The Art of Natural Dressage

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 Post subject: Re: Friendship Training
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:06 am 
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Just quickly, because I really have to get some sleep (it's long after midnight here).

Heart_of_Equus wrote:
Quote:
Oh, I just think we came from different perspectives.

Could you please explain the 'different perspectives'?


I meant the different frames of reference, with BHR drawing a comparison to other programs' marketing strategies while I was thinking about the way other members of this forum share their experiences. So with the different perspectives I meant the perspective of the professional who has to sell his product to make a living vs. the perspective of the individual who wants to talk about his experiences. I was implicitly assuming the latter.

Quote:
Quote:
That's just what the forum was designed for and that's what pretty much everyone does here, so I somehow thought that when the FT followers arrived at AND, that was their intention, too.


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but is Anne Louise supposed to delete her post? Or mine?


No. What makes you think that?

Quote:
Could you point out any other interactive formats designed specifically to establish the Peer Attachment relationship between horse and human? (Especially those that do not use restriction or gadgets.) I'm always interested in learning!


Have you looked through the 'Groundwork: Exercises' subforum here? Maybe there you find something of interest. You could also take a look at some of the diaries if you want very specific info on daily interactions, but then of course everyone is different and we also have members who include leadership ideas into their interaction with their horses or use tack.


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 Post subject: Re: Friendship Training
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:09 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:26 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Dallas County Texas
It must sound a bit confusing when it is stated that Friendship Training has nothing to do with either horsemanship or 'training.' (The preconceived notions and traditional values of both being counterproductive to any true interspecies bonding between horse and human.)

The goals of both require varying degrees of behavior modification.

The FT goal is perception modification. How your horse perceives you, and his regard for you, are all important to any lasting, harmonious relationship.

Is there incidental behavior modification? Definitely! As the PTSD of our present day management, care and 'training' is nullified, the horse cannot help but alter their behavior.

As Terrie mentioned, (through both the required reading/study and viewing material and the interactives themselves) the human's perceptions and understanding are altered as well.

Laws of Intention, and Laws of Appreciation, are undeniable forces to be reckoned with. To do otherwise would mean losing the rewards of humility and compassion.



Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss & Combustion
( And Rebel & Nikki )

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 Post subject: Re: Friendship Training
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:17 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:26 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Dallas County Texas
Quote:
So with the different perspectives I meant the perspective of the professional who has to sell his product to make a living vs. the perspective of the individual who wants to talk about his experiences. I was implicitly assuming the latter.


Oh! I DO receive a monthly stipend from several very gracious sponsors who deem FT worthy.

And sadly, I have had to turn down quite a number of applicants for various reasons.

Quote:
Have you looked through the 'Groundwork: Exercises' subforum here? Maybe there you find something of interest. You could also take a look at some of the diaries if you want very specific info on daily interactions, but then of course everyone is different and we also have members who include leadership ideas into their interaction with their horses or use tack.


Leadersdhip, (to FT) is a 'slippery slope.' And not one that we need or seek.

I will have a look later ASAP, but I assume they are both scientifically and ethologically based on the Peer Attachment relationship?

Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss & Combustion
( And Rebel & Nikki )

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We can not solve the problems WE have created with the same thinking that created them


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 Post subject: Re: Friendship Training
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:14 am 
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Location: Natal, South Africa
Oh, I am really enjoying this discussion. There is a lot about the idea of FT that I like. I have always tried to get more of a "friends" relationship with my horses than a "master and horse" relationship.

The information about a horse nose works was great. Would you say that the nose is the primary sense for a horse? For example, in dogs the nose always comes first, followed by eyes and ears; in humans the eyes come first followed by touch. I sometimes think that with horses their vision is primary, followed by hearing, scent and touch. It could also be situational, and change depending on the circumstance the horse is in at that moment. I am very interested in your opinion.

My boy appears to stay uncertain until he can see whatever it is that he heard or smelled, and he calms down fastest when he has the opportunity to actually touch and explore. He's not a very spooky horse, and mostly gets worried because he's still young and has a lot to learn about the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Friendship Training
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:03 am 
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Quote:
So with the different perspectives I meant the perspective of the professional who has to sell his product to make a living vs. the perspective of the individual who wants to talk about his experiences. I was implicitly assuming the latter.


One can do both as it turns out. I live as an instructor but still spilled my guts for free on my websites, many magazines, free readings and clinics on big events and especially... this forum :funny: Never thought about that really, just want the info out there for people and with that horses who need it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Friendship Training
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:06 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:26 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Dallas County Texas
"There is no such thing as a 'bad horse.' ;)

Quote:
Oh, I am really enjoying this discussion. There is a lot about the idea of FT that I like. I have always tried to get more of a "friends" relationship with my horses than a "master and horse" relationship.


I find it so ironic that many of the NH format promotions use join up, connection, one with the horse, partnership, etc, etc, and then turn right around to use restriction and dominance. :huh:

Always, ALWAYS, we try to 'look at it from the horse's perspective and THEIR 'understanding.' While it has been used, (abused) 'ad nauseum,' we try very hard to take a completely 'holistic' approach to give our horse as much as possible a carefree, physically, emotionally and spiritually stress-free life. (I have to refuse quite a number of potential family members and applicants simply because they stall their horse.)

Much of this comes from a greater in-depth Understanding.

And much of that comes from Knowledge of others, (and paying PARTICULAR attention to the SOURCES of 'Knowledge.'

That is why the reading/study requirements, (before EVER using the FT interactives) is composed of internationally renown Equine Ethologists, (versus the self-serving anecdotals of 'trainers').

One of them is Chapter 7 The Horse's World (From Ultimate Horse Care, By Dr. Francis Burton at:
http://www.gla.ac.uk/external/EBF/uhcc7.html

I got quite a kick out of Francis lately. He and I and Sandicare have been 'offering a few rebuttals' on the youtube PNH Barney and PNH Catwalk videos. In fact, I made a short video to that effect offering to help Catwalk and Mr. Whitaker, (without ropes or whips or a 'gum twitch').

There are other Equine Ethologists as well, (McDonnell/Mills, Beck, McGreevy, etc).

Possibly the MOST important is the Cloud series documentaries by Ginger Kathrens. I was ridiculed, (?tarred and feathered?) on another forum for suggesting the 'Cloud series' documentaries. :roll:

The reason they are required is quite simple.

If all our lives we only had access to automobiles that had been involved in serious accidents, how would we know how to fix them? Until we saw the schematics and the actual model running perfectly BEFORE the accident, we only be 'guessing' as to how to 'fix it and put it back together again.'



Quote:
The information about a horse nose works was great. Would you say that the nose is the primary sense for a horse? For example, in dogs the nose always comes first, followed by eyes and ears; in humans the eyes come first followed by touch. I sometimes think that with horses their vision is primary, followed by hearing, scent and touch. It could also be situational, and change depending on the circumstance the horse is in at that moment. I am very interested in your opinion.


As always, we try to put ourselves in the horse's place to 'see the world through THEIR eyes.'

In this case, imagine you were dropped in a dense jungle, (with no weapons) that was heavily populated with large predators. If your sense of smell was as great as the horse's, (and you could smell a lion or tiger LONG before you could see them) how dependent -- how keenly aware would you be to constantly sniffing the air to stay alive?

Quote:
My boy appears to stay uncertain until he can see whatever it is that he heard or smelled, and he calms down fastest when he has the opportunity to actually touch and explore.


I rode Able, (Combustion's father) as a stallion. He always 'felt better' about any unique object we came across if we stopped so he could 'paw and sniff it.'

Quote:
He's not a very spooky horse, and mostly gets worried because he's still young and has a lot to learn about the world.


How old is he?

Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss & Combustion
( And Rebel & Nikki )

_________________
We can not solve the problems WE have created with the same thinking that created them


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 Post subject: Re: Friendship Training
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:20 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:26 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Dallas County Texas
Quote:
Never thought about that really, just want the info out there for people and with that horses who need it. :)


As do I.

Whether they join our FT family or not, if I can just get them to pause and 'stop and think,' to learn from credible sources, to try to see the domesticated world their horses live in through THEIR eyes, then I have won! :D

(Although our website is DEFINITELY needing an 'overhaul' soon.) :roll:

Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss & Combustion
( And Rebel & Nikki )

_________________
We can not solve the problems WE have created with the same thinking that created them


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 Post subject: Re: Friendship Training
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:53 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:26 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Dallas County Texas
"The quote says he really doesn't understand or studied the so called "war" dressage at all. So his statements are as thin as air... you can't rage against something you don't know anything about.
"War dressage" is woven into Classical Dressage and part of ancient history. It boils down to traditions wich are kept alive at the 4 big Haute Ecole's in Europe. To make the jump from this to modern dressage only by comparing bits and spurs just says this person wants to display an anger towards a big group of riders, just for the sake of it."

Have been going over some comments made earlier about me, (unbeknown to me) on this topic and would sincerely appreciate someone either apologizing for directly misquoting me, or altering their post, or both, (considering this forum is based on fairness).

I am NOT the author of 'A dressage Critique' written by Ludvik Karel 'Lee' Stane.

Although I DO agree with him on several points, I simply posted HIS article to 'get people to stop and think what they are doing.'

Excerpt:
"Participants in a Feb. 9 conference organized by the Fédération Equestre Internationale (FEI) imposed sanctions on aggressive riding, including that which results in hyperflexion of the horse's neck.

"The group redefined hyperflexion/Rollkur as flexion of the horse's neck achieved through aggressive force, which is therefore unacceptable," the FEI said in a statement. "The technique known as Low, Deep, and Round, which achieves flexion without undue force, is acceptable."

No rule changes were deemed necessary, but a new working group will expand the current guidelines for stewards to facilitate the implementation of this policy, potentially including closed-circuit television monitoring of warm-up arenas at selected shows."

With tongues deadened and bleeding, lolling half outside the horse's mouth from the severe cutting force of the bit, it took them THIS LONG, (with no 'rule changes') to possibly consider 'imposing sanctions'???

(For what it's worth, I was also one of the 'pain in the neck' advocates screaming for YEARS to the AQHA to end the 'peanut rollers.')


Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss & Combustion
( And Rebel & Nikki )

_________________
We can not solve the problems WE have created with the same thinking that created them


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 Post subject: Re: Friendship Training
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:51 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:20 am
Posts: 6231
Location: Dresden, Germany
I edited the initial post so that it becomes clear that this quote is not yours. Sorry for the misquoting, I am sure this was not intentional.

We must ask you not to discuss rollkur and other sports related issues here, just like any other writings that are against other people's training methods or actions in general. For an explanation, please check out the rules of this forum.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Friendship training
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:24 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:26 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Dallas County Texas
Quote:
I edited the initial post so that it becomes clear that this quote is not yours. Sorry for the misquoting, I am sure this was not intentional.

Thank you.

Quote:
We must ask you not to discuss rollkur and other sports related issues here, just like any other writings that are against other people's training methods or actions in general. For an explanation, please check out the rules of this forum.
Thanks!


I did. You're welcome.

Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss & Combustion
( And Rebel & Nikki )

_________________
We can not solve the problems WE have created with the same thinking that created them


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 Post subject: Re: Friendship training
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:12 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
Posts: 1622
Location: Western Cape, South Africa
Hi Chuck,
I am happy you joined us and are willing to share your views. :D
Quote:
I find it so ironic that many of the NH format promotions use join up, connection, one with the horse, partnership, etc, etc, and then turn right around to use restriction and dominance.

Always, ALWAYS, we try to 'look at it from the horse's perspective and THEIR 'understanding.' While it has been used, (abused) 'ad nauseum,' we try very hard to take a completely 'holistic' approach to give our horse as much as possible a carefree, physically, emotionally and spiritually stress-free life. (I have to refuse quite a number of potential family members and applicants simply because they stall their horse.)

Much of this comes from a greater in-depth Understanding.


I think most of us here want the same thing. There are many new comers that come here that make the necessary changes once they feel they are supported and led through this new information. I personally think there is a huge gap in between owners wanting something better but not knowing how to get there. It may take some of them months or years before they are ready to understand and if they just make the change to stabling or feet or feed then they are one step closer. :D
Whats so great about here at AND is that they are not critised or berated and can take the time to learn in a positive environment.

It's exciting to be able to learn about different trainers and methods and to be able to discuss them freely and break down what works for each of us personally in our relationships with our horses.
Quote:
Possibly the MOST important is the Cloud series documentaries by Ginger Kathrens. I was ridiculed, (?tarred and feathered?) on another forum for suggesting the 'Cloud series' documentaries.

It is a wonderful documantary that I never tire of watching and what a great opportunity to be able to watch the wild herd and it's ever changing dynamics. (Now if only I could disappear for a year or two........ ;) )

I have a question you may be able to answer. :funny:
What is the purpose of the chestnut?
Do you know if there have actually been any studies done on the link to scent or is this just a theory?
I have tried googling but could find very little about the chestnut except old wives tales.!!!! :funny:

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 Post subject: Re: Friendship training
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:20 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:26 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Dallas County Texas
Quote:
"Possibly the MOST important is the Cloud series documentaries by Ginger Kathrens. I was ridiculed, (?tarred and feathered?) on another forum for suggesting the 'Cloud series' documentaries."


It is a wonderful documantary that I never tire of watching and what a great opportunity to be able to watch the wild herd and it's ever changing dynamics. (Now if only I could disappear for a year or two........ )


Me TOO! I got a few weeks observation many years ago, (and drn near caught pneumonia in the process). :roll:

Quote:
I have a question you may be able to answer.
What is the purpose of the chestnut?
Do you know if there have actually been any studies done on the link to scent or is this just a theory?
I have tried googling but could find very little about the chestnut except old wives tales.!!!!


About the same here from Google, Bing and Dogpile. If it's a 'scent gland,' my very limited olfactory sense cannot detect any odor there.

But I certainly CAN just above their top lip on either side! :D

BOY! If I could 'bottle that,' I'd be rich! :cheers:

And even if I never sold ONE bottle, I'd have my kids with me wherEVER I went! :clap:

Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss & Combustion
( And Rebel & Nikki )

_________________
We can not solve the problems WE have created with the same thinking that created them


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 Post subject: Re: Friendship training
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:17 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:59 am
Posts: 43
what, Chuck! You've never smelled the chestnut? LOL Lucky you ;) Whew ... there is definitely a musk gland there! :ieks:
I was taught that the chestnut was a residual 'thumbnail' leftover after the lose of the rest of the digits through the evolutionary process. Not sure I was taught right though :roll:
Other ungulates have scent glands in similar places - for marking their territory and maybe even scent marking a mate after mounting. Again - not sure I was given the best info - biologists sometimes guess just like the rest of us :funny:


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 Post subject: Re: Friendship training
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:21 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Hi Chuck and kids,

I've been reading your posts and before that visited your website.

One thought I had as I read your site, and your posts too, was that you and I must have had some very similar experiences.

It is most heartwarming to find someone doing what you are doing, codifying the evolution.

I said in another post recently, when discussing these new ways we look at experiencing horses, that it inevitable this happened, that Chuck came along when he did and brought your skill and ability to the game.

I did 20 years as a professional, and left in dismay, as the revolution was too small to be seen in my time. Only a couple of people writing about any real advancement and that in improving, if you can call it that, the force model, the demand/comply model to be more artful and less forceful, but more clever in how the demands were made.

What I found, increasingly, as I worked with horses, mostly my own, that without the pressure of turning out performance horses and riders that could use my (and the common methods of the day, even if improved models) I fell heavily into play, and companionship. My three year old daughter loving my 4 year old QH stallion, and he her, slavishly, was a lesson.

And the day my stallion, me miles from anywhere, at a remote barn and horse breeding farm, came at me all fury and rage - which, because I refused to believe it, turned out to be his response to my offer to play. He stopped in front of my after snapping his teeth charging and striking toward me, and grinned at me, I yelled, threw up my arms and chased him slapping him on the butt.

My professional career was over. I stopped training to be a competition reining horse. I never put a bit in his mouth again, and I rarely rode other than to just doodle around exploring the countryside together.

Koko culminated all the prior experience with mostly my own horses that wanted to play and he became my career wrecker. I left him with his own herd of mares for life.

I returned 40 years later to horses, not having touched one in that time, wouldn't go to horse shows, wouldn't watch horse racing.

And then, about 4 years ago, I went to a barn to get some spent bedding for my gardens.

Donald, Altea and Bonnie Cupcake.

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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 Post subject: Re: Friendship training
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:43 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:26 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Dallas County Texas
Quote:
what, Chuck! You've never smelled the chestnut? LOL Lucky you ;) Whew ... there is definitely a musk gland there! :ieks:

Not my kids, (or at least what 'I' could smell. But boy that muzzle scent SURE is.....

SURE is....

hmmmm.....

euphoric?

Quote:
Other ungulates have scent glands in similar places - for marking their territory and maybe even scent marking a mate after mounting.


That seems logical!

Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss & Combustion
(and Rebel & Nikki)

_________________
We can not solve the problems WE have created with the same thinking that created them


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