The Art of Natural Dressage

Edit by Romy: This discussion is a split part from the thread about desensitising.

I like the way this discussion is held. Now, if Annette won't kill me for bringing her thread slightly off topic ( ), I would like to ask a few more questions about this clicker method, since we have already touched the subject here.

I won't say that I'm entirely against using treats for training. I did sniff into this a tiny bit before coming to NHE, but never did any real clicker training (only starting out with it combined with long reining dressage). Yet I am a bit curious about how you experience some things regarding this method.

Donald said:

Well, I do not doubt that clicker training is effective. Yet, I would worry a bit about it becoming sort of a short cut to higher elements?? The thing about Haute Ecole at liberty that always made me feel all warm inside, wasn't the elements themselves, but the fact that they reflected a great bond between horse and man. Do you who use treating for elements think it weakens this bond? How do you experience this?

Another thing is that I'm worried that I might get a horse who won't do anything if he finds I have no treats with me that day. Now this would be quite fine if there was a strong bond underneath it all, but I have seen people treating the horse also for the playing. Surely this must undermine the relationship a bit, or?

One thing I have been wondering about, is how do you do this when you finally get in the saddle and start riding with a cordeo? Do you stop the horse to give it a treat every time he does something good? I don't think I've seen much treating in the videos where people ride, so I just have to ask...

I but the most important thing I'm wondering about, is how it affects the relationship between the horse and the person, positively or negatively. How do you who use it experience this?

Karen said:


Now, I quite like this thought. By the way, it's Annette, not Morgan. Morgan is Annette's horse.

Looking forward to seeing where this goes. It's an interesting subject, that's for sure.

Lots of love,
Anne

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The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return....

We have had this discussion in other places, but at the moment, I'm much too lazy to go looking for it! Others will give you better answers (certainly more educated ones) but I can say that using food rewards is a training tool. It is not the relationship. They intertwine, of course, but just as my whole relationship with my horse is not based solely on the fact that I give him hay every day, the food I use in training also is not the definition of our relationship.

It does not replace just being with your horse. It does not take the place of those quiet moments of grooming, greeting each other in the pasture, etc. Will my horse come to me in the pasture and ask to do something for a reward? Yes, but if I have no food, he does not run away. We also practice doing nothing.

I use the clicker when riding as well. Becuase the clicker (for me) signals the moment of behavior I wish to reward, then yes, when I click the behavior ends. That's just the way it is. But another very valuable way to reward for a brilliant movement, is to stop and get off. End it. That is a wonderful reward.

So no...it does not affect the relationship in a negative way (or else none of us would do it). It enhances training, it provides a means to be exquisitely exact in telling the horse what he/she is being rewarded for, and in this way it most certainly can speed up the learning process in a mutually fun way.

Rewarding a horse for playing, when you have a horse that is very uncertain that they are allowed to express themselves in this way, helps to unlock the door sometimes. Sometimes that door is never unlocked...but the try is still appreciated by the human, and the horse appreciates the small food gesture.

So long and short, food is food, and relationship is relationship. Neither is dependent on the other.

It is a training tool that can have a positive effect on the emotions (and beneficial endorphine response) of the horse. Chewing something tasty is a pleasure for a horse.

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

And sorry Annette for calling you morgan, but when I'm not sure, I call people by their avatar name!

That's why I just use my real name It keeps everyone from calling me Cisco.

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

Hi Anne,

here are a few threads about food rewards for you:

Thoughts about: Rewards, Pressure/Release, Treats, etc.

Food as reward

Rewards/treats

About food rewards

Maybe we can continue the treat discussion in one of them?

Warm Regards,
Romy

There are bad short cuts, and there are good "speed of results."

With an AND mindset it becomes rather difficult to short cut what a horse can't physically do. And in fact, unless one is using pressure along with treats (a sure fire way to mess things up) it's darned hard to "force" the horse to do what he's not ready for.

To me, and I believe to others here given how they've posted about results, clicker training is overwhelmingly a positive interaction for the horse, and is a way of encouraging play and exuberance that might never be triggered by other methods.

I believe, Ann, that you might be mistaken about bonding. I see two factors that are known to increase bonding when one uses clicker training...food, and fun. Play and food.

Works for me. And by that I mean personally. I pretty much trust those that want to feed me and play with me. As long as they don't force me (and thus betray our bond) I'm fine with it.



I recently suggested that books on clicker training be read, or in lieu of that, starting up a conversation with some of our more successful clicker trainers in AND. They will be the first to tell you that it's not about "clicker training," and "treats," so much as building the horse's sense of participation.

If you read you'll find, though it's so unspectacular as to not be mentioned often, the removal of the "treat," is a goal. And reduction of numbers of times one treats a asked for behavior is inversely proportionate to the energy a horse will put into doing that behavior.

This is, of course, up to a point. If you NEVER treat it again, chances are the horse will reduce or even stop the behaviors. But the occasional treat usually reestablishes the behavior very strongly.

Often more strongly than before.



No. And yes.

The click isn't a trick. It has a purpose. It is called the "terminal bridge signal." It tells the horse he has done what you wished, and a treat is coming -- soon.

The interval between click and subsequent treat, can, at certain times in training, be increased. Without the click the treat and the behavior would not be connected for the horse, but if the click is followed by a treat, one can gradually increase the time.

It probably varies for different horses.

My dog was getting lazy about a rule in the household (I'm slightly allergic to dogs and cats) that rather than slobber all over me with joy (He's a Black Lab, of course) he must proceed to his bed (the one by the wood stove) and wait.

I was clicking and treating every compliance for too long. I remembered and started intermittent reinforcement of about three treats, one or two clicks with no treats. He improved.

Then I started increasing the interval after the click for going to his bed and laying down and waiting. He's classic. He really got it. He'd run to his bed. He'd wait five, ten, even twenty minutes (if I remembered to click and sometimes if not) and then I'd reward. Sometimes, and sometimes not.

Pretty soon he did not have the "entitlement" problem I think you are referring to. He stopped basing his compliance on my producing a treat.

Note that AND folks that click treat get a great deal of spontaneous playful behaviors from their horses. They could click it or not. But they still get it.

In fact, and this should be recorded somewhere, if you have an unwanted behavior coming from the horse (that doesn't endanger you) click and treat to gain control of it, then extinquish it later by stopping all clicking and treating.

A horse that is responsive to operant conditioning (c/t being one of the methods) being used with them has a whole new world open to him, as does the owner.



Positively. And I'm certainly not alone. I find that humans I feed tend to like me. And if I'm funny, entertaining, and in addition, transparent with my thinking and emotions that too tends to result in a positive relationship.

Food, or clicker training is not the only factor to consider. The quality of the relationship does. The horse that learns, for instance, to trust you when things get explosive, and that you will help them certainly has a "good" relationship with you.



I would take bets that if some other method was more effective as a tool for having a better relationship with the horse AND folks would be using it. It's not about the tool so much as about the relationship.

I am very skilled at, and made my living for twenty years from, pressure to coerce a horse into compliance. I trained and coached in performance horse work. Both Western and English.

And compared to most I was a very gentle, kind, and considerate trainer. Nevertheless I forced horses to do what I demanded of them.

At least from my perspective now.

I use clicker training as much to shortcut my own tendency to coerce the horse, as to ask him without demands. I wish I did it more than I do.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Now, I think I'll listen to Romy and just go read the other threads about treating, but before I do, I'd just like to comment on the response here.

Donald said:






Well, this was kind of what I was worried about. It makes me think that the sole reason for the horse to perform the behavior, was the food reward.

However, I kind of like the idea of food rewards being one of many rewards. So that you reward not only with food, but also with verbal praise, play and so on. Yet, here's a thought:

Karen said:


This kind of makes me think about what kind of operant conditioning we are in. We certainly aren't adding something, so for this to be a tool to enhance a behaviour, it must be that we take away something negative. Which means the riding is looked upon as a negative thing from the horse's point of view. Well, not maybe the riding itself even, but the work being done. Yet this doesn't AUTOMATICALLY say the horse hates our work, because naturally a horse doesn't wish to get exhausted, it feels vulnerable to preditors if it is. Just a thought... Didn't really become an argument for anything! Just my mind working overtime... ?

Anyways, maybe this post does belong more in one of the other threads, so feel free to move it.

Lots of love,
Anne

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The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return....

Don´t worry, as I have split the thread, this one IS about the effect of treats now, so your post is perfectly right in this dicussion and you can just continue posting here if you want.

Hi Anne,

this subject keeps me busy also and I switched between using food reward and not using food reward several times in the last weeks because I was not shure what I find better.
At the moment I do use treats and Filux is very motivated and playfull at the moment. It might have to do with the fact that it is cold and that he has to stay in the paddock instead of pasture most days, but the last few times he even didn't want to leave the arena, always stayed close to me and asked for more exersises and more games.
I have the feeling he does this not only because he wants more treats but because he just has fun with me. I give one example why I think so:

I tought him to play soccer by rewarding him for kicking a ball. (You can have a look at this here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1873)
After very short time I didn't have to reward every kick but he went on playing without stopping and waiting for a treat. If I take a break and the ball is lying around he even plays on its own not awaiting a treat.
So he just recognized that this game is fun itself and a few treats inbetween just add more fun. But I needed the treats to start this of, to give him the first idea, to make him try that game. Than the game itself became the reward because it's just fun.
I hope that I can transfer this to other games and exercises and even riding: That the activity itself is so satisfactory and makes him feel good that I need less and less treats. (I don't want him to do things that are not agreeable anyway).
I made the experience that I often just need a first motivater to "get him down the sofa" but if he once has started the activity itself is fun.

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HI Anne!

You wrote:


I can understand your logic (and don't think you're being argumentative! ), and I think that you're working through the thought in an interesting way.

This is where my head goes with it:

I don't think that stopping riding as a reward immediately suggests that horses look upon being ridden as negative - or at least it doesn't have to.

Absolutely, Karen's last couple of sentences about getting off and ending the session could come from a more traditional pressure/release school of thought -- say, Parelli, for example. However, I think, from watching Karen's videos and reading lots of her writing, that it's far more nuanced than that.

I think pretty much ALL things we do with our horses have the possibility of being perceived of as negative or positive. What I'm experimenting with with my horses (one of whom spent years of his life having riding be not only negative, but extremely painful, and one who I'm just starting baby steps towards riding with) is how to build it as a positive experience for them. We are having big fun with this, and are making some remarkable progress that looks slow from the outside, but big things are changing in their opinions about having me on them.

Karen has also done an enormous amount of work with both of her horses (one older, ridden traditionally, one younger, who Karen started with AND) to translate riding as something that they can enjoy, can find challenging and interesting, etc.

So, for me, it's more complicated than positive/negative rewarding, at least in a literal, moment by moment way.

While I am intrigued by animal behavior theory, and training theory (such as operant conditioning, which I love the idea of and am using a lot), I think that there are some places it can catch us if we're not careful.

I'm groping through articulating this, so bear with me!

There is an enormous amount of awareness we can get and tools we can collect from studying and experimenting with a particular behavior/ training theory. (And there are those on this forum who understand it far better than I do -- Brenda, I think, has the clearest and richest understanding of clicker training, for example, and she has been extremely helpful to me as I've begun to learn about it. And let me also say that I DON'T think the people who are using various training theories really deeply here are doing what I'm about to critique -- instead, I see them as using it as a very sophisticated tool in the larger context of their relationship with their horses.)

However, for me, there is a problem when the experience becomes defined only in terms of the training method or behavior theory -- I see the same problem in psychological theories with people (that I've studied at the graduate level) -- it can be very, very tempting to make the system be the truth and fit the moment, the exercise, the personality of the person or animal to the system, rather than the system work for you and the person/animal.

I think, when we get too enchanted by a system -- any system -- we begin to look to the system for answers and can lose the reality of the experience. We begin to create boxes of expected behavior and responses, and our understanding can lessen rather than deepen.

So -- back to Karen's comment about getting off and stopping the exercise. To take that from a straight behavioral/training standpoint, you're right -- she's not adding anything, so it must be the removal of something negative that is the reward.

However to me, this is far too simplistic a read of the experience. Karen and her horse Tam could be doing something incredibly fun and rewarding and marvelous, that is also tiring and takes a lot of focus, and so saying "wonderful, fabulous, we're done!" is a reward that to me doesn't suggest that the riding was a negative experience -- instead, it says to me that while it may have been wonderful, it also wasn't easy. Resting from a job well done is rewarding, without making a judgment about whether the job itself was enjoyable or not.

(People enjoy this kind of rest as much as horses, I think!)

So -- beyond that, circling back to the positive operant conditioning idea, I'm think that it often has as much value in the larger contexts of our experiences with our horses as it does on the micro level. So -- back to Karen again (sorry, Karen for making you the test subject! You guys are doing so much more with riding that you're a much better example than my clan is! ).

She has taken great time and trouble to set up riding as a positive experience for Tam, through moment by moment experiences and as a larger reality -- and, she's had moments where he's definitely said "I'm not in the mood for being ridden today" that she has respected. So when she begins riding him, they've agreed that this is something that they will do together, and when they stop, they might stop because he's physically or mentally done, or she's physically or mentally done (or they both are! ), or they've achieved something wonderful and both deserve a break doing something less strenuous.

They are having a continuous dialogue about what they're doing and how it's going; they are learning and experiencing together. To me, really getting to this is ultimately the goal of positive operant conditioning -- while we may first explore it by finding little moments of rewarding specific things to build our vocabulary with it, it's ultimately about creating a sense of pleasure for BOTH person and horse about being together, whatever it is we're doing together.

For me, ultimately, working with horses isn't about training, it's about co-learning. And I believe that we learn best when we're playing and happy -- we can try things with each other, there isn't a "right" or "wrong" but instead we're making up a marvelous game as we go along. And that game might have a lot of elements -- from the ground and from the back of the horse.

And this is where treats come in for me -- they began as a bridge for me into opening up all of our ideas about this being play time rather than work time. They were an obvious tool for this, as both Circe and Stardust are total food hounds, and they were a great tool for moment-by-moment positive operant conditioning. But -- that was just the first step for us. They really are more about continuing to keep pleasure coming for all of us as we go -- they love getting treats, I love the fact that they love them, and have learned the power of the pleasure of generosity when I'm working with them. I'm constantly giving them something, even as I'm asking them for something. Ultimately, it's about creating the kind of energy together that I want with them.

This is not about bribing or manipulating for us at all -- this is about expanding their sense of me (and MY sense of me! which is just as important) into She-Who-Brings-Delight. I see that as my first job responsibility, and all other things flow from that.

I use treats a lot, as well as food in general -- one of our "riding is FUN!" games is "Riding While Grazing" -- where I lay or sit on their backs as they chomp down seriously yummy grass (which is rare where we live in California). I'm not particularly worried about when/how/if to phase out food -- we'll figure it out as we go. I'm confident about this because of how differently we're engaging with each other now than how we were when we started -- they are thrilled when I show up, even when I come to their paddock without treats in hand, and they're beginning to think hugs are pretty cool, too. I trust that we together will figure out each step as we move forward.



Best,
Leigh

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"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com

I did laugh at this - my stable boy is named Cisco!

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Richard Maxwell

As we consider questions on reward, pressure-release, and relationship motivations it helps to keep sorted out what our objective is.

Are we tempted to generalize from the specific? That is to say that because a horse (in our experience) responds in a certain sequence and pattern of behavior to specific motives that we can say he will always, or that most or all horses will respond in a similar pattern?

Are there in fact general rules we could identify that would be useful to someone studying this subject of motivation of the horse?

Or is there a combination of rules and modifiers to those rules by way of going to 'the horse,' for clarification with him or her?

I see that we often (and admire and value it) that we move off into questions of ethics, or seek answers from others that are in fact bringing up the ethical questions.

And putting "systems" to ethical tests. Not a bad idea. And often testing them against their own claimed ethics. An even better idea.

Going then from the general to the specific, that is, how I might deal with one particular horse using what I have learned here and elsewhere over the years, becomes a pattern, a model for me to rely on to meet my own objectives in developing a relationship with the horse.

I would hope then for myself, and for the horse, that I would choose to not coerce for most of our interactions, and reserve pressure and pressure release for only those things that are clearly risk of harm issues if not addressed.

Trailering is a good example.

I might use asking and play to see if the horse will consider trailering as part of our relationship activities.

If I need to move the horse for his safety, or for mine, I will use pressure if I ask and he refuses.

Whereas most of our interactions would be around play. I would not use pressure to teach or to force a horse to move a big ball with me across the paddock.

But I would do those things I would do with a friend I'd invited to play.

And I see this with AND a great deal. The human asks the horse to play a particular game. The horse refuses, so the human asks if there is another game the horse would like to play.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Hi Anne,

Wow! A lot of questions...which is good!

To me, the art of clicker training is more than just 'click and treat'. It is a whole science, including shaping behaviors, criteria planning, reinforcement schedules, behavior chains, classical conditioning, adding/transferring cues, building wanted behaviors while extinguishing unwanted ones, etc. I have been clicker training my agility dogs now for about 12 years, tho only 2 years with horses. But the concepts are very much the same tho the reinforcers are very different.

I 'think' your questions have to do with the difference between intrinsic (innate) reinforcers like play and chase and flight, and extrinsic reinforcers like treats and scratches that are physically added in training as consequences to build wanted behaviors.

Certainly intrinsic reinforcers are powerful, but they vary from horse to horse, and are sometimes limited in how we can use them. Like dogs, some have tons of play and chase drives which can be used in place of treats to train, like my Border Collies who we jokingly say are reinforced by the air they breathe!!! Other dogs and many horses just do not have many intrinsic, cuz of breed or training history, etc. Also, some horses were selectively bred for these HE movements and dressage so have more intrinsic reinforcers for this type of work than other horses??

Personally, I have a cold blooded draft and a shut down, high rumped QH so I need to be REALLY creative in order to get energy, collection, etc!!! I am slowly stimulating Lucy's intrinsic drives and working thru her fears, and painstakingly peeling back the layers of Jack's training to see what's at the bottom! For me treat training are essential to keep them in the game without resorting to pressure. Also, Lucy was pretty 'feral' when she came to me and I attribute her friendly transformation to clicker training and classical conditioning using treats for sure.

So I am sure there are some horses with a high play and chase drive that will find the AND type work self-reinforcing and will learn regardless of treats. Maybe you have one of those??? I call them Border Collie horses, and would love to experience that personality someday!!

Anyway, I have just put up two new videos showing 'intermediate' behaviors that were shaped incrementally (LOTS of treats!) with a combination of clicker training, targeting, play, and mimicing.
Let me know if you have any questions.

Brenda

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http://www.youtube.com/user/Lucy04574
http://www.youtube.com/user/Jack04574

I don't think I need to add anything!!!

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

I just wanted to add that Donald and Brenda's posts are exactly what I was talking about when I said I wasn't critiquing how people with a more constructed sense of how to use training theory here work, and how what they do works!

I think they are both examples of how brilliantly it can be done.

Donald's musings on the ethics and modeling of training (especially from one who was a professional horse trainer for decades) is so rich, so important, so thought-provoking.

And Brenda's precision, as always, takes my breath away -- especially as she applies it with such awareness of who her horses are and how they are likely to learn and experience things.

Both of them (along with others here!!) have an ability to explore the specificity of a given moment in their interactions with their horses, a particular training technique, etc. while holding the totality of the context of both their experiences over years of engagement with animals and their horse in that moment.

They are able to pull from the well of tools, experiences, etc. and have a whole array of ways to interact with their horses, and ways to discern/learn from what the experience is bringing them.

As an impressionist/watercolorist/jazz musician "rules? what are rules?" broad brush painter , I love Brenda's thoughtfulness -- I see you as a composer of fugues, Brenda, or a writer of Shakespearian blank verse, or maybe a pointillist --"Sunday in the Park with Jack" becomes an exquisite painting of many, many micro-colors of training, using the discipline as the inspiration to create something magical and memorable.



Leigh

(On my good days, I aspire to Monet...on my bad, I fear I'm something more like Rube Goldberg...! )

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www.imaginalinstitute.com

For me it's always the question when someone means with 'relationship'when they ask this question: the relationship you have with your horse, or the way your horse sees your relationship?

I don't think a relationship with your horse is about treats, but instead that it's about your responses:

1. what do you do when your horse does something great? how do you respond, with what timing, and does your horse understand what you mean?

2. what do you do when your horse does something you don't want? (ignores your cue, does something bad, does an entirely different thing) How do you respond, with what timing, and does your horse understand what you mean with your response?

You can fill in any type of answer you like, and it will show you very important aspects of the relationship you have. If you 1. treat and 2. up the pressure untill the horse complies, you will have a very different relationship from when you 1. ignore and 2. get angry, or 1. reward without timing and 2. ignore.
To put it this way: if you behave like a controlfreak, your horse will feel different about your relationship when you act unpredictable, or layd back, or aggressive, or ...

Of course it's our dream that we don't have to stimulate our horse to do anything and he will do it all by himself because he loves us - but the fact is that he won't have a clue on what to do in order to prove his love to you, if you don't tell him what kind of things are right. My boyfriend might kill my annoying ex out of love for me, but that doesn't mean that I'm completely happy with that signal, or his way of expressing his love for me.

So just as the ponies correct and reward me ('if you ask it in such an annoying way, I won't do a shoulder-in for you but instead ignore you pointedly', 'great idea, let's do terre a terre!'), I also return my ideas to them in the most clear and precise way I can so that they know exactly what I mean so that we can use the time we would otherwise waste on confusion on exploring great new things.

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