The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:24 am 
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For exercises from behind a fence I guess others can give better suggestions. If I am doing this at all, then only to clarify the principle that the horse is going to get rewarded for stepping away from me in response to a hip movement. Thus, just basic safety things, and as soon as the horse has understood this principle, I am in again. I just can't work that well with a barrier between us.

Machteld wrote:
And how do I keep him out of my space without the use of "tools" most of the time he completely ignores my early signs and we end up with me having to touch his skin in order for him to go back, but that means he's still too close to me, even whilst backing up.


Yes, but that again is in a scenario where you increase your cues until he performs the desired response. ;)

If Summy or any of my horses actually ignores my cues (and it is not a situation where I am okay with that), I maybe ask again to make sure he has perceived it. But if he still ignores it, I leave, even if it's just walking away for a few meters or a few seconds. With this I am signaling that if he is not paying attention, I am not going to interact with him. Then I go back to him (or he comes to me) and we give it another try. However, the training will only go on when he is attending to me, otherwise I simply have no interest in him.

Oh, and of course after such a situation he gets rewarded as soon as I see even the tiniest signal that now he IS attending to me. :smile:


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:45 pm 
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I have alas no time ro read anything but your first post Machteld, but I would like to reply any way.
Being used to having agressive charging and rearing horses a lot to deal with including my own I might put in something:

I never seek the conflict in which there is going to be a winner and looser type of situation. When I win, I have perhaps destroyed a change of having the best relationship with this horse and maybe lost his trust. If I loose, I could end up in the hospital...

So, if a horse acts like that I can do several things. One is to work from behind a fence, showing him that only polite and friendly behaviour which means respecting my personal space can win him nice comments, attention and perhaps a treat or more.

Very important is also that I set the example of what I seek in the horse: Calmness, respect of his space, friendly attention, responding to his small signals and all other things I aspire in him. So, if I feel any form of agression, that is what the horse will mirrow. Do I experience that, I walk off at once.

In the example of the cookie husband.. so true. That is why I often reward the horses for doing nothing else then being a friend :) They do not always have to do something.

In fact, I need to find the middle line, make us both winners in every situation :)

Need to go now, so I hope it helps out...
I also think, movies of Romy and Summy will be helpful

Merry Christmas!

Josepha

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:26 pm 

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Josepha wrote:
I never seek the conflict in which there is going to be a winner and looser type of situation. When I win, I have perhaps destroyed a change of having the best relationship with this horse and maybe lost his trust. If I loose, I could end up in the hospital...


I kind of gathered that the hard way earlier this week... :blush:


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:47 pm 

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Machteld,
sorry I'm so used to thinking in feet rather than meter. 3 feet is about one meter and that is about the minimum distance I would have a pushy horse stop in front of me even with an invitation, until all pushiness issues are resolved, ideally even a little more and far preferable a fence.
It is harder to teach him to move for you through a fence. You can make it a little easier if he accepts a whip as just an extension of your arm. If he is worried about whips this won't work.
If you use a fairly long whip you can use that for petting him all over to build his trust in the tool. Once he is completely comfortable with you petting him with the whip everywhere (incl. sensitive body parts) you can start using the point of the whip like a finger to gently ask him to move a body part away from you.
I don't have a ton of time right now so would be happy to give more details later if that helps.
Given his history of being obsessed with/pushy about treats you might want to give treats only from a bowl and use touch and tone of voice (if it works for him) as positive reinforcers exclusively for a while. At some point you can try using food again, but I would still only use it away from my body. That alone may moderate his behavior a lot.
Hope this helps a little, :)
Birgit


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:57 pm 

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Machteld,
I kept thinking about your situation since yesterday. I don't make this recommendation very often but I really think that it would be safer to find a local trainer who is willing to help you but who is also supportive of using positive reinforcement and will not respond to your horse with aggression as much as possible. At least have someone knowledgable about horses nearby when you work with your horse for any time you are not behind a fence. I don't know where you are located but maybe someone on here would have a suggestion of a good local trainer.
I just have this gut feeling that would be safer. :f:
Birgit


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:15 am 

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Thank you for your concern, Birgit, but actually, we've been pretty fine today :) I'm rewarding the good stuff and ignoring the bad. If he becomes too excited, I give him some time to cool down in stead of pushing him even further to the limits of his patience. It certainly gices him food for the mind (I see a lot of chewing, licking and that look of "what is she trying to tell me" on his face :) I am not able to have a professional/expert around everytime I train, but Josepha visits this neighbourhood once a month, for which I am very glad. This will have to do. I've always dealt with him on my own. Him rearing was my fault, but I am not intebding on making that mistake twice ;)

I do not want to exclude the food rewards if I don't have to. He is much more motivated to do it with food. If his behaviour persits or gets worse, I'll give dropping the foodrewards another thought. For now, I'm not giving up on that yet ;)

The whip is something I can think about. He is very comfortable around it. There is no fear for it in any way and I can pet him all over. My only concern is that, if I do not have it on me, the pushing will return. He has to be awate of me, not of a tool I happen to be holding.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:29 am 
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Great to read that it went so much better today! :)

I can really relate to your concerns about using a whip. Besides the reason you already mentioned, whips also carry a high risk of destroying someone's body language. For example if you stand next to the horse and want to ask his hindquarters to move away: if you do this with a whip as en extended arm, you will most likely bend over towards his hindquarters and your hips will move away from them, not towards. In this way he will have to learn to ignore you if he wants to do what you are asking.

I also would not recommend having a trainer come over, and certainly not at this stage where you are making such an important step in your relationship. If you have any problems or questions, you can ask here anytime (preferably with a video attached, then we can give more precise suggestions). One of the good things about the forum, besides getting different perspectives on a problem, is also that you can sit back calmly and then choose from all the suggestions you get what suits you and Falco best and what does not - I can imagine this to be hard when you have a trainer standing next to you and telling you what to do. ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:14 am 

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Quote:
Kate, you have no idea how happy I am to have you here. Not only are your posts great as usual, but you also saved me lots of things I wanted to write (and then I could not have explained it as well as you did). So now I can focus on another aspect.

Aw, Romy, thanks. :blush: Personally I think you would have explained things just as well and probably better than I did. I was disappointed to realise that my posts stopped you from writing your own. But I’m glad it meant that you could focus on writing a great post on another important aspect, something I was thinking after watching the video but had no idea how to put into words. So that seems to have worked out well. :D

Machteld,

Some things you could work on with Falco:

Backing up

Lowering his head.

Standing on a mat or just standing still in general

Targetting – maybe use something a bit longer than your cone. I use an empty plastic water or lemonade bottle on the end of a short (longer for fast exercises) piece of poly pipe or a stick. The bottle (or whatever your target is) gives them something to focus on and makes the stick less whip-like so Falco doesn’t think this tool is for pressure cues. However, it does come with one of the same problems as the whip – what if you don’t have it with you? Perhaps you could just use it to help with some initial teaching of behaviours if necessary – but it’s not actually necessary, just helpful.

If you can get these behaviours (especially the backing and lowering his head, as these don’t require any extra equipment), plus anything else you can think of that is incompatible with him crowding you or rearing, and get them to be very strong – reinforce LOTS (these behaviours are your safety net, Falco should think he’s won the lottery when he does them for you) you’ll have safe behaviours you can always ask him for any time you feel unsafe– and also hopefully some default behaviours that he will resort to if he does get confused or frustrated. I taught Billy, then a stallion, to back up as one of his first clicker behaviours and now that’s what he tries if he can’t get a treat out of me any other way. He’s not dangerous, but he used to be quite mouthy and all over me**, and it was comforting to know that when he was feeling pushy and wanting a treat RIGHT NOW, his reaction was to actually back away from me instead of the opposite. (**I actually don't mind my horses coming into my space, even uninvited - I don't see it as being disrespectful or anything, just part of being friendly with each other - of course it's a different matter if they are coming close to me and giving me a not-nice feeling or actually being dangerous. With Billy I got the idea that he sometimes wanted to play rough with me like another horse. :ieks: )

You can shape Falco to back up by waiting and capturing the moment he moves backwards – accidentally, and even if this is only a miniscule *lean* backwards. From a lean he might lean a bit more, then shift one foot back, and so on. Same with lowering his head – he’ll lower it at least a bit at some point – capture that, and then shape lower and lower.

Or, you can help him by using the target, then fade it out.

Or if your aim is decent, toss a treat either: on the ground in front of him (where he doesn't ahve to move his feet to get it) for head down, or for backing: between his front legs, then the next time a bit further under him – if he knows where it has gone, hopefully he’ll step back rather than turning around to get it, and you can click the backwards movement (actually this combines head down and backing up), then after a couple of repetitions, just pretend to throw something, and he should step back – click/treat, and so on, and he should get the idea.

For the backing up you could study Romy's body language video and use her hip movements. :yes:

After I click I will actually throw treats to them (only if the horse is practiced in noticing/finding treats on the ground very quickly), this just further cements the backing and staying back behaviour. When there is no barrier, I might still do this, or I might walk quickly to the horse and give the treat from an arm's length away. Of course this lengthens the time between click and treat, but that can't really be helped. You just don't want him backing up and then rushing back to you for the treat. Same with head down - you don't want him putting his head quickly down then jerking it back up for the treat. Another option is putting a shallow pan/container on the end of a stick and presenting that to him while he is still out away from you. Not forever, of course - only for a very short while until he gets the idea of not being on top of you.

Hope all of that makes sense!

I understand why Birgit is urging you to work with a trainer for safety, but like Romy, I’m glad you’re not going to do this. I definitely want you to keep safe, and that’s why I suggested a barrier if Falco is going to do unsafe things.

You didn’t say whether you were behind the fence or in with him today? Either way, I'm very glad to hear that things were better today! :cheers:

Quote:
@Romy:
Wow... The way you solved the problems with Summy is amazing.

I can't think of a better thing for you to do than to keep reading Romy’s diary and also study her videos. She has a relationship with her horses that I can only dream of with mine.

Quote:
I always thought that the time between the click and the cookie was less important than the timing of the click himself,


The timing of the click is definitely more/most important, but yes, the food delivery matters a lot too, especially if, as you say, he has time to do something else (especially something you don’t want – even though the click has marked the behaviour you do want, if the pattern goes click – beginnings of pushiness – treat, the pushiness is being reinforced as well.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:06 am 

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I was a little surprised that you both recommended not to work with a trainer. My assumption was that a trainer would support the person who pays them in what they want to do with their horse, not tell them what to do. At least that's what I expect from a trainer who I pay. I expect a trainer to give me suggestions and also to ask good questions but it is ultimately up to me if and when I follow their advice after thinking it through. Of course it's important to have someone with similar values, but I'm sure Josepha would have very similar values. I do understand that it's not practical to always have a trainer around when working with a horse, I was thinking only for situations where you don't want to work behind a fence. Could it be that you have had bad experiences with horse trainers? I'm always glad when I have another pair of experienced eyes around when I work with my horse, but maybe it depends on the person. ;)

Birgit


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:09 am 
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Birgit's point is well taken. How many times I was stuck with something with a horse, trying different things, and when I asked someone to observe, even a student (sometimes especially a student who knew my goals and methods) something I was doing was teaching the horse to NOT do the behavior I asked for.

I believe it was said the Josepha comes by occasionally. I do hope you'll take advantage of that and have her observe as well as recommend. That could make a tremendous difference.

Kate's points about how to handle the delivery of the reinforcement, the treat, is where I find so often we have inadvertently taught the horse to respond in ways we did not mean to.

I notice she suggests a number of ways to get the horse's head down and backing away from the handler. I'd like to add that generosity with a horse that is food obsessed is a positive way of dealing with his obsession. Most often his reason for food obsession when it comes to training treats is that we promise the horse a treat dispenser that he can control. If we are stingy, if we hold back, he reverts to type.

So having things for him to do that earn treats in rapid succession is going to lower the tension he feels.

This excitability about Clicker training is not uncommon with those that use the technique. It is important to have delivery down solid. Not allowing the horse to come to the treat is important for them. Delivery the treat even with a little force.

Be sure he is well trained to wait for the treat as a matter of habit. I would not put it on cue as you won't be able to use it when you are teaching something else. I do put "wait," for food, or to go through a doorway, etc. on cue. But not the treats during training. Do some sessions with presenting, after the click, the treat enclosed in your hand, the back of the hand up, and wait for him to stop messing about with your hand, and deliver instantly, almost as if it was a click.

You are laying groundwork for calming about food treats by doing this.

Best wishes,

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~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:56 am 

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Location: Australia
Hi Birgit,

Quote:
My assumption was that a trainer would support the person who pays them in what they want to do with their horse, not tell them what to do.

This would be lovely, but I've never come across this (not just my own experiences but I've never heard of this truly happening) - not unless the trainer's and owner's values were extremely similar. Which is very difficult to find when your values include letting the horse have a say.

Yes, I have had bad experiences with horse trainers. However, I also know that there are many excellent trainers out there. Good ones who use pressure, and quite a few clicker trainers too. But even a lot of (horse) clicker trainers have quite a different set of ideas that has everything to do with control and thinking that it is absolutely necessary to resort to *making* the horse do whatever they want at some point (not just in an extreme situation, but in the normal course of training), and very little to do with empowering the horse or letting them have a say. They may do this for "tricks" or "play" but not for "serious training" (riding, staying out of your space, etc.)

I didn't mean to recommend not having Josepha come! I meant another trainer that could come all the time - I may be wrong and there may be lots of trainers with similar values near Machteld (maybe that's where they are all hiding!) but I would be very, very surprised if this were the case.

Even if a trainer did agree to help someone work in the way they wanted, I find it very hard to see a situation where if the horse behaved in a pushy way almost any trainer of ANY method wouldn't step in and push back at him - even if there wasn't immediate danger. It's very hard to find someone who can totally change their thinking in this way - to most trainers, allowing him to "get away with" this (even if that is not what is happening) would be unthinkable. As would not trying to convince the owner to do things their way.

Hi Donald!
Quote:
Birgit's point is well taken. How many times I was stuck with something with a horse, trying different things, and when I asked someone to observe, even a student (sometimes especially a student who knew my goals and methods) something I was doing was teaching the horse to NOT do the behavior I asked for.

Indeed, I wasn't trying to say that Machteld should do everything alone and that it wouldn't help to have someone there to observe and point stuff out in person. Just that it pays to be wary of professional trainers. Not because they are all bad, but because even the good ones are usually working for completely different goals.

Quote:
I'd like to add that generosity with a horse that is food obsessed is a positive way of dealing with his obsession. Most often his reason for food obsession when it comes to training treats is that we promise the horse a treat dispenser that he can control. If we are stingy, if we hold back, he reverts to type.

So having things for him to do that earn treats in rapid succession is going to lower the tension he feels.

Of course! Such a good point, I didn't even think of that.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:31 am 
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Birgit wrote:
I was a little surprised that you both recommended not to work with a trainer.


I can only agree with everything Kate has already said. I yet have to meet a professional horse trainer (besides Josepha) who teaches that pushy behaviour should be reacted to with increased politeness from the human.

Besides that, I have not made bad experiences with trainers personally - except as a child in a riding school, but later I never worked with them myself, just watching other people work with trainers. However, for me in a relationship - and I see my interaction with horses as a relationship almost like any other - I prefer not to have external people tell me what to do and what to say to my partner while I am in a certain situation.

Imagine I was having a fight with a human and then imagine there was a relationship trainer (or any social worker) saying to me: "Now look at him and tell him that you feel treated unfairly/ that you regret it/ that you want to make up". For me this would be an absolute No-Go, because I want to do the things I intuitively feel I have to do.

This does not mean that I am avoiding external advice. I like it very much to talk these things through with a friend or with my mother (who for some reason always seems to have a solution that sits well with me, maybe because we are so similar). But I want to do this while I am OUT of the situation, so that I can take my time to think it trough and then only do what fits with my own goals in this relationship.

No matter how much I hope that the professional trainer would want to help me with my own goals, if I imagine a situation where a quick reaction to the horse's behaviour is required within a few milliseconds, I do not see myself capable of carefully evaluating an external comment like "Now don't step back, but do xyz!" I would either simply react and do what he says, or I would have to put extra effort into shilding my own actions and ignoring him. Both options don't seem very productive to me in making my interaction with my horse better.

Of course people are different and for some it might feel just right to get help from a trainer, and some have other goals than I have so for them it might be easier to find an external trainer whose methods are in agreement with that. Just wanted to through my opinion into the bowl of ideas Machteld gets from this forum.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:36 pm 
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Very good points from many perspectives I think.

I would like to reintroduce a theme I think is most important though. That is the one of safety. I think we all can agree that if the handler is in danger there needs to be an approach that one, helps them feel safe, and two, helps them BE safe.

Most of you know me and my emphasis on relationship in all horse handling. I will set aside all goals but that one in my planning, my "training," and my being with the horse. A personal preference and not one I would attempt to sell to others, though if they wish it too ...

I cannot though have much of a relationship with someone I am afraid of. There is always some risk, of course, but I have to feel safe. Even Bonnie, sweetheart that she is, can have moments were I make it clear to her in many ways that I do not accept rushing me, crowding me, whipping around in circles too close to me, etc.

No, as most of you know already, I don't punish, I just go soft and move out of the way, and don't play for a time. I then invite her to try again. Many horse will understand this and calm themselves, or at least try to focus on what I am asking for.

I find that if I choose some easy well known behavior I've trained and do a few repetitions Ms Bonnie comes to calmness and focus quickly. Peace. And a functional treat dispenser - most horses would prefer that.

I do allow and encourage Bonnie to have times that she just has to kick out the jams ...that is run and buck and pass gas and have a generally good old time pretending the lions and bears are fighting her.

Then we settle down to work. I clap to do wild play, and I whistle and wiggle my two finger touch forehead target to call for connection and quiet play together with puzzles to solve.

What this gives me is an opportunity to treat generously (this does NOT mean amount, this means higher frequency) in rapid succession. As I pointed out to Kate who is obviously highly skilled with Clicker Training, and she acknowledged, there is a different set of rules for the food obsessed horse. They have to learn that one, we are generous dispensers, and two, there is a protocol (just as in herd behavior) to how food will be given.

The back of the hand exercise gives quietness and careful behavior to the horse. I no longer give treats with open palm first as I formerly did. My instructor (Clicker Training) helped me understand this and suddenly I had very quiet treat accepting horses ... no grabbing, no mooching, no body mugging.

Especially the rapid fire treat dispensing works. This one I knew about from back when I was working Dakota five years ago. No behavior asked for other than proper acceptance of treats. Just click treat fast and furious. Having food presented and even pushed between the lips quells the heat about food, the obsessiveness is overwhelmed by the flood of food ... just tiny treats, no volume to speak of just frequency increasing.

Dakota was very like the horse being described. I never videoed his wildings, but he them, and very severe at that. He would strike and wheel and kick when he was excited about food. I was new to clicker training then and had to do a lot of research to understand what was happening. His nature and his food obsession changed when I figured out the frequency trick.

Think of it this way. If I am hungry, and in addition someone that has a food addiction problem, if someone is shoving small bites of food at me rapidly I am busy with get them and eating them, whereas if they are sitting there with the food tray covered and make me do things ... many things, maybe for longer than I want to wait, before giving me just one little bite, chances are I'm NOT going to lose my obsessiveness. It will get worse.

This horse is agitated because in the course of doing clicker training the handler/owner may be seen by the horse as stingy and withholding. That must be changed.

I recently learned too that this same trait of being anxious about food is attached to the anticipation of the end of the training session thus the end of treats. My instructor gave me the simple but powerful answer, as she always seems to do, and it was this: end each session with a handfull of treats in a bucket for the horse to eat as you walk away.

Bonnie stopped cutting me off when I tried to end the session as I had before. Now she is calm and knows she's going to literally get a jackpot and that's changed our relationship immensely.

These aren't things I recommending just to this particular situation, this horse, this owner, these are sound solid Clicker Training tactics based on the knowledge of a trained, educated, graduate level, behaviorist that has applied her skill for many years. She is mentored by Karen Pryor, who I think we all know. She has a reservoir of skill and knowledge that is belied by her appearance as just another "cowgirl," back yard minihorse trainer. She's much more than that.

If you are ever stuck I strongly recommend her. She's changed my training drastically to even less pressure than before. She understands, as you mentioned Kate, the pressure issues and has devised many ways that reduce and remove them and are just plain calming for the horse.

Please, all of us, do keep safety first in mind whatever we offer to this horse owner. Best wishes,

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:43 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:03 am
Posts: 760
Donald,
great post. I don't have anything to add except to say that while I have limited experience of all you described with only a limited number of horses I have extensive experience of using what you describe with dogs including some very aggressive ones and it works extremely well with all that are food obsessed and most that have just learned they can be bullies.
Romy,
concerning the trainer issue, I suspect that you have so much experience and are naturally talented in this area that you would not require very frequent input from outside trainers and that they could indeed be a strong distraction. I've had that experience, too, and have sometimes told riding instructors and trainers to wait with giving me their feedback until afterwards except in emergencies. This may also depend on one's learning style.
I personally have learned from every trainer/instructor I've worked with, if nothing else I learned what not to do. :funny:

About the whip or stick (rigid) use: again it may depend on the previous experience of the horse and the way a particular person has learned to use it. For me a cordeo is a tool that I'm not very good at using so I use my bare hands or reins (a lot like leather dog leashes) on a halter instead. But a dressage whip or stick (or two) on each side of the horse works well for guiding.
Machteld, hope you'll find something that works for you and your horse, it seems that as long as we have the commitment to make it work we can eventually figure out what to do. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:44 am 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:02 pm
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Location: UK Worcester/Hereford border
You are getting great help.

HOW do you offer a food reward?

Hold your hand in a closed fist with horse standing head in poll up muzzle down and pretend your hand is a mares udder.
If you feel teeth then move your hand down quickly, (or if really marish then up quickly and away).

If you feel soft whisker nuzzle then open hand flat and treat...same principle as foal with teeth only has access to milk bar if polite and well mannered.

Mares can kick and bite rude foals, or at least not give a food/milk reward for the sort of manners displayed in sweet shops by children whining "I want!".

Good Luck.xx

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