The Art of Natural Dressage

Ah, but I think that's because you're emotionally stronger in that area that I am. I'm not constantly busy with the spiritual part of my relationship with the pony's either, and I think I'm probably not really gifted in that direction either. But when a person of whom I believe really is gifted in that direction, comes and gives such an analysis, then that would sure have an impact on me, because I'm not that experienced myself on that level.



I guess that's just where our own personalities kick in! When I'm faced with aggression, I'm capable of just shutting that away and ignoring it to some extent. I guess we just all have our strengths and weaknesses. But the thing that makes group-emotion-leader things more dangerous in my own opinion, is that when somebody starts getting aggressive, it's very visible for everybody that that person is trying to hurt someone else. But when somebody is trying to influence another by getting in their minds and manipulating their self-worth, then that can be done very effectively and very subtle at the same time - and it might not be noticed as a problem as fast by the victim and the onlookers.

It's funny, because I really do believe that our own personal development and our relationship with our horses are linked directly to each other. And it must be great to have a teacher who can help you with your human stuff at the same time when your horse is helping you with the horse stuff. The thing is just to find someone you really trust to fulfill that role, and then I would always opt for a controlled and safer one-on-one type of sessions, than large group-sessions because in the latter I think you always risk that the teacher starts focussing his attention on the group and through the reactions of the group on his own person, instead of on the student.

Groups really are fasincating things, and can be quite a handful to direct occasionally. I've seen that too in my own clickertraining clinics: I always work with the participants and their horses one after another, while the rest of the group watches and asks questions. Sometimes though at a certain point the onlookers suddenly start training the participant themselves - in not so subtle ways like 'You clicked too late! You shouldn't do it like that, didn't you see Miriam explain just yet? You're really confusing your horse this way, your horse is making mistakes because of your fault.'
I do realise that for some trainers it would be quite tempting to follow the vibe of the crowd and start talking the participant down in order to raise yourself as trainer above him ('didn't you see me doing it right? If I would have been handling your horse, this problem would never have surfaced in the first place - can somebody from the crow tell me what this person is doing wrong here, and how I did it right?'). But as I'm really itchy about such things myself, I always jump in as soon as I start noticing such a vibe by stating immediately (and not very subtle I'm afraid ) 'Look, I'm the teacher now and I will correct the participant when necessary. And as he's learning just as much as his horse is learning at this moment, I think he's doing very well actually, so why focus on the negative? Let's improve the postive - just as we're doing with the horse - and if you start looking at it that way we're actually making a huge progress.' (and then after saying that also giving the person who spoke loudest some positive attention in order not to let them feel like the black sheep themselves).

Maybe it's not always necessary to act that directly, but as trainer I feel responsible for the safety of both the horse and person I'm working with, and that's not just the physical but also the emotional safety. It's probably my own feeling with this that I'm projecting on the participants for a large part as well as some might not be the least bothered by some people muttering at the paddock fence, but I think that the fact we're actually willing to learn means we're opening ourselves more to the feedback of the environment, which can make us quite vulnerable in those situations. I guess that really is the reason why the Sjors-picture thing could really get at me: not because somebody suddenly tells me that Sjors wants to kill me, but the fact that I've come there to learn, and in order to do so have made myself vulnerable (I will allow somebody/something to question my current ideas, change my borders, challenge my way of doing things up to now) to someone I think I can trust. And if somebody gives me that trust, I feel responsible for protecting him in that situation from things that normally wouldn't be an issue (stupid remarks), but at that moment might have quite a strong impact. I know that some teachers actually use that vulnerable moments to create a shock-effect / wake-up call with remarks that otherwise would be relatively harmless - but I don't really believe in the benefit of that in these horse-related situations and I don't think I'm by far expert enough in psychology to do so and then provide the right care afterwards so that the pupil doesn't sink away in a big black hole. So I'll just stick to clicking and rewarding both the horses and their people.

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New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

Could you elaborate, Romy? What offer? I think I've missed that post...

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"Do you give the horse his strength?"
~Job 39:19a

www.cambriahorsemanship.com

Romy this makes me laugh because when I see you interact with horses you are so connected with them. You just understand them, period. To my opinion you are just not that 'romantic' about it, but down to earth, for you it's 'just' normal.. I guess it's at spiritual as you make it... who knows where understanding comes from.. from which communicating 'mode'? Or many different at the same time? To me your strength is that you just are with horses, not trying to 'produce' understanding, spirituality, amazing insights or whatever. Just be, like Romy and the horse... just grounded and clear... Like Miriam, I think this is just the 'natural' way to be. I don't like "over romanticising" and even though I by coincidence found out I can feel things which are going to happen to my horses, which you can call spiritual, I don't feel I am more capable of understanding horses as you two ... I think most of the time I'm far less understanding

And indeed personal development and horses are very linked!!
There was a woman at my place to read and treat Evita, she is doing much research on many levels, about summer rash. I asked her why I didn't have that kind of connection with Evita like I have with my other horses. And her reply was full of information I already knew. I already understood Evita but wasn't aware of this... But nevertheless it was very useful to have someone to sum it up, to make it fit like a puzzle at the same time instead of having little pieces of thoughts and information at different times. I could see the big picture of my emotional state when I found Evita. I wanted a horse with whom I didn't connect and vise versa. Not like Atreyu because at that time connection and attachment for me meant pain (I was worried sick about Atreyu at that time). I was so clear about that to the people around me and always said "I bought Evita with my mind instead of my heart". And well I got a horse who didn't want to attach or open up herself to me (or others, and just spreads around a smokescreen, because 'they all go away anyway'. So indeed at many times we attract horses which are the mirrors of the state we are in. (That is why Unico is soooo lovely, I'm just lovely now )

My sister does kind of readings but with a huge difference, she does not only brings things to the surface but also treats them, this is the reason why she 'takes a look'. Not just bringing them to the surface to bring them to the surface. I think the explanation of the 'other world' of KFH is him shifting to is higher consciousness to see what is going on with the horse.
I ask myself after reading this topic, is KFH really 'curing' the things he brings to the surface? Maybe for the time being but will it stick when for instance the woman of this clinic comes home? Are others educated when they get an in-depth look into these combinations problems? Wouldn't it indeed be more effective to help these combinations in private? I think it would be... but then the clinics would be more less spectacular I guess... And what if you disagree in public? Does KFH think he's the only one telling the truth or is there a dialogue?
In my company I found out providing indeed positive stimulus, even when you really want to kick someone, is the thing that builds up self-esteem with others the most. If people can let go of the fear of doing wrong and feel safe to make mistakes they can learn en develop and grow.

I also think many of us really know how our horses feel but just are not so very aware of it. Maybe we don't give ourselves enough credit

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Ah, Bianca, you have explained wonderfully the thoughts I was having myself regarding how one deals with the demons they call up out of someone. They MUST be able to help drive it away when they call it up, and not just leave the poor participant to fight it alone.

I would never do anything to another person (on purpose) to degrade them - publicly or privately - if I did not have the knowledge to raise them even higher in the eyes of the public, or in their own eyes as a reward for allowing me put them on the spot. It's a dangerous thing to play with if you are not prepared to assist the healing. For BOTH parties. One must have the words to heal if one wishes to speak the words that will open a wound.

One must always put a great deal of value on the feelings of others because you never know how deep those feelings run, or what other feelings they are attached to.

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

I also attended Hempflings UK clinic, I met Annie and we had a lovely chat and she kindly filled me in on the events of Saturday as I could only attend on Sunday. I enjoyed your post Annie and it reminded me of an enjoyable day, however I probably perceived things from a different angle.

I was particularly interested in how Klaus would work with Mandy and her Arab stallion Wiper (pronounced Viper). I read a brief description of Wiper and the problems he and Mandy were having on the UK Web Site. It reminded me very much of the problems I had worked through with Gouch. So when Klaus decided to work with the young stallion again on Sunday I was delighted.

As Wiper entered the arena he was tense but considering he was a young stallion in a strange place, and this was I think only his second time in the arena I felt he and Mandy handled the situation very well.

Half the picadero was allocated as Wipers personal space and the other half belonged to Klaus. If Wiper entered Klaus's space and showed the desire to fight he was asked to leave if he wanted to be friends he was allowed to stay. By the same token Klaus was not allowed to violate Wipers space. I was surprised at how quickly Klaus settled the young stallion and I paid close attention to the horses body language. As he began to settle his body language became very soft and in no way did he seem to be dominated.

Having worked with Gouch I know that we do not need Klaus to tell us that our horses have lost connection with their souls and are down trodden and closed down. If I was paying him a fee I would expect him to confirm this and to help me find the correct path to help my horse to heal. I suspect that Mandy knew Wiper had serious problems and that was why she brought him to the clinic.

When Klaus finished working with Wiper the little stallion was able to release his pain and suffering it was an emotional time for me as I thought back to the time when Gouch released his pain. I think I cried because it was such a milestone in our journey. I thought at the time that was why Mandy was crying because her horse had been able to let go of his pain.

I did not think Klaus tried to make anyone feel bad, he was speaking in English which is not his native tongue. I felt at times he was having a problem understanding parts of the language.

I think he has a lot to offer with regards to body language and energy. I have been clicker training my horses for the past ten years and I am well satisfied with that style of training. However I am very interested in pursuing the use of energy and body language. There is a possibility that I may be in a position to study his methods in more depth. If this is so then I look forward to expanding my knowledge.

Eileen

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Listen! Or your tongue will make you deaf.

Cherokee Saying

I didn't mean to focus only on a negative aspect...just that it struck a chord with me.

I am fascinated by Klaus' mastery of body language and his skill in making his mind still and clear. This is very, very hard for people to learn. It is a meditative state, certainly.

This summer, I did some round pen training. Not in learning to drive a horse around, but in learning how little I was able to control what I was feeling. You can look relaxed on the outside all you want, but if you cannot make yourself FEEL relaxed throughout your whole being, then the horse will of course see past the disguise and get right to the heart of you. This, I feel, is where Klaus shines so brightly. The mastery of himself is why he can communicate so clearly with horses.

The interesting thing is, that you do not have to achieve absolute clarity. Something close, as long as it is honest, is good enough for a horse to trust.

Fascinating, isn't it???

Although it may be the hardest thing for us to learn, it is more than worth the effort!

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

What I admire in his work with horses most, is how he is able to demand absolutely nothing form the horse, but just be there. I know I occasionally think I shouldn't ask anything of the ponies, but just let them do their own things, so I'll think something like 'Okay, I won't ask for anything, but just observe the ponies in what they do. Right, let's do a Spanish walk!' .

Risking the danger of cross-topicing , I really liked what Werner wrote, on how when studying KFH and hearing less good things about the person behind the method, he decided to judge to see the method seperately from the person. I think that really is a good point of view when studying other methods. Because in reality even though Hempflings own characteristics let him excell in his method, in reality his method isn't about him, but about a way to approach horses.

What a great topic, and do keep us informed about your plans and experiences, Eileen, I'd love to hear more about your personal experiences with his method. Are you planning to go on a trip to Denmark, or are there more clinics in GB that you're going to attend in order to study his method more? And are you planning to participate with a horse, or be an onlooker?
No matter what you're going to choose, afterwards you really should come over to the Netherlands and teach us the belly-hip thing!

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New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

Oh, I didn't mean to focus on negatives either; like Karen, it caught me emotionally -- and that reaction was, most admittedly, as much about my dealings with the world as anything else.

I have enormous respect for what Hempfling has done with horses in his lifetime. He obviously has huge gifts with horses -- and as I hear little bits and pieces about how he stepped out of doing work with other people, I am grateful to him for being willing to step back into it. It sounds from a distance as if it had risk for him personally and emotionally too. I think it's generous of him to be willing to put himself out there!

I first found his work when he wasn't doing an public clinics, and was so disappointed, because I thought he had such interesting things to share. Memories of what his work brought up in me is part of what sent me back online looking until I found AND several years later.

Miriam wrote:



I love that! I produced a conference last spring with one of my most beloved academic mentors presenting on psyche and poetry -- I asked him at one point if he'd like to have a poet there, to provide a counterpoint from the poetic side to what he was saying. He promptly said, "No! Poets have egos, and poems don't." Meaning, of course, that the poems stand in their own completeness and logic and perfection, without the complications of the maybe less logical and perfect poet running interference for them!

Expanding a little on what I was groping towards before in my earlier post, I find this fascinating because it keys into a lot of the work I've done in creative contexts in my life. Finding a balance for people to open and dig into their psyches, but doing so in a way that leaves them safe places to move to is a tough balance to find, and I'm constantly trying to look for ways to do that.

There's something of a conundrum in it, and in much of the soul work that's emerged in recent years (not only in the horse world, but in other settings where people are trying to cut through the surface noise in their lives to get into what really matters to them). In order to get to something of real meaning, we ask one another to open up -- but we have a responsibility to allow one another the choice about how far we're willing to go, and must find ways to provide ballast and balance if something pops open that wasn't anticipated. I have seen this mismanaged in so many contexts that I have both a big pull towards it, because I know how powerful it can be when it opens, and a huge wariness about it, because I know how damaging it can be if we (the person, the group, the leader) aren't sure about how to handle that opening well if it's painful.

In archetypal psychology, my academic field, there is an awareness that when we open the door to the energies of an archetype, its shadow comes with it. At least here in the US, in my experience, a lot of people underestimate that shadow's power. It's seen as exciting (which it can be), but I think its potential danger gets underestimated.

Part of learning to balance that as a teacher/leader is learning to have a certain kind of emotional distance. Perhaps this is where my greatest difference with Hempfling emerges -- (I'm extrapolating from what I've read from him and Annie's comments above) it seems to me that he's learned that if he stays emotionally separate and cool, he can be helpful. I think that's a perfectly legitimate approach.

Mine is different -- if I come from a place of love and affection and true celebration, I find that I can help propel people forward (which I what I'm trying to learn to do with my horses -- and it seems to be working). For me, the detachment is from my own ego and sense of what I think the outcomes should be. I want outcomes -- am not a total process person -- -- but am learning to be excited about the outcome that emerges, rather than the one I thought was going to come or should come before the experience. I see my job, when leading people in an experience like this, is to create an opening for them -- and they get to decide how far they want to step in. I see myself as an inviter rather than a commander...

(Again, this is as much about my work with people as it is with horses.)

Anyway, I'm not sure how much of this is relevant to Hempfling's clinic, but I appreciate the chance to chew on it a little bit! And I know that, as someone who's done this work with people, it can be a hard sell to say, "come, and let's figure out together what you'll learn and experience!" People, perhaps justifiably, are usually looking for a more concrete promise before they'll spend hard-earned money and time for a clinic, workshop, or conference.

Thanks for, as usual, tolerating my rambling!


Leigh

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"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com

Perhaps Leigh, that's the difficulty any clinician has in trying to sell a method that has as its base something intangible that they have learned from years of life experience?

When I watch people (on DVD) like Hempfling or Philippe Karl I can see that they have a naturalness that can't really be taught. Philippe Karl tries to teach flexions as a way to legerete- but I think (IMHO) that his success comes from having brilliantly independent balance and using the age old gymnastics can set a horse up for success within minutes. But it's the rider independence I bet - not so much the flexions. Flexion comes with self carriage and raising the base of the neck from the hindquarters and the back (as one way of understanding at least) ---

and Hempfling with his background seems to have great animal instinct and intuition born of experience combined with great body control from dance. How can he teach someone who doesn't have that background without starting from scratch? Terribly difficult in two days.

anyway I understand the difficulty in teaching the near unteachable. And how gurus get stuck where they shouldn't be (on a pedestal).

blessings,

Mouschi

Oh no I didn't want to say anything negative about KFH either! I think it's beautiful to read and see the way he interacts with horses! Thanks so much for sharing!

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What a totally interesting discussion and I´d love to write much more, but I am in a terrible lack of time right at the moment, so maybe I will write more later (on Saturday).

Just one quick reply:



Hannah, we had a discussion some weeks ago which was about becoming emotional in your interaction with horses and in some way it was linked to Hempfling, but I don´t remember how exactly (but it´s all in the topic I linked to, so you can take a look). Anyway, I mailed him to ask if he wanted to take part in this discussion and landed at his secretary´s office. She contacted him for me and then told me that he had such a terrible internet connection at his island that he could not take part in this, but he said that we were invited to ask him questions if we wanted to. He also said I could call him, but I didn´t, because I didn´t have any questions to him personally and for me the interesting things are those that develop within a discussion. But the offer is still there: we can ask questions if we want - you will find the email address in the other topic.

Hi Mouschi, and welcome! (I don't think I've gotten to saying that in your intro yet!):-)

You wrote:



Oh, I think there is a lot of truth in that, and I think it's part of the challenge for anyone trying to teach skills and insights that are built over a lifetime in any discipline.

And I know that we often want insta-results!

Reminds me of another story:

A grad school faculty member of mine whose specialty is Buddhist studies went to see the Dalai Llama here in the US several years ago. The Dalai Llama spoke for a while, seated cross legged on a cushion on the stage, and then it was announced that he would take questions from the audience.

These had been written down on pieces of paper. He read and answered a couple and then looked at the next one. He read it, and then laid his head down on his knees, his shoulders shaking. The audience froze -- was he laughing or crying? Turns out he was crying.

The question:

"What's the fastest way to get to enlightenment?"

I've always wondered what it felt like to be the person who reduced the Dalai Llama to tears!

One of the things that this kind of soul work is pushing back against is the linear, concrete, productive obsessed move of much of Western culture. But -- it's a challenge, because even as we're hungering for the deeper stuff, we're also really conditioned to want concrete, prescriptive instructions about how to get there. And that's not how we find it!

So, yeah, I would guess it's a huge challenge for Hempfling or any of the clinicians doing rich, subtle work with horses -- how can you offer enough so that people can walk away feeling like they're taking something with them (and are enticed to come in the first place), balanced against saying "it takes years to get where I am"? And work through the tugs that come with this, as it can put you in a guru position really quickly, if your message is compelling, even if you don't want to be there.

In my perceptions and critiques of any clinician, I try to keep my awareness of that tension cooking in the back of my head. As someone who is both a content provider/producer of events and who also does marketing, I know that it's a delicate balance all the time, and it's really easy to lose your footing.

And, of course, none of us is perfect. (Well, except for Circe. But she's unique.)



(Circe is my 3.5 year old Haflinger filly, for those of you who don't know what the heck I'm talking about!)

Best,
Leigh

_________________
"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com

I just want to add that I don't think most well known clinicians understand what it is that sets them apart from the lesser knowns (unless it is heavy promotion - then it's sometimes a matter of good fortune and knowing the right people isn't it??)

Just to add to that, Klaus is very in touch with his primal side. He is very lucky to live on a beautiful Island where he produces all his own food. His whole life is spent moving with the natural tides. He was saying that he always knows which sheep to kill, as he sees it in his head, so he says, 'the liitle sheep with the brown mark on his shoulder is ready to die for us today', so he goes out with his pistol, puts food down for his sheep, and as expected, the sheep with the brown mark on his shoulder comes running to him and leaps around by his side, so he puts food down, and he shoots it as he eats. I don't know how much of this is true, sounds astounding, but, what I do know is living like this, in touch with the natural world, moving with the seasons, eating what the seasons has to offer, seeing animals born, then killing them for your food does make one very connected. I gave this life up 2yrs ago, and I do feel very disconnected right now. The majority of us are living lives that involve money worries to a greater or lesser degree, we all have jobs that can produce there own stresses, we all have families which can pretty much do the same!! So, it's not surprising that by the time we get to our horses, we are carrying all sorts of crap.

I noticed that when Klaus approaches the horse, he is bringing his energy down, he's breathing correctly, he's relaxing his shoulders noticing if there's any tension there,he's grounding himself. Is it this connection and groundedness that the horses are attracted to?

Klaus leads a very lucky life, he's very strict with what he eats and drinks, he meditates dances and chants and drums, he lives with nature, this is just not possible for alot of us, infact for me it's my horses that give me a small piece of this every day.

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We never stop learning

Thank you so much!

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"Do you give the horse his strength?"
~Job 39:19a

www.cambriahorsemanship.com