The Art of Natural Dressage

Hi Everyone:

Corado is the type of horse that LOVES using his legs. So.. when I taught him to stretch his front legs, he caught on right away. A couple of days ago, he started stretching his back and ended up doing a back crunch. So I double clicked and double treated. He knows that when I do that, he is doing the right thing.
But my problem now is that he is offering this all the time. And sometimes, I am in front of him and he starts kicking his front legs out to stretch. Today, he just missed me. I decided I wouldn't click anymore when not asked but I wonder if he will stop stretching altogether.
Has anyone experienced this.
Need some advice!!!
Thanks
Jocelyne

_________________
Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!

He won't stop. It will be ok. Just establish a cue now (that is very clear and not confusing with any other cues) and let him know that is when he is rewarded for doing it...when it's cued. When he does it without a cue, you don't have to correct him, just immediately ask him to do something else that he knows well. A little movement sideways will stop his feet really well. Backing is good only if he does it easily. So just ask him for something that will short circuit his offering. Then reward.

It will be ok!!

_________________
"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

Thanks Karen.
I use a small stick and touch behind his front leg when I want a stretch. Could this be the cue for stretching?
If I don't have my stick and he decides to stretch, then my first reaction is asking for a back up. Do I click and treat when he backs up?

Also, now that he knows how to do the back crunch, what could be the cue for that? I tried touching his back but I think that is probably confusing to him. What do you use?

Thanking you so much for your response. It's encouraging to me.

_________________
Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!

Yes! If you asked for him to back up, and he does it, reward it. Then it will help get his mind off the stretching until you ask for that, and then you can be sure that he doesn't see the backing up as a correction for offering something else. All you are doing is ignoring something he offers that isn't safe, and suggesting he do something else. So always, when he does as you ask he should get some kind of reward.

Tam doesn't do a back crunch (that is stretching out and leaning forward, right? But you can just use your hand out in front of his nose to ask him to stretch his neck forward and lean forward a little. That is usually how it is lured, and then it becomes a handy cue as well.

For the Front Crunch (that is what I call an obeisance), I used to use my hand on the top front of his leg (this indicated to him that I didn't want him to bend his knee as he leaned back), but now, it is a touch or tickle under his chest between his front legs. This change is because I'm now asking him to put his head between his front legs for the Front Crunch (I am also trying to teach him to space his front legs a bit farther apart - I'm still helping him do that). In time, I hope just a tap in this spot will elicit the Front Crunch. But really, touching Corado's back is fine as long as you don't want to use that specific cue for anything else. It doesn't really matter. He will also read other body language that you give...your position in relation to him, what your other hand is doing, many things!

Besides...if you start with one cue and later you find it's not convenient, you can retrain the same behavior and integrate a new cue very simply. It just takes a tiny bit of time, but it's not too difficult.

This is the very nice thing about training with rewards. Most things can be altered or shaped in a different way after they are already learned one way. This includes the cues!

_________________
"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

Thanks Karen.

I'll study what you just wrote and try to get it right.

Thanks for your help.

P.S. I wasn't rewarding when backing up but I didn't see it they way you explained it. I will from now on.

_________________
Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!

For me, she is just not allowed to go waving her front legs when I'm on front of her... not because she will consciously hurt me, but because she might also try it with others and they might interpret it wrong. And although I'm pretty sure she doesn't want to hurt me, doesn't mean it can't happen in an accident.
So, I reward when I'm next to her for a stretch, but not when I'm on front of her.
Tried different things when she did it in front of me, first tried to move myself to her side and reward then, but she turned with me (is starting to become a pirouette in walk). So that didn't work. And actually I ask her to back as well! Works really nicely (she happens to like backing up so that's a plus), so I reward her for the safe stuff she's offering me, the stuff I'm not happy with like stretchingin front of me, gets ignored or I tell her softly that it's a very good exercise she's doing but not when I'm on front so if she please will back up for me.
Don't know why (must be your intend) but it really works best for me to tell her that I appreciate her showing off, but that I'd rather see it in a less dangerous situation.

For me the last part was very important, since Ruphina just starts to offer stuff out of her own, I feel I shouldn't ignore her attempt to show stuff to me. When I don't say out loud (though others might think I'm completely crazy ) it's just not the same... the whole feeling I'll get from her will be "Hey, but I tried something and that's not good? " when I explain why I don't like it, she'll happily back up and be proud nonetheless

But as long as your horse is fine with ignoring and backing up, that would be my solution as well!

_________________
kirsten
time is what you make of it

Although horses will offer what feels best to them (and often a nice stretch feels WONDERFUL), they mostly tend to offer what is rewarded the most frequently. So when we're training a new behavior, we reward really often, or rapidly for every attempt as we're shaping it. Since a horse wants the food, of course they'll offer what gets them the most food. So with behaviors that are potentially unsafe, I don't work a LOT on them - just work on it a little, then on to something else. Also, with unsafe behaviors, I really think about where I am in relation to the horse when I first start it (that's why I didn't start Spanish Walk in front of Tam, but kept trying from the side). I'm also pretty careful about what I reward the most. From day one, the ONE behavior Tam could offer without a cue that would almost ALWAYS get him a treat was ramener. We worked on that the most. Right now, it's his passage in hand. If he trots to catch up to me, most likely he will begin to passage as soon as he's beside me ( ) and if he offers that without a cue, he will still be rewarded lavishly for it.

Now, we do have a situation in which I will reward a freely offered Spanish Walk. That is when we're walking too and from the pasture. Tam started this, and because he is beside me and not likely to touch me with a hoof, I will reward a freely offered SW in this situation. It's becoming a bit of a habit for him, and that's ok because he offers his best SW then and it gives me my best chance to work on it. BUT...I only reward high and slow ones. If he freely offers lazy ones, I just tell him that it's nice, but not food-worthy.

So just reward something very safe, very often, and only reward the other stuff when it's cued (and don't reward it if it's freely offered).

Horses figure out what's rewarding pretty quick.

_________________
"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

I have been asking Corado to back up when he lifts his legs in front of me and I reward when he does (like Karen suggested).Now when he lifts and I ask for a back-up, he seems to know because he only lifts once and then backs up. And when he does lift, it's now with less energy. So I hope he will stop completely one day.
Yes Karen, they seem to looovvve stretching. I've been doing some stretches with both magik and Corado every morning for a few weeks now and they seem to like it. That's when Corado started the back crunch on his own. And I'm having less difficulty with Magik when lifting his hind legs now.

That makes sense because everytime I teach them something new, both Magik and Corado will offer anything that's close to what I'm asking; because we treat for every little improvement. I guess that's the way they learn. At the same time, they are experimenting hoping for a treat and when they don't get one, I assume they will try something else until they get it right, then a click and treat. I just love this method of training!

I did start teaching Corado the Spanish walk but I can't seem to get him to take his first step while lifting his leg? Do you have trick to teach this?

By the way Karen, do you intend on going to the AND clinic at Donald's place next year??

_________________
Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!

I haven't made the commitment to go, because I'm not sure I will be able to. I have to wait until it's closer, then see if I have the time available and the money!



You do know they have to set the foot down to take a step?

WE discussed it somewhere...let me see if I can find it!

Here it is Spanish Walk and Polka

_________________
"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"