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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:30 am 
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Hi...

...dear Romy, on last Friday Pan and you showed me a nice shoulder-in for the first time. I had tried that sometimes but Pan hasn't understood what I meant. I'm afraid that my bodylanguage was too confused - once again... :blush:

Please, can you tell me again, how exactly you had moved, your shoulders, your hip? I have no ideas... :blonde: (also for more other funny things that Pan an I can do together, such as gymnastic :roll:) And the turn on the forehand (to me) doesn't work too altough I moved my leg and hip likes you (I think at least...). Since a short time ago Pan is really highly motivated. :yes: He will always do something (and of course collect his rewards... :funny:) He showes me that really clearly... :hap: So it's a little bit difficult for me to employ him without him boring. Have you any other ideas? (I'm sure you have... :))


(By the way: Your overview about the tenses lies on the table beside me, and it's an good help to understand and use the :yawn: english grammar. It is not easy for me but I do my very best. :yes:)


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder-in
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:44 am 
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So cool that you have started your own topic, Lena! I will only change the title a tiny little bit so that it will be easier to find it later when someone is having a similar question. :smile:

TakeItEasy wrote:
Please, can you tell me again, how exactly you had moved, your shoulders, your hip? I have no ideas...


Perhaps I could. However, there are some problems with that. First, no matter in how much detail I would describe my movement, it still wouldn't be possible for you to reproduce it exactly. This is simply because we are two different people, so our movement will always differ from each others'. Second, a lot of my movement happens without me being aware of it, so no matter how many pages of text I would write, it is still possible that what I think makes Pan react in fact isn't what he is using at all. But even if I managed to give you a perfect description and you could perfectly reproduce my cue, that still wouldn't help you in the next situation, for example when you are trying to ask for the travers, because then again you would not know how to ask for it. Therefore, I would like you to learn the correct movements not from me but directly from Pan.

My suggestion is this: Simply try to ask him for the shoulder-in in some way, no matter how. For example, this could be by first walking forwards with him, and then when he is next to you, turning your upper body to the inside of the circle (away from him). Or you could simply pretend to prepare for a curve but then walk straight ahead with your body still turned to push his shoulder away with your hip - the way I explained it to Angela, remember?

Most likely, his reaction will not be what you were hoping for. But that is good! Now look carefully at what he is doing and ask yourself what is still missing. For example, it could be that he is not bending but simply doing a sidepass away from you. Thus, you have to ask yourself what you would have to change in your own movement to make him change that aspect in his. In the case of the unwanted sidepass, this could be that you reduce the speed of your own movement and increase the degree to which your own body is rotated. But it could also be anything else. So just try it, observe how he is reacting (and reward! :)), and then experiment with the effects that a variation in your movement is having on his. Actually that is exactly what we have been practising over the last four weeks (or at least that's what I thought we were doing :blonde:). Your teacher is right there, and all you have to do is look at him and adjust your movements to what he is doing. :)

TakeItEasy wrote:
And the turn on the forehand (to me) doesn't work too altough I moved my leg and hip likes you (I think at least...).


Same situation as for the shoulder-in: Please don't try to move like I did. Instead, all you have to do is move in whatever way, observe Pan's reaction, and then change your movement according to what you see him doing. I know that this is difficult for you and that you are used to fixed exercises and step-by-step instructions. But I would really love to help you learn to communicate instead of teaching you a couple of tricks. ;) :kiss:

We can also do it together next time, if you want, and I will try to make extra sure to be a bit more understandable this time and show you exactly what to look for in Pan's behaviour. :f:

TakeItEasy wrote:
So it's a little bit difficult for me to employ him without him boring. Have you any other ideas? (I'm sure you have... :))


Yes, many. :) If you want to work on specific exercises, you can look into the Exercises subforum where there are lots of explanations on how to train all kinds of exercises. If you want a quick overview of some possible exercises, you can find it here: Overview of your exercises for inspiration. And then of course there is the possibility of freely combining all kinds of movements or working on more abstract things than a particular exercise - for example on his reactivity to your speed changes or his ability to vary the energy of his movements, or on his flexibility in changing direction, and many other things. But I guess that's easier to explain when we are training together next time. :smile:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:43 pm 
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Romy, thank you so much for your feedback :f:

Romy wrote:
I will only change the title a tiny little bit so that it will be easier to find it later when someone is having a similar question.


Oh, of course; I have no problem with that! :smile:

Romy wrote:
Therefore, I would like you to learn the correct movements not from me but directly from Pan.


Yes, I know what you mean. But it's easier for me to see how you are "in motion" with Pan and I can borrow your movements. Do you understand what I scribed? (In german the words are "Bewegungen ├╝bertragen".)

Romy wrote:
For example, this could be by first walking forwards with him, and then when he is next to you, turning your upper body to the inside of the circle (away from him). Or you could simply pretend to prepare for a curve but then walk straight ahead with your body still turned to push his shoulder away with your hip


These moves are just what I have still forgotten. I couldn't remember on it. Thank's Romy! :smile: I will try that with Pan next time.

Romy wrote:
Now look carefully at what he is doing and ask yourself what is still missing.


This is what I'm doing basically most of the time - at least I think so. :smile:

Romy wrote:
We can also do it together next time, if you want, and I will try to make extra sure to be a bit more understandable this time and show you exactly what to look for in Pan's behaviour.


That is a very good idea :applause: and I am sure it's could be helping me once more to take care Pan's behaviour.

Romy wrote:
I guess that's easier to explain when we are training together next time.


:yes: If you like??

Tomorrow? :D


Thanks again for the exercise-links. I will be checking that in the evening (or tomorrow in the office ;) ). In the afternoon I will be going to the english-course (3 hours... :yawn:).


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:01 pm 
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TakeItEasy wrote:
Romy wrote:
For example, this could be by first walking forwards with him, and then when he is next to you, turning your upper body to the inside of the circle (away from him). Or you could simply pretend to prepare for a curve but then walk straight ahead with your body still turned to push his shoulder away with your hip


These moves are just what I have still forgotten. I couldn't remember on it. Thank's Romy! :smile: I will try that with Pan next time.


If you have forgotten something, you can always just ask Pan and he will remind you. Just try something and if it does not work, try another way. It really isn't like a fixed movement receipe that you simply have to apply, but you can vary almost every aspect of it, and all these variations will have an effect on the way he moves.

TakeItEasy wrote:
Romy wrote:
I guess that's easier to explain when we are training together next time.


:yes: If you like??

Tomorrow? :D


If you like. :smile:

TakeItEasy wrote:
In the afternoon I will be going to the english-course (3 hours... :yawn:).


:cheers: Great - three hours of learning English are three hours that will make it easier for you to understand the things written in the forum, and these in turn will make it much, much easier for you to interact with Pan. So from that perspective, your English lesson is going to help you to improve your communication with your horse ...just in case that might increase your motivation a bit. 8)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:50 pm 
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Romy wrote:
If you have forgotten something, you can always just ask Pan and he will remind you. Just try something and if it does not work, try another way. It really isn't like a fixed movement receipe that you simply have to apply, but you can vary almost every aspect of it, and all these variations will have an effect on the way he moves.


I know, I know, and it rings true... :kiss: But then I'm afraid that I will confuse my horse with my confused bodylanguage because I don't know what the other way can be in that moment (no ideas). Sometimes the interacting works very good, sometimes not. Well, I know this is okay and I am not wrong about it. But in some days I swamped with this tricky situation.

I will be able to read my horse and also do this fascinating things (like you do!! Sorry... ;) :kiss:)


OMG, the time is running...! See you tomorrow? Aaaand comes Nora with us? Nelly and I would be glad to see Nora again! :f:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:59 pm 
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Ah, I know how frustrating it can be, when the one day everything looks easy, or something works wonderful while under instruction and then the other day, when you try it alone again, nothing seems to work out any more.
On the other hand, like Romy said, I'm afraid that's exactly what it's all about. To be on your own and develop your own cues. To tune in to that horse in that exact moment with nothing but your common language. The exercises don't really matter, the signs and cues don't really matter - you can basically all define that by yourself.

When I started interacting for real with my horse Mucki, I was very inexperienced and had no clear plan in my head, no road map to follow. It felt like I was dropped out of the sky into a strange land with a very strange language. And I started like you would do in such a situation, I picked the smallest part of a language, like a simple sentence, that would be easy to define and tried to bring that to a common understanding.
I thought that a simple sentence in horse language would be something like: move that hoof, move your hind-end, move your fore-end, move it from me, move it towards me. I did that for many sessions in the first winter and I rewarded him for every understanding we had.
That simple exercise was such a good foundation that I could build anything further on that common ground. And whenever I feel now that we have lost that basic communication a bit again, I teach us both that vocabulary again :).

That way, I think I have probably developed a way of moving with my horse that may seem strange or even impractical to others. But it is OUR language and what is most important - it is composed of my natural way to move, so I can speak it authentically.

Shoulder-in for instance, I do very different to Romy. I do it exactly the other way round actually: I turn towards the horses shoulder, instead of away from it ;). That is, because I'm not thinking about taking the head and the shoulder in, but actually let the shoulder yield from me so that the horse takes his weight away from it.
You can think of it as saying the same thing, but with different words :).

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Volker

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:32 am 
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Thank you so much, Volker, for your suggestions and comforting words. :f:

I am really glad to be here in this forum! :yes:

Houyhnhnm wrote:
It felt like I was dropped out of the sky into a strange land with a very strange language.


Oh yes, but for me not really a strange, but rather a difficult language, you might say that. In the first days after I had met Romy at least. I was always totally amazed after I had seen Romy and her horses in the videos. And I thought: "I will learning these body-language now and absolutely..." I like the way she works and I was always in search of a other way to work - these work - with my horse. Romy is such a friendly, cool and straightforwardly person. She is the right person which can be gived a help for Pan and me. I know that because I saw that. :)

Houyhnhnm wrote:
I rewarded him for every understanding we had.


Well, this is exactly what I do. Since I have a horse I have been working with the clickertraining. Pan knows rightly that he becomes a reward if he has doing something well. :smile:

Houyhnhnm wrote:
You can think of it as saying the same thing, but with different words


I know what you mean. And I promise I'll do my very best to remember yours and Romys tips. :f: And in case of need :blonde: Romy can remember me... ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:36 pm 
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We did it! :cheers:

Pan, my world's best horse has showed me today how I must move my body, therewith he goes in an rightwards shoulder-in and moves his hindquarter towards me. Heretofore the rightwards shoulder-in was always very difficult for him. We have it been trying again and again, at no time did it work. But ta-daa... - now he get's the point!

Also the frontquarter-turn towards me worked everytime if I had asked Pan afterwards. :applause:

Once again it was an really nice afternoon - my little :hap: that he is. :love:





(I hope, that you can understand what I have been trying to write... :blush:)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:11 pm 
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Yippieh! :) That's fantastic, and the very best part of it is that you two have figured it out all by yourselves. :clap: :clap: :clap: I am soooooo happy for you and Pan. :) :love: :f:

However, I don't really understand how Pan can move his hindquarters towards you in shoulder-in, so I was wondering if perhaps you mean the sidepass towards you or the travers instead? But all three are great, and no matter which one you did, you will manage the other ones just as well, now that you know how to communicate with him. And if you want some additional info on the sideways movements, here is the link to Miriam's explanation that I said I would give you last week: Sideways: Stepping under, Shoulder-in, Travers

Oh, and just in case someone did not understand what you meant with the "frontquarter-turn towards me": It's a turn on the frontquarters, or moving the hindquarters towards you. :smile:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:44 pm 

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What a very nice thread to read - all this good advice and so very well explained by both Romy and Volker. :applause: :applause: :applause: And I am so happy for you TakeItEasy that you found your way :applause: :applause: :applause: It is so nice what happens when we really open up and start looking at and sensing the horse - marvellous :love:


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