The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:41 pm 
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Another thing is that collection isn't a static thing: it is a process, a living thing, a thing that changes with every movement, every exercise. A horse is more collected, less collected, but most of all always learning to collect. Every classical dressage rider will tell you that - it is the reason why they always continue training, suppling, gymnastizing and strengthening their horses.

I don't have the illusion that Blacky or Sjors will ever be truly collected for every second of the training. We play too much Chase the tiger for that. 8) :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:44 pm 
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Thank you Bianca! That adds up to my conclusion :)

@ April, this is exactly what I started this topic for. Interesting!
I think it is time that we define what we (AND founders) think is collection.
Of course that does not mean that every one has to agree.
It is only to make clear what we mean by collection so we can have no confusion :)

I have seen collection here, a few paces here and there ridden or not.

And did you not see a true and very collected levade last sunday from Owen, Miriam, or am I crazy?
:joker:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:57 pm 
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And I am so happy I have been to lazy to train the ramener too much.... 8)

Let me see what's next I'll be happy not to train :lol:

I also watched the principles dvd the other day - and when i watched A ridne this black horse (I will never know who is who :oops: ). He seemed to me to put too much effort in keeping his head too high (for him at the moment with not more understep from behind).

I do very much as you think (whe I finally started to think) that the headposition comes higher up when hindquarters are more and more engaged.

I remember also from my past as a rider 8) I was riding this dressage-horse. Very stiff old gelding. He was always put too high in the front from his owner. But when you gave him time to soften his muscles (I probably would not have ridden him at all today, this poor old stiff horse), you could feel him rose from behind - and thenall of a sudden he also carried his neck high adn proud, without tension and struggle.....

So, what I am trying to say is that all you say here makes so much sense to me - thank you.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:03 pm 
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Kirsti wrote:


Let me see what's next I'll be happy not to train :lol:


oh good one, me too me too! :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:04 pm 
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:lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:11 pm 
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I think we come to the conclusion in this ... it takes muscles not only from the front to raise the neck but mostly from the back to get a collection. If the average horse weighs 600 kg and normally there is 200 kg weight on the back they have to build up strength to put 200 kg more weight on the back or so? Just my logical explaination ;)
So if you explain this to human measures and reverse it (our legs are used yto carry our bodyweight but what happens when we have to pick it up with our arms?) you not only have to lift up 1/3 of your bodyweight but also have to keep it in the air for a whole training session. I get tired only thinking about it :lol:

A big applause to our horses :applause:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:14 pm 
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Josepha wrote:
I think it is time that we define what we (AND founders) think is collection.
Of course that does not mean that every one has to agree.
It is only to make clear what we mean by collection so we can have no confusion :)


Can I add this we are all the members here? It would be handy if the members here have an understanding everyone can agree on what is meant by collection in what degree or so? not only the founders ;) I think this is what you mean by your post but I was thinking there is maybe a bit of confusion about the way you put it in words :wink: no offence :D

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:56 pm 
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Well no, I meant us three, for as April concerned for instance, she sees it differently then I do.
Which is of course fine, we do not all have to agree.

But as long as every one knows what we 3 think is collection, we do not have to have discussions about it.

If everyone else on the forum agrees, well, than that is just very beautiful and 'handy' but not neccessary... or so I think.

Not to enforce, but to explain :)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:57 pm 
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Aha I understand! :D

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:01 pm 
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Bianca wrote:
I think we come to the conclusion in this ... it takes muscles not only from the front to raise the neck but mostly from the back to get a collection. If the average horse weighs 600 kg and normally there is 200 kg weight on the back they have to build up strength to put 200 kg more weight on the back or so? Just my logical explaination ;)
So if you explain this to human measures and reverse it (our legs are used yto carry our bodyweight but what happens when we have to pick it up with our arms?) you not only have to lift up 1/3 of your bodyweight but also have to keep it in the air for a whole training session. I get tired only thinking about it :lol:

A big applause to our horses :applause:


Grand explanation!

And having said this, balance IS the key!
When the forces of nature apply to a person, horse or human, to bare more weight then you ussually would or should, you need balance.

For instance, when I was fitness instructor I could do 6 to 8 squats (Leg bending with barbel on your shoulder) with 65 kg!
And I myself weigh only 50!

Image

The key to do it was technique, balance, breath and... believe!

But it indeed are moments, no vast periode of time.
And one day your were much stronger then the other.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:07 pm 
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As I play with Beau, I always kind of forget to use my cordeo, we are too caught up in playing, so I don't ask ramener, and when Beau does a shoulder in and I see him stepping under, then he starts doing ramener by himself, he also does it in his jumps and even a bit in the spanish walk, he puts his head that way, and he starts lowering in his hindend, so I guess that's the right thing he is doing, but he also just keeps it for a very short time.
But when we just walk, he doesn't put his head this way, when he is excited and trots or canters he has his head set to and starts to swing in his movements.
So I was thinking to train him at ramener in a walk, so he would do it at the walk too, but I am in doubt now.

I wish I could show you all, that you could be in the pasture with me!!

but I was thinking
1) Beau is trying and testing so much that I think I should let him be
2) walk is the only gate he is not trying to set himself in, so I doubt whether to train ramener in walk or keep that as a calm thing.

We do play with the ball and the tiger to stretch a bit after playing, we play 10 min and then tiger 5 min and stop. But should I stretch after every attempt of him to shorten and lift himself?

I love this subject...
I would love to have someone sitting in the pasture going : ' now he's collecting, now he's not....'

I'll try to let Adriaan film more again, so I can see... but he is more distracted with an audience :)

For me I guess collecting means: stepping more under, lowering his overbuild booty :), raising in front and swinging in his movement but in a controlled way ( and trying not to get our legs stuck in doing this ;) ) because that's what Beau does, he tenses all his muscles, including his neck and then starts moving while he is really concentrating on what his muscles are doing, you can see him focusing.

And you should see it, because I feel hopeless explaining this!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:21 pm 
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does the "sight" of collection not differend between the breeds?
Just flew through my mind :idea:
Looks a collected friesian horse the same as a arabian horse? Or a collected icelandic the same as a spanisch horse?
Is there any differences to see??
Is there any differences between the gait he is going? Have every gait his own kind of collection?

I think collection have a great deal to do with balance, softnes and flexibility of the horse.
and i do not think that is possible at all times.
You have movements with and without collection moments.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:15 pm 
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Barbara I'm curious to see what you mean in film :D

Inge My experience is that indeed collection is different for every horse. Evita has a very heavy front (big neck) wich bends not so easily. Also she has strong hind legs but a weak hind. Collection is difficult for her, I see this also when observing her in the pasture when she is exited. For me at liberty its best to see the talents of a horse to shift the weight to the back. Evita tends to curve her neck but downwards so she falls with het weight to the front. Galopping and 'terre a terre like movements' are happening by her throwing her front in the air instead of pushing from the hind.
Imperia is lighter in front (more a modern type of Spanish horse)and she has a very strong back so collecting for her is almost like a normal way of movement. She rears very high (not trained or asked at this age ofcourse) because she has the strenght wich is more difficult for Evita for example. So even within a specific 'brand' of horses you get great differences.

The pictures on the bottom of my post displays a trained Evita, she can't do this movement now anymore because she has became so weak in het back from delivering Unico. So we have a lot of work to do ;)

You see the picture of Imperia and you see she easily carries herself :)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:28 pm 
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That is a real good one too Inge!!!

@ Barbara, oh film film... but I think I know what you mean.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:15 pm 
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Good point indeed. I know Romy wrote something about the difference between Titum (tiny arabian) and Summy (more stocky built) and their movements in her diary.

I also saw Honza Blaha a year ago working at dressage at liberty with his hafling-lookalike Gaston and his arabian horse: they collected in a very opposite way. The arabian was really floating, dancing with very elastic but not so powerful collected movements, while Gaston, being heavy an pony-like in build, was moving very powerful and composed in collection, but not as floating as the arabian.

So there certainly is a difference between breeds, even between horses when they're built in different ways.


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