The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:54 pm 
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Donald Redux wrote:
We may be overdoing "body language," thinking the horse doesn't see it unless we overdo it. The trick is to find ways, I believe, for the horse to make the connection with the very subtle cue and some behavior.
(…)
I believe that the belief the horse "doesn't understand," unless we over exaggerate cues of body language, or voice, for that matter, is one of our disservices to the horse and his real sensibilities.


For me it works better not to see the horse’s understanding of body language only in terms of perception, but rather look at it in a signal detection framework, where both the perceiver’s sensitivity and his decision criterion determine his interpretation of a signal.

Or in practical terms: I am completely with you that horses are ever so sensitive and can notice every tiny cue. However, imagine to be a horse living with humans: no matter how sensitive you are, if every time you detect a (body language) signal and react to it, this leads to no consequences or even negative consequences, your threshold for interpreting something as a meaningful cue will increase.

I’ll just take my current favourite as an example: reacting to the human’s posture on a circle. If you get driven forwards every time you slow down because your human turns towards you and thus blocks you with his inside hip, you will soon have to learn that the human’s posture is not a meaningful cue. If you don’t learn to ignore that, you will get corrected over and over. So what will happen if the human then one day turns towards you because he has heard someone talk about body language and now wants to use it as a cue? Of course you still detect it, but what are the odds that now suddenly this means something?

I completely agree with you that we needn’t become especially clear and needn’t put a lot of emphasis on our body language but instead can just act normally and the horse will pick up our intention anyway – if, and I believe only if, we stop giving all those hundreds of meaningless signals every time we interact with our horses. But as long as we are interacting with horses who have been corrected again and again for NOT ignoring their human, personally I don’t see it as that much of a disservice to the horse to be extra clear in showing him that from now on I am trying to increase the ratio of meaningful cues to noise. :smile:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:45 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
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Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Romy wrote:
Donald Redux wrote:
We may be overdoing "body language," thinking the horse doesn't see it unless we overdo it. The trick is to find ways, I believe, for the horse to make the connection with the very subtle cue and some behavior.
(…)
I believe that the belief the horse "doesn't understand," unless we over exaggerate cues of body language, or voice, for that matter, is one of our disservices to the horse and his real sensibilities.


For me it works better not to see the horse’s understanding of body language only in terms of perception, but rather look at it in a signal detection framework, where both the perceiver’s sensitivity and his decision criterion determine his interpretation of a signal.

Yes, that is reflected repeatedly in your training diary entries, from as far back as I can recall. I find myself still too goal driven and that is why I find myself focusing on giving the cue meaning from me to the horse.
Romy wrote:
Or in practical terms: I am completely with you that horses are ever so sensitive and can notice every tiny cue. However, imagine to be a horse living with humans: no matter how sensitive you are, if every time you detect a (body language) signal and react to it, this leads to no consequences or even negative consequences, your threshold for interpreting something as a meaningful cue will increase.

Yes, a quandary. I try to overcome that with what I mentioned before above.
Romy wrote:
I’ll just take my current favourite as an example: reacting to the human’s posture on a circle. If you get driven forwards every time you slow down because your human turns towards you and thus blocks you with his inside hip, you will soon have to learn that the human’s posture is not a meaningful cue. If you don’t learn to ignore that, you will get corrected over and over. So what will happen if the human then one day turns towards you because he has heard someone talk about body language and now wants to use it as a cue? Of course you still detect it, but what are the odds that now suddenly this means something?

Goes to my obligation to be clear from the start - and to recognize how my body and other cues effect the horse. I'm as or more obligated to read the horse as he to read me.

To answer your question, it's my obligation to make clear the something I wish to convey. The object of reinforcement, and too, punishment if one uses that - or negative reinforcement.
Romy wrote:
I completely agree with you that we needn’t become especially clear and needn’t put a lot of emphasis on our body language but instead can just act normally and the horse will pick up our intention anyway – if, and I believe only if, we stop giving all those hundreds of meaningless signals every time we interact with our horses. But as long as we are interacting with horses who have been corrected again and again for NOT ignoring their human, personally I don’t see it as that much of a disservice to the horse to be extra clear in showing him that from now on I am trying to increase the ratio of meaningful cues to noise. :smile:


My answer to that very issue, all the static we throw at the horse because he IS so sensitive, is not to struggle with quieting so much (since I cannot know all the "cues," he's picking up on - my unconscious ones) is "congruity."

I've mentioned it before and for a time I suppose was becoming boring and redundant on the subject, but I truly believe that if I clean up my own act, get centered, and get in touch with my own intent, emotions, and the thoughts that accompany those, I will develop a pattern of consistency with the horse.

Bonnie especially, but Altea too, seem tuned to this. If certain behaviors annoy or make me anxious, and I am consistently expressive about it, I find that soon a very slight inflection in my voice is recognized as my disapproval.

I think it's a herd learned constant for a horse to be quite sensitive to disapproval.

Approval, on the other hand, while it too needs congruence and consistency to be understood happily comes more easily to the horse. One need do nothing much but cheerfulness and the horse picks it up and profits from it.

Videos of various and members, and still pics too, so often show a happy couple enjoying some game or activity or no special activity at all, just quiet companionship, and it's plain both are content in each others' company under that circumstance.

I'm reminded of a recent photos posting a pregnant young woman, and a gentle donkey ---

I don't think the donkey fails to understand the warmth and feel approved of. The pictures show a consistent message

I'm taking the easy way out with my "congruence," process, of course. But it took me many years of much error to finally wake up to it, so I give myself credit for the work. LOL

Write that book.

Donald, Altea, and Bonnie Cupcake

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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