The Art of Natural Dressage

Dreamer, who is a TB boarding at my place, has a bad habit of TRYING to nip or bite. So far, he hasn't bitten me because we can always see him coming. So I will start a new section which will be about nipping and biting and what everyone is doing (or trying) to solve this issue.

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Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!

Here are some threads and posts from people dealing with similar problems.

Marina has shared lots of experiences with Bear. I have linked to one specific diary post, but there are more. Just search for "biting" in her diary with Ctrl+F.

I had a biting problem this spring with Summy and we solved it by giving him a toy to chew (there is an update on the next diary page as well). In other cases my main strategies are to freeze and only continue our interaction when the horse is more polite, or if this doesn't stop it I just say a slightly annoyed no (or something similar) and carefully move the muzzle away with my hand. But that's for Pia and Titum who only bite very seldom.

Then there are fragments of the diary of Annie and Bryn. Annie had a colt who was nipping a lot and asked for help, but later deleted all her posts in this forum when NHE started their crusade against AND. However, there still are two relevant replies by Karen and Bianca.

Here is a post from Glen where she describes the two strategies she used with Freckles and Laska.

Karen on asking for something constructive. Basically that's what Brenda described in this thread about differential reinforcement.

Of course one option is rewarding a lot for backing up and moving out of your space. This works well especially with horses who are mouthy because they want your attention and treats - in that way, you show them that they can get what they want in more prosocial ways. When a horse bites while taking the treat, I keep my hand closed and only open it once I feel a soft touch from his muzzle and no teeth, but I guess that's a different situation from what you want to deal with in Dreamer's case.

And then in my opinion one of the most important things is that the human behaves in a careful and respectful way towards the horse as well, but in your case I am sure that you do this already.

Thank you so much Romy for all the info. This is great.

Dreamer's problem is not nipping when giving treats. It's when we turn our back to him. For example, when we are standing in front of him and walking to his side, doesn't matter which one. As soon as our back is turned, you can see him getting ready to bite. He's never bitten me before because I see him coming. I'm not even sure he will end up biting. But he does the gesture with alot of energy.
So far I've taught him to look in the other direction when I'm cleaning his feet. That works. He won't try to bite anymore when I'm cleaning because he knows he gets a treat if he looks the other way. But... when I'm standing beside him and decide to leave his side (example to leave the shelter or go see Magik), there goes his teeth towards the back of my leg.

What I will try for one week is:
1) like Glenn, I will pretend to cry hysterically, but I won't leave his side. When he turns away, I will click and treat and be happy and see what happens.

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Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!

Monday, Oct 8th 2012:
This afternoon, I went to see the horses. They were in their shelter resting. So I decided to start cleaning up. Dreamer started nipping at Magik so I stopped him by asking him to back up. Then he took my fork and started biting on the end of the handle. He was biting pretty hard. So I let him and just stood there looking at him. He was biting and trying to lift the plastic fork with his teeth for about 5 minutes. During this time, I was kissing his nose and just stroking his nose and face. When he stopped biting the fork, he tried to nip on my jacket. I started crying (pretending). He didn't react at all!!
But... that's when I decided I wouldn't budge either. I just stared at him with mean eyes (if I were a horse, my ears would be flat down . That's when he turned away. So I gave him back the fork handle and he started biting like crazy.

1) he may have a teeth problem. Even though the owner said he had his teeth floated just before arriving at my place (in May), there might be something more serious, or;
2) he needs something in his mouth at all times. He is a very playful horse. He has never really bitten me hard (nor Magik for that matter - he has no teeth marks at all on his body). So maybe he just needs to let the energy out, like a hyper active dog, I know I have a chocolate lab and if he doesn't run everyday, he just goes nuts.
3) he's trying to dominate us. If that is the case, if I don't back off, maybe he'll just stop when he realizes his biting me (or trying) doesn't impress me.
Solutions:
1)So, I'll ask the owner to have his teeth checked again.
2) I'll have more toys in the shelter for him to play with.
3) I won't move if he tries to nip and I'll continue to ask him to look away when I'm cleaning his feet.
I should have good results within one month

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Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!

Good to read that you are going to try something else than the crying thing. Given that I don't have anything to contribute in terms of dominance explanations and you have decided to try using toys anyway, I'd suggest to do this in a more specific way than just putting them in the pasture.

I say this because with Summy it is like that: He bites into people's jackets, ropes, and if you want your pullover destroyed, all you have to do is leave it in the pasture for five minutes. However, I have tried giving him his own pullovers and gloves and other things so that he can chew them as much as he wants to. But he doesn't. I have never seen him chew something when he is on his own, only when the thing is something that moves (like a rope or something that hangs down from a jacket) or something that a human has just left there a short time ago.

So at least for Summy it does not help to put toys out for him. What solved the problem completely for us was giving him a toy to chew right when he was trying to bite, every time. By the way, I have borrowed this idea from Bianca who solved Unico's biting problems that way when he was a foal. I'd also suggest trying something softer than a fork, maybe a brush or one of those knotted rope retrieving toys for dogs. But that's just based on my experience with Summy who prefers to chew soft things and never takes a hard thing into his mouth at all. It might be different for Dreamer.

Bear also bites me when I try walking away from him. Bear does it because he doesn't want me to leave/run off (he would love it if I just gave him carrots for standing still). He still does this so I'm not sure if I can offer any suggestions...

I have noticed recently that when he is interested and learning something new and he is happy he bites much less. So I think that for him to stop doing it so much I have to stop trying to get him to do things he doesn't want. Sounds simple but it is easy go too far with him because he always comes over and wants to do something. He does walk away now but unlike poppy who just loses interest, he walks off and stands and waits a couple of seconds - but if I wait or call he comes back. It is so easy for me to fall in the trap of continuing on. So most of it probably stems from frustration/grumpiness and that I need to pay more attention to when he doesn't want to do things.

My way of dealing with it has changed about a million times and currently depends on the situation (and will probably change again :P). Most of the time I manage it by either blocking/ignoring or by asking him to be polite. However these things don't really stop him in the future.

Tuesday, Oct 9th:
This morning I noticed a few things: Magik is pretty much nervous around Dreamer. He often nips at Magik but doesn't really bite him since Magik has no marks on him. But everytime Dreamer moves towards him, Magik will take off. So I'm assuming Dreamer continually "harasses" Magik.

The problem is that I see the horses 3 times a day: 1 hour in the morning, 1 hour around 5pm and 1 hour around 7pm. Magik spends the rest of the time defending himself from Dreamer.

I read in Carolyn Resnick's book that a horse that does not behave correctly in a herd of horses, the leader will separate the horse with the unwanted behavior from the rest of the pack. I'm thinking that this weekend, if the weather is ok, I will stay with the horses in the paddock until Dreamer misbehaves. When he does, I will drive Dreamer back to the shelter and I will stay with Magik in the paddock. They still can see each other but Dreamer won't be able to get close to us. Then Magik and I will share our moment together and at the same time, I will check Dreamer's behavior.

Until then, I will continue to work with Dreamer every morning, asking him to turn his head away from me when I'm cleaning his feet. When he tries to nip, I stand right beside him without moving and wait until he moves his head away. When he does, then I click and move away and then treat. Today, when I did this, everytime, I tried to move away, he would try again to nip, again I would stand real close to him. At one point, I was nearly underneath him. Funny I trust him not to hurt me, even though he's so annoying sometimes.

Anyways, I won't give up. I'm sure one day, he will forget he ever had this bad habit (I hope )

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Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!

Sometimes I find that over analyzing my horses unwanted behaviors, such as biting, keeps me from the simple task of behavior management.

I believe that when this happens I have likely not guessed correctly as to cause, or even if correctly not chosen a tactic of technique and goal that is appropriate to replace the behavior. Very often just simply clicker training, and use of the most disciplined methods on my part does the trick.

I worry when I see folks working on herd social behavior approaches as if I establish myself as anything other than a good HUMAN companion and human leader I could find myself in the position of being treated like a horse.

I'm not a thousand pounds of bone, muscle, huge teeth, and an ability to kick with deadly force.

A more strategic approach is what I personally prefer.

Bonnie took up grabbing and mouthing, mugging, for a time. I few sessions of treat delivery, similar to what Romy mentioned, closed hand (I turn my hand palm down back of hand up) and wait for a soft touch of lips, or a slight distancing away from the hand seems to help my Bonnie and other horses I've worked with.

Dakota, who has come back into my life, another story another thread I'll try to get to later, is an alligator when taking treats but softens quickly with the above routine.

There is one more tactic that seems to strongly engage the horses mind, and I've used with all three horses I am in contact with and with other horses of students. I start delivering the treat between close obstacles, such as around the bar in the stall front wall. I have used feeding between my fingers to good effect the same way.

Something about having to tease the treat out engages the mind. Once that happens most horses I deal with seem to generalize that calmer more thoughtful behavior in other things.

As for the biting at clothing or the person when one leaves the horse, this is very common in clicker (operant conditioning with +R) trained horses. I brought it to the attention of Peggy Hogan, Clicker Training Horses (The Best Whisper is A Click), in a pm and she had a suggestion that worked fantastically the first time and every time thereafter.

She first does a few "departures," from the training site by going to a bucket she's put out for the purpose and jackpotting a handful of treats.

Next time out she introduces arms across the chest, X'd or just folded protective, as a cue. I use the American baseball umpire's "Safe," gesture, the forarms just below waist high crossed and uncrossed quickly and say, "all done."

Of course each of us will add our own cue, once the horse is clear that the jackpot bucket (or any surface that will hold the treats correctly) means the session is over.

Bonnie had been using body blocks (not being a nipper) stop me leaving and this cured that problem in short order. Hands cue, and jackpot.



Just some thoughts.

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I understand your point of view Donald. This is the way I see it. I know Dreamer knows I'm not a horse. But he treats me like he treats Magik. He doesn't respect Magik's space nor mine. Magik will run away from him and Dreamer will take over his food (or his space).

I am working on the nipping (oddly he doesn't nip for treats, he is polite in that sense). However, when I'm cleaning his feet and I need to turn my back to him, that's when he'll turn his head towards the back of my leg and TRY to nip.

So far what I've taught him is when he moves his head away from me, I click and treat. So after a week or so, that works. I stand in front of him, his head will go either left or right. I click and treat. Then I move towards the side. As soon as I turn my back, if I see his head coming towards me, I will immediately turn towards him and just stand there with no emotions whatsoever. When he turns away, I will go back towards his leg. If he doesn't turn to me, I click and treat.
It seems to be improving so I'll continue this method for awhile.

The owner showed up today and nearly erased everything I had done for her horse. She comes in screaming (overly excited) for joy. Her horse got all excited and started running around in the shelter. I had to tell her to calm down and go outside if she wanted to play with her horse. The shelter needs to be a calm place, for security reasons. Dreamer stopped listening to us and invaded our space. She thought it was funny!!!

But she didn't stay long. So that's good.
All in all, I'm happy with the training I've been doing with Dreamer.

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Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!

Too bad. That way she probably reinforced the nipping at some point in their history. Behaviour is very hard to extinguish when it's on a variable reinforcement schedule like that :(

But I like your approach very much! I'm sure you're on the right track!

I was wondering, can you gradually turn away from him and reinforce every single step while he still keeps his head way from you? I was just thinking that if he is biting to get attention, then turning towards him as soon as you see him turning to you, might just reinforce his former behaviour. Just a thought...

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Volker

The horse owes us nothing.

good point Volker, I never really thought about that. But I don't think he wants attention. On the contrary, I thought he wanted to be left alone. He gave me the impression that he was a bully (he bullies Magik, my dog, and us humans). But he is changing so much. As soon as he tries to nip at Magik, I interfere and don't permit him. He turns the other side. Same thing with my dog. But I have never touched him. I make a loud sound and say "BAD".

Lately, he has been so cooperative. I will stand in front of him and he may try to nip once or twice. But I've noticed that if I don't touch him immediately when entering the shelter, he will respect my space more. So I feed them their hay without touching Dreamer (but I do say hello) and I continue with my chores. If he approaches me, I will let him smell my hand, then remove it and turn away. He doesn't try to nip me anymore in this situation. The only time he does try is when I've been around him for a few minutes (when cleaning his feet) and he seems to be either bored or wants to be left alone. But he doesn't leave (even though he's at liberty). So I'll continue to see what could trigger this nipping.

He has improved so much. So I'm happy with the results.

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Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!

At present we have this biting-/nipping-problem also so that I want to rekindle this thread again.



I have read this postings; thank you Romy for the link.

Wish I could delete this annoying behaviour, but how? In the beginning of our training-lesson he was high motivated and attentive. The biting/nipping cames only later, in the end of our "work".

Pan shows that only if I stand in front of him or beside him. He does it constantly and so pushy, that I have hardly any time for a right reaction. In this case I strive to employ him immediately with motions back- or sideways or something like that. If it not works (what often happened) than I cry loud "No!" or "Stop that!" (and sometimes I turned away if he goes too far). Then I wait that he stops his behaviour. If he finally turns towards me then he gets his reward. That's how it goes: "Ooohhh, goood boooy!", "You're great!", "Suuuuper!" ("Feeeiiin!" and "Toollllll!" in german.) He loves his carrot-sticks! Mjammm...

I have no idea why he does that... Maybe anyone here in these forum?


Perhaps is it useful to consult a dentist? He is nearly 5 years old. The last visit to the dentist was probably a long time ago. We had bought Pan in Juni 2012 and since this date no dentist has seen his teeth...

Thank you for helping me!

Not sure about the dentist. Of course it won’t do any harm, but with Pan I got the feeling that when he was biting, this had to do with frustration or impatience. But I cannot say this for sure, because the only time when he was actively biting me (instead of just taking the treats uncarefully) was that day when we worked outside in the round pen and he was so nervous.

I’d suggest we try Summy’s toy method first, because I guess this is the easiest way and perhaps it already helps. In general, for me it still works better to clearly show a horse how I feel about the biting (I-message) instead of scolding (you-message), or turning away in that neutral way (no clear message at all). But then of course we need something that works for you and not for me, so if you want, we can try and directly compare all versions next time and then you simply stick with the one that you like best.

(...and if after that you still opt for the turning away, I'll try to show you how you can do this in a way that sets a signal and does not look as if you just suddenly had the idea to go doing something else, with this decision having nothing to do with Pan )

First of all - rest assured that you are certainly not alone with this issue . That's the most common road block that we run into when we start to introduce food rewards. How long do you use food rewards? And have you changed anything in how you give them to Pan lately? Can you pinpoint the day when it started to get worse?

Personally, it always helps me when I try to analyse a behaviour most thoroughly. What am I doing? What is the horse doing? What precedes the behaviour? What follows immediately afterwards?

Did you mean when he turns away from you, or really towards you? If so, I would suggest to reward him only for turning away from you. Otherwise you would basically teach him to mug you .
You can also try to ask a step backwards before every treat. Or when you stand beside him, wait until he has turned his head away from you, before you reward. You can also give the reward only at the end of a stretched arm, thus mugging won't help him, as the treat is far away from your body.

If the biting is so unpleasant that you feel like you want to move away from him with every nip, it may be reinforcing for him to see you move from him. That may make the behaviour stronger. You could practise simply the giving of treats over a barrier like a fence, so that he has no way of crowding you, but you can give him rewards if he waits patiently and turns his head away from you.

Do you use a clicker, or a marker word to mark the behaviour before you give a treat? Not that it is necessary for reward based training (as Romy proves excellently), but it gives the food delivery process more structure. Thus the horse knows better when he can expect a treat and when not.

Generally though, these things take time to sink in - some horses (like our Lily for example) get very excited by the mere possibility of a food reward that they may take longer to become calm with this type of training .
With Romy there to help you out, I'm sure you'll figure out a way to improve Pan's food manners soon .

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Volker

The horse owes us nothing.

Or to destroy them altogether, with me never asking a horse to look away from the treat.

No, just kidding, the treat taking is rather easy with Pan actually - he is so much like Summy, so the Summy method of keeping your hand closed until he is careful with his muzzle works nicely (or for me it does, not sure about you, Lena?). The bigger problem seems to be biting the human not while taking a treat but in other situations, for example when just standing next to him or walking with him.

I do hope, however, that we can get that solved by changing something in Lena's behaviour. The reason why I think so is that Summy also bites her, and even Titum has tried it (although for him it's not necessarily person specific). I cannot quite put my finger on what exactly it is, or I have a guess about it but cannot put it into words yet. But in any case, I believe that it will be very interesting to work on it and also teach us something that goes beyond the biting, something that has to do with the human's expression. But now I'll shut up until I have found out whether I am on the right track with that guess.