The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:43 pm 
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I just did the greatest discovery since sliced bread, 8) while looking for a rare 18th century book by Baron von Sind - and then accidentally stumbled onto this website which has pdf files on the greatest classical dressage books online, including the images - downloadable for free! :D

http://www3.vet-lyon.fr/bib/fondsancien ... enuouv.htm

It's in French, which is a downside ;), but you have De la Gueriniere, Pluvinel, The Duke of Cavendish, Eisenberg, Von Sind (yes, him too 8) ), Grisone and all the big ones on your computer before you know it. Good reason to start learning French I would say! :lol:

If anybody knows similar sites with the classics in German or English for download, then please place the links over here as well, this is just so wonderful!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:51 pm 
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From Alex, two other great links:

Quote:
here the Corte's book: http://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Il_cavallarizzo (finished)
here the Dom Duarte book: http://pt.wikisource.org/wiki/Galeria:Bem_cavalgar.djvu (just started)

I uploaded into Commons other old equitation books, you can find them here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User: ... djvu_files ; the list is not complete.

As you know, any content of wiki is released under GFDL, t.i. you can do what you want with it.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:57 pm 
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Also from Alex' site on Wikisource:

Both in English:
The 1920 rules for training in Saumur:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User: ... djvu_files

Buissigny, 1922, the complete book online:
http://www.archive.org/details/equitation00bussrich

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:15 pm
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Thanks for these listings!

There are some more including Baucher on the Internet Archive Search - and if you search for Horsemanship there are some quaint books available. Perhaps not relevant to bitless but historically interesting. :)

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=Baucher


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:52 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:13 am
Posts: 182
Location: Italy
Miriam wrote:
Also from Alex' site on Wikisource:

Both in English:
The 1920 rules for training in Saumur:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User: ... djvu_files

Buissigny, 1922, the complete book online:
http://www.archive.org/details/equitation00bussrich


You forgot "my" two transciptions of both books on wikisource! :yes:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Equitation
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Notes_on_ ... e_training

Much more comfortable to read (I guess) but much much much more confortable to copy-and-paste! Freely... both are released under GFDL licence; take a look to details of such licence if you'd like to use the text for commercial purpouses (you are allowed to do such an use, but you've to mention GFDL licence in your work as detailed).

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:24 pm 
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All of these are fascinating...and thank you Alex for your hard work as well...how wonderful!!!! :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:06 am 
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Wonderful, Alex, thanks! :clap:

What projects are you working on right now?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:37 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:13 am
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Location: Italy
I'm just transcribing http://it.wikisoource.org/wiki/Indice:Fiaschi.djvu

Image

This is the page I'm working about now!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:43 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:13 am
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Location: Italy
My work is, converting the image into text... and replacing some of original. difficult formatting (mainly "tituli", that are ancient writing shortcuts). This is the same page, after my work:

Quote:
che io non vorrei essere giudicato per huomo, che in li capitoli passati havessi detto ad un modo, & in questo dicessi ad in'altro, dunque per dichiarare meglio l'animo mio, dico haver parlato in più capitoli, che è buona una sorte di briglia & un'altra, & ancho altre; le quali io non ho nominate, perche s'adoprino tutte; ma perche si sappia, che sono appropriate esse al bisogno delle cause, & difetti, & una più dell'altra, & che essendo il cavaliere in fatti, & vedendoli può ben conoscere più, & meno il bisogno del cavallo servendosi poi di quella briglia, & rimedio, che giudicherà buono. Perche non essendovi io personalmente non posso ciò terminatamente dire, per essere le parti, & difetti differenti; & non vedendo ancho li cavalli non posso giudicare la natura loro. Perche à volere imbrigliare il cavallo bene, bisogna anchora à questo avertire, si come cosa molto necessaria, della quale natura io penso trattare, & si di quella cosa di corsieri come di quella di ginetti, barbari, turchi, frisoni, & d'altri. Et il saper io la importantia grande, che è di conoscer bene, non solo le sorti de' cavalli, ma ancho le nature loro, volendo imbrigliare, con vere ragioni, mi fa dire, per raccordare al cavaliero, che non è di laude alcuna il mutare ogni dì pensiero; ma operare il tutto con la prima, overo la seconda briglia; perche se più oltre si passasse saria segno, che quello che ciò facesse non sapesse la certezza del bisogno del cavallo, ne ancho quello, che operano le cose, che ponesse in opra. Per tanto dico, che quando si è in dubbio, di quello, che fa di bisogno, si dee primieramente porgli briglia più piacevole, che si può; essaminando bene con essa quanto fa di mestieri, per beneficio del cavallo, & poi vedutolo porli quella, che ricerca la sorte, & sua natura; la quale quando si troverà, ch'abbia del dolce sarà d'aiuto molto, per conto della briglia, & pel contrario quando sarà ostinata, disfavore, & tenendo della mediocrità men male. Però concludendo dico, chi'l tutto sia fatto con fondate ragioni, ne per cosa alcuna fare come alcuni, che si servono del tatto in luogo d'occhio perche così facendosi, non si faria cosa, nè laudabile, nè ben fatta, nè meno honorevole.

Il modo, che si dee tenere con cavalli giovani, ò polledri, come vogliam dire. Cap. XXXIIII.


OLtra modo mi spiace il levare si tosto il caveccione al polledro, come addesso usano molti; li quali sono il più delle volte, causa della ruina del cavallo; imperoche quello, ò sia di corda, ò di corame, overo di ferro opera buoni effetti, come è farlo sorgere, tirarlo sotto, & accommodarlo della testa, & del collo, così per il dritto, come etiandio nella volta, & li conserva la bocca, & il barboccio sano; che cavandoglielo non essendo ammaestrato, se li tormenta grandemente la gengiva; perche volendolo insegnargli di maneggiare, bisogna in vece di quello porgli le false redine, & alle volte anchora valersi della briglia, le quali cose son di gran danno al cavallo; perche tormentandoseli come si fa la gengiva, & il barboccio, causasi, che queste parti si rompono, & vengono callose, come fanno ancho non''


Very difficult to understand.... but much less then the original one! :yes:

The last part of the page is really interesting: in brief, it encourages riders to use only a halter when taming and training young horses, without a bit; and to avoid the bit, till the horse has a good training level; since using a halter, Fiaschi tells, you can obtain a good "ramener" and a good head & neck posture, and you don't damage the gums.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:46 pm 
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What an amazing project, Alex!

And this:
Quote:
The last part of the page is really interesting: in brief, it encourages riders to use only a halter when taming and training young horses, without a bit; and to avoid the bit, till the horse has a good training level; since using a halter, Fiaschi tells, you can obtain a good "ramener" and a good head & neck posture, and you don't damage the gums


is completely fabulous.

I think this is important work; I'm so impressed and appreciative that you are wiling to do this. (and, I must admit, in awe of your patience!) :)

Best,
Leigh

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:57 pm 
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Quote:
(and, I must admit, in awe of your patience!)


And skill!!! :yes: :yes:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:10 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:13 am
Posts: 182
Location: Italy
It's so strange and moving to read such old pages, and almost to listen to living voices... Those ancient texts are written in a personal style, just as the writer was speaking to someone listening to him. And... horse problems are always the same, and common riders and common trainers ( :sad: ) too.

Well, I guess that ancient Italian is impossible to manage for most of you, but I guess that ancient French is not... if someone of you is so bold to think about a transciption of some French classic into French wikisource, here I am to help him with "wikitech".

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:53 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:27 am
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Location: Gauteng, South Africa
I just had a look at the site (1st one). It is so amazing to be able to see a book from De la Gueriniere or De Pluvinel on the web, it gave me a very strange feeling.

The 1st book from De Pluvinel is half in French and half in German. Probably the second one too. The French is of course different but easy to understand. I don't think I'll read them on line but thank you for the link, it is really fascinating.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:52 am 

Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:24 pm
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Location: Hungary
So let's explain why I came to AND forum now.

I have just started to build up a great project and a research group some months ago. The aim of the project is to being the first ultimate equestrian knowledge base in the world. Everything on the site will be free to download, share and resdistribute, even print untill nobody is making income out of it (With the exception of selling quality prints while letting people know that they can download it for free.). A unique free licence will be compiled for this. First of all it will be an online library containing an entry for all possible horse book that worths being read. Each book will have an information page including a description, possible critique (that can also be added later) and a download page. The conect is, making everything available on as many language as possible, but first of all, english. A download page will allow you to download each book on any language we have it, in many formats. Also teh info page will contain a link to read the book online in HTML format.

In the first run I try to collect as many books as possible, find out possible copyrights applied, get permissions if needed and upload them all. Then HTML version will be generated from each. In the next run, old scans will be trascribed, and all books will be translated to english, and then later other languages.

The site will also have an articles section, an encyclopaedia, and language dictionaries of equestrian jargon. The whole site's main feature is multilinguality. The user interface will be available at first in English, then Hungarian, and hopefully later in german, spanish, french and other languages. Each contect, the beooks, reviews, articles and the encyclopaedia will all be translated to many languages.

The goal is to make knowledge available for everybody all around the world. It will go from the old masters to nowadays, including dressage, horsemanship history, art and literature, and sciences like veterianary, equine ethology, biology, biomechanics, etc.

In the future I plan cooperation with Good Reads, The Open Library, Wikisource and Google Books, and possibly other libraries.


At this moment I am developing the content management system that will power the features of the site, and prepare the project by collecting basic data and looking for resources. When the first stage is finished I will look for volunteers in many fields including transcribing, translations and research.

Also as a part of the research, I started to work on a book on the detailed history of horsemanship.




As soon as the first stage is finished I will actively look for volunteers and hope that some of you may join.
Also, I am really interested in english translations of all books on horsemanship. If somebody has an english translation that is not available as e-book, please IM me. (Now the most importants persons to look for are Grisone, Guériniére, Pluvinel, Newcastle, but then all the others are needed too.)

Soon hopefully I will have an almoust complete list of books of interest.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:12 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:13 am
Posts: 182
Location: Italy
Well, a great project, Storm, my compliments!

I'll not post any suggestion to you, since some years a go, into a forum, I got this comment about a suggestion I posted:

"Are you trying to teach the teachers?"

A great lesson, an unforgettable one - I'll never work again into an environment where a similar comment can be conceived. This is the deep reason why I appreciate so much AND - here I can't find any teacher, only open-minded friends that share their own knowledge and experience and their mistakes too, if any.

Only a question. Much of the matherial you're going to collect is PD (Public Domain), and any republishing of it, without an original contribution, is therefore PD. Can you detail which kind of official licencing (I presume, one from CC - Creative Commons) you will use for original contributions, t.i. translations and so on? It would be great that you'll use a Wikimedia compatible licence so that at least some of your work could be uploaded into Wikisource, t.i. it will be released with a GFDL or a GFDL compatible one.

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