. My energy should be constant, all the time the same as in the arts of karate or teakwondo. I use my energy but at the same time I am very calm, because my energy is constant. Increasing the speed of movement of my body my spiritual energy is constant. It is not associated with experiencing emotions. If I keeping my inner energy in harmony, there will be no chaos, then the horse will be delighted with it and I will be a true leader, who will give the horse what he is looking for in me- peace and harmony.

Dear Volker and Rose
I think that you will be interesting in this: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gYFhfHkb41g/SsACz0dBfTI/AAAAAAAAALo/1z-JOQTwEoc/s320/plutchik_flower.jpg
Here is little explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_classification
A few years ago, I wrote about this topic in a NHE forum. Then I was of the opinion that the horses feel all these emotions just like people, and even I gave examples of such behavior....Today I know that I was wrong.

Volker
Quote:
My own feelings are in so far important, as they are the one thing that I'm an expert in. How the horse is really feeling and why he is acting how he does, is up to speculation. I can never be entirely sure of that. But if I feel angry, or scared, or whatever - that's something I can work with and use as information to change the interaction the way I want it to go.

I am not an expert in calling, interpreting and distinguishing my emotions. Less or more I can understand how I feel, but my emotions are very complex, so I am not able to understand what components create this complex. Every person has a different experience of life and everyone feels differently. When I say that I feel pain in my soul you can only guess what I feel. Your pain of the soul will never be the same as my pain of the soul, and vice versa. It may be a million or more of the feelings of joy, anger, pain, jealousy. For the horse this is a chaos. Therefore, I am of the opinion that going to the horse emotions are beyond the pasture.

Quote:
If on the other hand in a situation where I wasn't really sure of myself, I would tell Mucki that I am strong and he needed to stop something just because I say so, he would simply ignore me, because I wasn't authentic.

So, what I'm trying to say is that there is no use for me NOT explaining to Mucki that I am afraid when I am, because he would know it anyway ;). So for me, it's better (and nicer) to admit my shortcomings in such a moment. That way, I can become strong and certain again, because I know what I feel and why, I'm authentic again and can deal with the situation before me in an appropriate way...

You are a master! Thank you :) I agree with you. But now, I am not strong enough to do this like you ;) When I lost by one second it is very difficult for me find myself back in this situation. I need to practice, practice, practice, practice.... :yes: :f:

Rose
Quote:
However, it also means that you can influence the horse to become excited, calm, or happy, depending on yourself. Of course, the horse still has their own emotions, mind, and experiences, so it isn't possible to have the horse entirely match yours, but it can at least influence them.

And that is what I want to avoid. I leave my horses free will and do not want to affect on them by my emotions. Neither good emotions nor bad emotions. That's what I'm saying all the time is inner peace, it is a state of mind and body where there is no place for excitement or fear. Here is inner calm and quiet joy of being.

Quote:
Horses very easily perceive our emotions. I think that horses are smart enough to tell when those emotions are directed at them or not, too. Horse can tell when you're mad at them, or at something else.

I disagree :)

Ali
Quote:
I disagree with this , from countless things I have observed with my beautiful horses , but also from others that I have read on here . I am not saying horses always react to emotions in the exactly same way as humans , because they are not humans , and not they are all the same . But this does not mean they are capable of complex emotion , or aware of it . In fact I believe horses are even more sensitive to emotions , however complex , than humans .

Dear Ali, yes- horses are very sensitive animals, and they have a great capacity for empathy, but this ability causes great chaos. The horse is not aware of my emotions more than myself. The horse is not clairvoyant, doesn't know my past and does not understand why and from where comming my strange feeling for him, and this causes chaos.

Quote:
Imagine you had friend and you offered to do something that you wanted to do , or just started doing something that seemed fun , or were scared of something that you perceive you be a threat to life , but friend completely ignored this and stone walled you and said NO to whatever you were saying or doing and never explaining themselves

I see it differently. If always I keep my inner peace here is no problem. I am someone on who horses can rely on. So if I do not see any reason to fear that the horse will not be afraid. If the horse is afraid it means that he doesn't trust you, that you are someone on whom he can not rely on. Here you have to go to home and ask yourself another question and then go back to the beginning of the relationship with the horse. This is what I'm doing now.
In the authenticity there is no room for questions when we are with horses.

Quote:
Could you please explain what you mean by this ?, this must be very exhausting for you .

Exhausting was philosophies, constant thinking, figuring out the different solutions, continuous questioning, for which there is no clear answer. Figuring out what to do my horse when I do that or that.This led me nowhere.
The only solution for me was to learn how to live here and now. Tai chi is very helpful, I do teakwondo also. There is no place for asking questions and reflecting on my emotions. Tai chi teachs me how to keep the peace of mind and enjoy the joy of life, to embrace life, to have self-awareness and inner peace. Horses love it. And only if I'm in such a state of mind I'm capable of real relationship with the horse. They feel the joy and peace of mind, because they find their missing part in me and I become someone special for them :)

Quote:
So now he does not jump into me for my attention , rather he stands to the side stamping his foot waiting for me to come and give him a portion of oats

This is good :) Much the same work the word "no" without translation "why not" :)


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:52 am 
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Wind of change wrote:
I think I was misunderstood. In most of the examples I was talking about clicker traing. I am sorry, my fault, because I didn't explained that I did it only for 1 week. I gave up because I realized that it does not make sense. Shapes behavior, but these are tricks, that have nothing to do with a real connection with the horse. The horse does something because he knows that he will get a delicacy. Totally pointless. These are not real relationship with the horse.


Dear Ania, until now I have not taken part in this discussion because I simply have nothing to say that I have not already written in many other posts in this forum. However, I must ask you to stop judging other approaches to interacting with horses in this way. This simply isn't what this forum is about. If you have found that clicker training, NHE or any other way is not for you, fine. But to state that they are pointless is just the opposite of the way we talk to each other and about each other here. How would you feel if someone came and said that your way of being with your horses is pointless and cannot create a real relationship - especially if he had taken just one week to get to know you?


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:03 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Dear Romy,
I am sorry, I didn't know that you all do clicker training and you all go by NHE way. I do not judge, I speak on my own behalf and on my own experiences. I stressed that the NHE was good for me but in the beginning, as a start, but not now.
If you think that some sentences I saying should not be here just remove them from my post. I do not feel offended, and I will not have regrets.
The revolution is not my goal. Each has its way, other experiences, I tell only about myself.
Once again, I apologize and I will try to be more careful in my statements.


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:34 am 
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Wind of change wrote:
I didn't know that you all do clicker training and you all go by NHE way.
We don't. As far as I can tell we pretty much go all our own special ways ;).
I agree that the quote that Romy was referring to can be seen as very dismissive by someone who is using clicker training. After all, you state that that method is "totally pointless".
What we prefer to do here in this forum is to write from our own perspective - our personal experiences. We try not to judge other people or methods. It's basically the same respect with which we treat our horses, that we try to bestow on other people :f:.

I know it's sometimes not so easy to do, especially if English is not the native language. What I do is that I try to stick to the first person as much as possible. Whenever I spot a generalising statement in my posts, I rewrite it to the first person. It's ever so interesting to see how different it sounds all of a sudden :).

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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:38 am 
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Quote:
Whenever I spot a generalising statement in my posts, I rewrite it to the first person. It's ever so interesting to see how different it sounds all of a sudden :).

Nice idea Volker, I will start to do that....
:f:


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:55 pm 
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Volker wrote:
What we prefer to do here in this forum is to write from our own perspective - our personal experiences. We try not to judge other people or methods. It's basically the same respect with which we treat our horses, that we try to bestow on other people :f:


Yes :sun: , I tend to think of AND as I big pool of idea's and inspiration that you can draw from or add to as you wish , but never change :smile:

Windofchange wrote:
they have a great capacity for empathy, but this ability causes great chaos. The horse is not aware of my emotions more than myself. The horse is not clairvoyant, doesn't know my past and does not understand why and from where coming my strange feeling for him, and this causes chaos.


I think you must have misunderstood me :smile: ,What I mean is - I am neither clairvoyant , nor do I know your past and yet I am understanding and reacting to your emotions and actions that you have expressed ,though this is just through written language . This is what I believe that horses are capable of though body language and the presence of a human . Reacting to what they perceive and reacting on this information , should he so want to .

Quote:
I see it differently. If always I keep my inner peace here is no problem. I am someone on who horses can rely on. So if I do not see any reason to fear that the horse will not be afraid. If the horse is afraid it means that he doesn't trust you, that you are someone on whom he can not rely on. Here you have to go to home and ask yourself another question and then go back to the beginning of the relationship with the horse. This is what I'm doing now.
In the authenticity there is no room for questions when we are with horses.


If I understand this right , you are asking the horse to ignore their own instincts and rather follow your lead ? . :smile:
For me , I would never want to have this , as I like my horses to be autonomous beings , that think and make choices themselves , and have their own reactions , from there own point of view . For many reasons , one of which is that it would be boring to have a horse that just does everything I say , with no other opinion . But then that is just me :green:

Quote:
Ali wrote:
So now he does not jump into me for my attention , rather he stands to the side stamping his foot waiting for me to come and give him a portion of oats[\quote]

Windofchange wrote:
This is good :) Much the same work the word "no" without translation "why not" :)

Ah ,now I understand what you meant :yes:

:D


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