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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:26 pm 

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Romy wrote:
xxSonnyxxandxxRedxx wrote:
but every time I've let him "walk all over me (be the boss)" He gets extremely aggressive and our relationship goes down the tank


Oh, I think exactly THAT is the problem: that people sometimes tend to assume that letting the horse have a voice is the same like letting him walk all over them. In every relationship there are rules - but rules are not the same like dominance or one of the partners being the boss. Rules can be agreed on in a completely non-confrontative and often purely reward-based way without using Parelli phases or other forms of punishment. But you will find a lot of info about this in the threads I already linked to. :smile:

I never thought of it that way! But now that I think about it it makes a LOT of sense! Thanx!

~Lauren, Owner of a LBI/LBE aka my dream horse, and a RBI/LBI/LBE/RBE aka my "problem child

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:24 pm 
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Chance was very aggressive/dominate in the past. I did a lot of backing off with her and taking it slow.


Well actually Michelle, you didn't take much time at all. It can take a LOOOOOOONG time to alter the basis of a relationship and there are a lot of people who don't have that patience, and there are a lot of people that aren't old enough to make that decision themselves.

We don't choose horses the same way we choose our friends. It doesn't just happen...we buy them. We don't buy our friends, we MAKE them. Most people really don't see horses in the same light, and in some ways, they aren't. We do buy them (or they come to us in various ways), but they have no choice in being where they are. So we start from a very different place. So we buy them and we want them to love us. It doesn't occur to us that, literally, we have to work harder to have a prisoner see us as a friend. And don't get me wrong...my horse is in the same boat. I bought him. I didn't give him the chance to get to know me first. He's stuck with me. So then it's up to me to make the best of it for him.

Also, we see that most people who are well along in Parelli and are doing very well, don't see the need to change the way they interact with horses. And honestly? Maybe you don't. Maybe it's safer for you to tell your horse that you are the boss and you should be obeyed. If you start with a horse who has a tendency to be aggressive and the only way you feel safe is to stick with what you know, then you won't likely look deep enough into the AND philosophy to feel confident in doing things any other way. We are not here to tell you that you have to stop punishing your horse when they say NO. But what you lose with the punishment is the opportunity to delve deeper into the reason a horse says NO and to truly understand what it takes to get a horse to say YES of their own free will. But you do stay safe. Sometimes. If you balance it well, and don't push that one button too hard, your horse will never rebel and hurt you. But as I said, you don't get free will playing. This is a trade off. You can have one or the other. But even if you give up punishment 100% there is no guarantee that you get a playful horse.

AND is a philosphy. You can take a little of it, or you can take it all the way. But if you have to punish your horse to control them, you place limits (and sometimes with necessity) on where you can take the relationship. But always, if you use increasing phases of pressure to cause the horse to do something you are not only taking away their free will, but you are also robbing yourself of the opportunity to dig deeper and figure out how to get the horse to WANT to do something. You can become a leader without becoming a true friend of equal responsibility and shared joy. You can even become a trusted leader for your horse. But you do so by taking their choices away...not by increasing them.

So please understand that AND fits many people and can fit in with various methods, and that there are various levels of involvement here. I'm sure there's some here that are just here to learn to teach tricks and you'll see people that DO use pressure, and those that approach this more purely like Romy, Josepha and others. But if you wish to go from using some form of punishment (p+ punishment is adding something unpleasant in order to reduce an unwanted behavior) to a reward based method (r+ training by adding something pleasant in order to increase the likelihood of a wanted behavior) then you have to dig pretty deeply into your reserve of patience and face the fact that for some time, as your horse learns that his/her opinion is now allowed, that they are first going to say, "I don't like you very much". Then you rebuild from there. It's a point that not many people are willing to face.

Have you seen "Path of the Horse" by Stormy May? It illustrates a journey that not many people will take. In that journey, you see Stormy with her horses, and her horses totally ignore her and turn their backs on her. You see what she goes through to finally be able to play freely with her horses. It's an underlying story (and I wish they would have spent more time on that part of the story in front of the camera) and not the main one, but to me, it's the most important and revealing aspect of the film. It's very worthwhile watching it.

Even within my relationship with Tamarack...I get expressiveness, but not wild play. I get mirroring, but not as much of his own opinions as I would like. It's because I ask for things frequently. I train with food and I reward a LOT, but I still use pressure to ask for things. As soon as you ask for something you are using pressure. So in some ways it's unavoidable if you have goals. My hero Romy is one who has asked literally nothing of her horses and simply rewards...and so she has some very playful horses who do amazing things because they want to. Bianca is the same with her horses. They play! Because she rewards but rarely if ever asks them for things. So as soon as you ask for things from your horse, you run the risk of dampening the chances for free play to some extent. The more pressure, the less play. And with free play you run the risk of getting hurt if you're not aware enough to get the heck out of the way. So it's all a trade off.

Lauren, if you want more playfulness, you might have to give up quite a bit and there are risks associated with it. But the depth of knowledge you stand to gain if you wish to take the journey is quite amazing and could change your life. But it's a decision you have to make and trust me, it's a really BIG decision. No one can tell you how to do this exactly, and certainly no one here can tell you whether you SHOULD do it. But if you give up telling your horse what he MUST do to please you, you have to face the fact that you would also have to stop telling him what NOT to do, and you start on a journey of a deeper understanding to find out why he lashes out and what he's rebelling against and what triggers any aggressive tendencies. So it's a trade off of pretty massive proportions. What you're giving up is control, and that is SO hard for so many to do...myself included. The hardest thing to give up for anyone, in any life, anywhere in the world, in any situation, is control. It really becomes more of a spiritual journey. It encompasses more of your life than your desire to play with one horse who has a tendency to be aggressive. But the only way to find out why this horse is aggressive is to ask him. And to hear the answer, you have to turn down the volume on all other aspects of your relationship with him.

That is why the first place to start is usually Doing Nothing.

:f:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:35 pm 
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I meant 'being the boss over himself' meaning he isn't going to be pushed into things he doesn't want to, to give him a reason to get agressive.
It took many years to build that relationship Owen and I have now. We started training from behind the fence for starters and I showed him he could say 'no' without trying to kill me :funny: And that everything he DID want to do was appreciated and earned him a treat.
I would never just run around in an arena with an agressive horse, not even a horse I do not know and seems very sweet. I was showing you a result of years of AND, not the way of starting to do things with an agressive horse :ieks:
Bad explaining of me and thank God you did not try this 'chase the human' game right away. :ieks:

As Romy said, this (AND) is about allowing the horse to say 'no' and offering us something he wants to do instead. This is not at all the same then letting your horse hit or bite or run you over. We would never let that happen, why would we? There is no positive outcome for horse nor human. All we do is with a well thought out reason behind it.

If I really want to be friends with my horse instead of being the dominant human, I give the good example of what I would like to see in my horse:
Thus;
Respecting his space, respecting his ‘no’, respecting that when he wants something or doesn’t want something he has good reason.
Usually what we give we get back in return. That goes both ways.

And good luck :)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:41 pm 
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:ieks: Wow Karen! Now I even understand myself better :) 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:42 pm 
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I did mean also to say that Josepha and Eileen (ET with Gaucho) both have much to offer in understanding what an aggressive horse needs to let his aggressiveness go. In both cases, it's letting the horse have control of the situation.

Quote:
respecting that when he wants something or doesn’t want something he has good reason.


I have so many heroes on this forum. Josepha, you're definitely one of them! :kiss:

This comment alone sums up why it's ok to let a horse have the control. Because they have good reasons for what they do. We have to respect that, trust that, listen to that, learn from that. The horse is the teacher, the horse is the master. If we don't acknowledge that, we lose the opportunity to learn from them.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:44 pm 
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:blush: well your mine Karen!

sorry for this in your thread Lauren :funny: :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:53 pm 
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Josepha, and maybe others as well that have made that leap of faith...how long did you have to do nothing with Owen in order for him to trust you (and you trusting him because it IS a two way street!).

It's hard to tell someone how long it might take...this "Doing Nothing". I think for each person it's different. It has to be. For each horse it's different as well. But if we can illustrate how long it has taken others to redevelop a relationship, perhaps they can get a better understanding of the sacrifice it takes to earn the trust of an angry horse?

(Josepha, thank you, and tell Owen thank you from me too).

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:06 pm 
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Excellent question, never would have thought of that!
With Jamie it must have been half a year, riding I did not do for two years. He as an ex bullfighter is of course extremely and rarely traumatised and things can be still difficult after 8 years at 26 of ag.
With Owen it was two years but that was easy as he was ill.

But before I did two years of traditional things with him after which he nearly killed me (and rightly so!) in the ambulance not knowing if my neck was broken I had time to think things over so to speak :green: This was a turning point for me. :yes:

With Aggressive autistic Inocencio I am doing ‘nothing’ now for over 5 years. :D

That is to say, what traditional and NH view as nothing, I view as a whole lot.
It all comes down to relationship, trust, letting go of control and getting to really know each other to see if both can actually like and perhaps love each other.
A lot like when you would have a cat. People often don’t expect much from a cat but like to be with him or her and so they like to be with their human and offer things of their own accord.

hope that helps...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:10 pm 
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Writing in strict behavioral terms, Romy, "punishment," isn't pressure release based (The Parelli Method). It is, when properly examined, very subject to unpleasantness from the horse's perspective. Thus it could be seen as punishment for NOT doing something one wants the horse to do.

This issue is well worth closer examination for we that hope to adhere to the AND philosophy.

Josepha recently pointed out that pressure-release methods are not AND, as I think she put it.

I wonder how the horse sees it when we are responding to a violation of the relationship rules (say a boundary issue where they crowd or threaten us) and we react energetically, even aggressively. Is it punishment in their mind, experienced like any other of the punishment in orthodox methods of horse handling?

You inspired me to think more about this by your comments focusing so clearly on the quality of the relationship. I hate to sound, to newbies and old timers alike, like a spastic parrot, but I just have to keep repeating what you too are saying, I think, each time questions as in this thread come up.

If we get square with what a good relationship really is, and we apply that to the horse and ourselves a "normal," horse and even many not so normal, will usually respond in kind.

Not asking of the horse what we are not willing to give ourselves if asked is one of the tough relationship questions, I think. And never more so than when one of us violates the rules. I think this is the greatest challenge for me.

"I'm 'busy,' you see. I must feed the horse, doctor the horse if needed, clean the stalls, get the water trough cleaned and refilled, etc. and I have no time to stop to exchange breath, thank you Bonnie!"

Would I do that to a friend I valued highly?

Sometimes I can stop and deal with her baby ways and baby neediness, and other times I can only explain to her as I continue on with my work, hoping that keeping my behavior ethical and myself quietly grounded and focused will be seen by her as respectful: a good friend, I hope.

Just a side note. Yesterday I decided to stop everything around here, all my projects, and put the snow blower back on my little tractor. Usually I do it in two days, take the mower off, then the next day put the blower on. I did it all in one yesterday, and right now I'm sitting her looking at the window at 45 minutes of snowing, the first of the season, and in 45 minutes, it's nearing an inch of snow. I hope this isn't going to be a deep snow winter. Last year exhausted me.

There's a swirling wind that changes direction constantly with it too, so it is going to be into everything; the woodshed wetting our heating supply, the tackroom/feedroom/toolshed, which is the third stall in the barn, and of course the ladies stalls. When I have the chains on the tractor (I dare not let the snow get ahead of the depth capacity of the blower - only a foot or so and I need a path to the barn to be kept open, of course) I must then move quickly on to hanging all the tarps I use to keep the snow out of buildings that need to be otherwise be open.

Sigh. I had hoped for a quiet and restful winter season this year.

But then we have horses. :roll: :funny: :funny:

Hugs, Donald
Nettlepatch Farm, Pacific Northwest U.S.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:17 pm 
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I've been reading this topic and it's really helpfull in many ways. For me it's about understanding AND but mostly now about understanding myself. Everytime I start reading something on the forum my head keeps working and working with questions like "how do I react on this, how does Ruphina react on this and how can this be of any value for me?"

Just wanted to add my experience with an aggressive horse (Ruphina that is).

Ruphina and I once started Parelli (this is years ago) but I quit quite early... I couldn't get the "I most be the leader over Ruphina"thing down. SImply, Ruphina never gave me real control and started rebelling as soon as I started demanding leadership and it aways ended up with me stamping my feet in the middle of the arena and Ruphina smiling at me almost saying, yeah... so that's why you should be my leader? Did many things after, but everything mostly led to a stronger relationship, but no way ultimate leadership for me. But still I had this controlfreakiness within me, I still had to have some control over her to make sure that everything would be safe and sound.

Since I found AND I've been struggling with this. I was relieved since not being a leader wasn't immediately a sign of horrible horsemanship, but I was concerned about not having control and that everything would be fine with Ruphina in control.

Ruphina and I went through various stages of her rebellion, me still trying to have control and, from where I am now... I can see I had to go through this struggle and Ruphina was reacting rather normally to all this. Right now even I am seeing that giving her control doesn't lead to disaster and with a small set of rules wild games can be safe (though I'm still on my way of discovering those rules and what I can change about myself to guarantee these rules for both of us).

Ruphina has been an aggressive mare as long as I know her, due to some neglecting before I knew her. She is focused on food extremely and will kick and
Not controlling (hard as it still is, I had to put away my bridle for it, otherwise I'd keep on riding with it, and actually should put it away again I suppose) was really helpful with this. She now gets moody when I overask her, she is clear when I put to much pressure and I know when to quit, this way we really help each other out.

It's something everyone can do in his/her own way, I did it my way by making small steps and asking Ruphina (really I just opened up to her and verbally asked her) to please take small steps as well, because otherwise I'd get scared. I'm not able to make this big jump to doing nothing at once with Ruphina. We take away control with small steps. To proof we can both handle this. That way it's working way faster for me then making the big step in one step.

But very important is it that you make the first step, let the horse say 'no' and listen to it. Do it safe, behind a fence is really a good advice and show that you both are able to do this. I wish I could have gone to doing nothing at once, but that was to much so I made the big step of not forcing the horse, after which I slowly getting rid of my controlhabit.

Don't know if this is completely okay and alright, but it worked for me...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:15 pm 

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Wow this thread is super busy and great to read!

I think it is a massive leap of faith to lay aside what you know (and is probably working okay, but still not what you want or dream of) and feel like you know nothing! It does take time, but for me the biggest shift was the relief of having no agenda. Today if I don't ride for a few days or weeks, it doesn't matter. There are no more bad days or experiences because we agree on what we do together or we don't do it. We do stuff at our pace when we are both confident.

Hopefully now Lauren you have lots of reading and ideas to start with.
Do start a diary and let us know how you get on. :D

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:29 am 

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Everyone~
:bowdown: THANK YOU :bowdown: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I started a diary! I'll post again on it when I feel betta'. Right now I have a bad cold and have an upset stomach...

~Lauren

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:41 pm 
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Donald Redux wrote:
Writing in strict behavioral terms, Romy, "punishment," isn't pressure release based (The Parelli Method). It is, when properly examined, very subject to unpleasantness from the horse's perspective. Thus it could be seen as punishment for NOT doing something one wants the horse to do.


Sorry Donald, I am a bit unscientific in my expressions at times, especially when I am in a hurry like yesterday. :blush:

Yes, most forms of R- based training, especially when there are phases involved (increase of pressure) you could interpret as punishment for not doing something - but still punishment, isn´t it? Because as far as I am informed, the terms reinforcement and punishment refer to the consequence, not the behaviour itself, so that when you are adding or increasing negative consequences for not performing in a certain way, that´s still adding or increasing negative consequences... and not behaving in a certain way actually IS a behaviour I think. So maybe it depends a bit on the question if the pressure stimulus has already been there before the behaviour so that it can be taken away as soon as the horse is performing (negative reinforcement) or if it is added in response to the behaviour of not performing (positive punishment) - which of course depends on what you interpret as the behaviour, the non-reaction or only the reaction. But now I am getting even more unclear in my expressions I am afraid. What I actually wanted to say is yes, I agree with what you said about the terms, I have expressed myself poorly, but I also think that the boundaries between the concepts can be rather blurry and very much dependent on interpretation.

By the way, I have changed the title of this thread so that other people who have similar problems can find it more easily later.
Good luck with your beautiful boy, Lauren! :smile:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:06 pm 
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Romy wrote:
Donald Redux wrote:
Writing in strict behavioral terms, Romy, "punishment," isn't pressure release based (The Parelli Method). It is, when properly examined, very subject to unpleasantness from the horse's perspective. Thus it could be seen as punishment for NOT doing something one wants the horse to do.


Sorry Donald, I am a bit unscientific in my expressions at times, especially when I am in a hurry like yesterday. :blush:


I knew that you knew. My concern was that those new to Operant Conditioning might, in reading, confuse one with the other, and not have it clear in their minds as they work and play with their companion. When I discuss this with students unfamiliar with behavioral work I simply use the terms "ask," and conversely, "demand," or "give an order." This seems to help keep it sorted out for them. At least a little bit.

I'm lucky enough to have one devoted student that is a child behavioral specialist working in the schools. She keeps it straighter in her mind, I think, than I do in mine.

And as a side note I'm rather proud of: she began instruction with me very ambitious to learn jumping to compete. Recently she's asking me to give her, and feels she needs, instruction in riding ... that is riding on the flat. I think she's really thinking hard about her relationship with her beloved mare. And may be looking in the AND direction by her own choice. So cool, just had to add this.

Romy wrote:

Yes, most forms of R- based training, especially when there are phases involved (increase of pressure) you could interpret as punishment for not doing something - but still punishment, isn´t it? Because as far as I am informed, the terms reinforcement and punishment refer to the consequence, not the behaviour itself, so that when you are adding or increasing negative consequences for not performing in a certain way, that´s still adding or increasing negative consequences... and not behaving in a certain way actually IS a behaviour I think. So maybe it depends a bit on the question if the pressure stimulus has already been there before the behaviour so that it can be taken away as soon as the horse is performing (negative reinforcement) or if it is added in response to the behaviour of not performing (positive punishment) - which of course depends on what you interpret as the behaviour, the non-reaction or only the reaction. But now I am getting even more unclear in my expressions I am afraid.


No no, it's perfectly clear to me from what you are saying. I think your explanation is elegantly put. It's just that the concepts appear to overlap and there is a complexity to them because of how humans operate.

I will bet though that "positive punishment," will give anyone new to OC pause for thought. It's a critical concept to understand in terms of training and horse handling. In fact it is in therapeutic work with humans where behavioral methods are being utilized.

Romy wrote:

What I actually wanted to say is yes, I agree with what you said about the terms, I have expressed myself poorly, but I also think that the boundaries between the concepts can be rather blurry and very much dependent on interpretation.


Absolutely agree with you. I can only add that continuing to define terms and clarify, as you are doing, and I attempted, are critical to understanding by those that aspire to AND methods, or that do not for that matter, and want to understand their chosen method better.
Romy wrote:

By the way, I have changed the title of this thread so that other people who have similar problems can find it more easily later.
Good luck with your beautiful boy, Lauren! :smile:


An apt title change.

How can one define non-action as a behavior? That's a rhetorical question of course.

The fact is it can't be described accurate as not-behavior, because it most certainly is behavior.

And it can be so significant in decision making about both what the horse is up to (Dx) and what to do next about it, if anything (Tx). And bringing it up, as you have, reminds me that I must remember to honor and respect the horse's right and more importantly, NEED, to do nothing if it so chooses.

The fact is the entire organism, even when to my eye it is quiet, is very busy doing a great deal, even including resting and recovering so it, the horse, may then be ready to be active with me.

Which is the answer to the question and the request of students, all of us, "why be patient?"

Donald
Nettlepatch Farm

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:36 am 

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Sonny&Red, I wonder if it may help to read the free article "Dominance" on http://www.equine-behavior.com/ which Gwen had pasted on her site.
The answers you have so far, are enlightening and have taken their authors many years of experience to gain and share so eloquently.
I once watched a so called Natural Horse Trainer do very unnatural training by subjecting a horse to a pressure headcollar and the horse's only reward was relief from pain and discomfort.
Simply because the horse was given no freedom of choice, had not had any explanation or clear indication of what the Human wanted and was punished by the halter to perform. It was a demonstration of cruelty I will never forget, yet to many spectators this man is a kind and gentle hero. They could not see why the horse objected. I know that explaining everything in psycho-babble is in vogue, but humans and horses rarely fit into such neat compartments, we all a mix of many factors, and circumstance may draw out our playful, cautious, extrovert, introvert shades. Stress in being misunderstood, unable to express an opinion, captive or in a job we dislike, or being at a party, or working in a vocation with passion are likely to be greater influences to the part of the character/personality which is nurtured or displayed.
(and I know horses who see nothing but their own paddock/stable and the only exercise is ridden in an outline in an arena or lunged, which seems joyless and boring to me when horses are so naturally curious, investigative and exploratory).
Of course if a horse charges directly at you, front hooves, teeth showing, you either work from outside the fence or defend yourself, friends do not do this to each other.

But have a look through the diaries of clicker training successes, bridging the language gaps and allowing each other a voice. I hope this is not something I will personally have to deal with, but I find the topic fascinating and the contributions so well informed and thought through, so thank you for posting it.
Love Susie xx

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