The Art of Natural Dressage

Pushing the hip forwards encourages the horse to step around with the front end, so yes the horse will turn, and because the rider's shoulders are turning the horse will also be bending some, but the horse is probably not following his front feet with his hind feet.

For a rider just learning this is fine because we just want to know they can bend and steer- we aren't so picky! But if you want to learn advanced lateral work, you need to learn to isolate your hip from your shoulder movement.

Parelli used to teach to turn your eyes, belly button, hips. I think they still do, but they also finally figured out to keep your hips in line with the horse's now that they take lessons with Walter Zettl and Phillipe Karl.

Josepha, now that I think about it more, maybe when you ask riders to twist more by pointing with their belly button, or turning their hip in, what is really happening to make the difference is their weight follows and comes to the inside- this makes a HUGE difference and is also something I teach. I can see where if the rider is turning a little their weight can still be wrong, but if you get them to turn a LOT and even bring the outside hip foraward, that would shift the weight in.

I can understand Karen's post that telling riders somthing may work wether or not it is scientifically sound, but as an instructor I want to know EXACTLY what is going on. I don't want to give conflicting information. How can I be a great instructor if I can not explain the paradoxes? I somtimes tell riders to do things that are not 'correct' because it is the way to help them the most at the given moment, but I let them know right then and there that this will change and we are only doing it to get you through this point. And actually I am doing that less and less as I find new ways of teaching things so we can do it closer and closer to 'correct' (I hate that word by the way!) the first time.

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Learning to put the relationship first.

In my experience, and thus is also how I explain it, the horse is about keeping his balance. And the first thing you as a rider has to do, is allowing the horse to re-find his balance.
Now, as a lot of horse find their balance as soon as the rider learns the follow up seat and stay clear from the head (for instance because they have the cordeo only), horses find a lot of their horizontal balance back.
Now, when you as a rider make sure you keep your body vertical and turn your own body, The horse’s balanced is lost a bit. So for him to re-find it again, he makes a turn, stepping his hind leg more under. What I see is correct turns
(as far as is possible for a horse at that stage for most horses are very croucked from the forced rein work and turns on the inside rein.



I know absolutely nothing about Parelli. Strangely though, in an other subject we had some time ago, it was told Parelli only told you to turn your eyes and belly button and people saying that did not work, until I said, you should turn your hips and let you eyes and shoulders follow… But maybe I do not remember it correctly.

I never studied Phillipe Karl nor Walter Zettl.



And maybe I do explain a lot more about how or why. Maybe that is why a lot of people find what they need to get going again with their horse, because they finally know what to do and why and even more so, what not…
And maybe this is only a very short excerpt from my 5 step plan and not everything I teach…



Well, we had discussions before about what is scientifically sound, so I best not go there.



Rest assured that I only teach things which work then and there and which I can explain logically a long the horse’s psych and biomechanics.




Well, that is exactly what I do not want to do.
You know, the whole point of my 5 step plan is to give everyone an easy and simple home made way to Academic Riding.
The whole basis of that is that this works beautifully because you always follow your horse, the core of AND remember? The whole I-don’t-want-to-trot discussion?
Even the best rider in the world will make mistakes with training if he does not listen to his horse.
My training system is not for the best riders in the world but for people like me and Kirsty and Karen who want to keep their horse healthy, proud, happy and have fun together.
I keep it very simple and logical and explain the biomechanics and instinct rules behind it.
In the afternoon when every one starts riding, it always works to everyone’s satisfaction and maybe mostly the horse’s for he finally may show how it’s done.

Going into all training systems and going very technical, that is what I used to do, the way you do now, that is what most of my modern dressage instructors did and I only got confused and lost confidence.

After taking lessons and clinics from people such as David De Wispelaere, Bent Branderup and a pupil of him, Arthur Kottas, Chris Irwin etc. I saw how simple it actually was.
And now that I mention it, they taught me the way to turn and it came up the same way in my centered riding inctructor’s course.

The lateral work starts from there, from the circle, the moment before the horse moves his inside hind leg forward, ones he steps side ways, you yourself step side ways, then your hips indeed are as was shown in your drawing.

But what I meant to say, after that, and studying De Pluvinel and La Gueriniere all over again, it became clear to me how simple this was.

The greatest master though where Don Jamie and Owen and some of my students horses, for reacting natural to me. So I could study: when Josepha does this, horse does that.
And that is the very core of my riding system to be precise.

Now, when in my lesson I do give a lot of theory, but simple and logical but mostly the 'why' behind what we do.
Most of all, I let the pupil experiment with his feel. When I do this, the horse does that.
And when the horse does not do what I thought he would do… then what am I doing? Not what I thought I was.

So in all fairness, the horse is the teacher, I am only his translator


As said, people who attended a clinic asked me to put the 5 steps plan here because it worked so well.
I did not do that before because I was afraid the message would not come across without a certain back ground knowledge, or more information and the practical lessons to accompy that.
Well, seems that my fear was correct.

Reading that Kirsty is confused… that was exactly what I did not want to happen, for there is enough confusing information out there about how one should train a horse.
So, if one is confused, fear not, just follow your horse, for horses are never confused, they know all about horse training, trust me

Havin said that, I'll continue with what I teach and what works to my experience and satisfaction. And I could have finished the rest of the plan... but now time is up, alas.
I quite sheerfully agree to dissagree with you And you are of course allowed to disagree with me
It is up to everyone here to use what works for him or her. That is what this forum is about, not what is right and wrong, but what works, and always putting the horse first.

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www.equusuniversalis.com

That's me!!!! I just wanna have fun!

On my very first ride on Tam, I of course did it totally different than I had ever done before, and I had no one then to follow....at that time we hadn't quite got to discussing the very basics of seat and turning here on the forum. Honestly, I didn't think to ask, either! But as Josepha says, the horse is the teacher, and for his young age, Tam proved to be very, very patient in showing me that I was doing it all wrong. It was a beautiful ride for me, but Tam and I were not on the same page at all on where we were going in the arena. It was a good thing I had no reins because I would have tried to override his natural reactions. I'm sure this all came about because the universe was telling me that it was time I experienced those natural reactions!

So I came back here to report, and I got some wonderful assistance on how to "go with the flow" and figure out what Tam responded to naturally, without training. Along came the waltz! And the way that it was described (Sue and Donald and others helped me then!) it made sense. The resulting feel was the same feel as Josepha's way of describing the movement that causes a horse to turn naturally. As I said before...there isn't a single explanation that will work for everyone, but if everyone would slow down and listen to their horse, they have the key in front of them. And of course they should also be a part of this forum, because they would then have even more diverse and imaginative ways to understand what is natural for the horse. So perhaps all instructors should key first on teaching riders how to listen to the animal they sit on?

Do I need scientifically correct technicalities as long as I have the ability to listen to my horse? Slowing down and listening really seems to be the ultimate truth, doesn't it?

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

YES!! That is what I found with Centered Riding lessons, that it finally explained to me step by step, how, why, and what I needed to do, and THEN I could get the 'feel' that other instructors were trying to show to me!

And I think, if I have this correct, turning the pelvis (and all the body and weight changes that go with that!) really helps with turns cuz it mirrors what the horse needs to do???? Anyway, I am a beginner and it certainly helped me, and it worked great on traditionally trained Jack and lil' green Lucy too!

And Josepha, thanks for this topic! Even tho I haven't been posting, I have been reading and learning!

Brenda

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http://www.youtube.com/user/Lucy04574
http://www.youtube.com/user/Jack04574

I was no where implying that your first post was an end all to your teaching Josepha- I know better! I know you are an incredible stewart and translator of the horse and the horse world is better for having you in it.



I don't think that is so. Please go on Josepha!!! I apologize if I offered to any one's confusion! But if anyone reads the whole thread I think they will realize that turning to the inside is a good thing regardless of wether or not the hips turn as well, and they are frre to experiment to see what workd best for them and their horse. If all riders across the world turned their hips in and thier horses were happy that is most certainly fine by me!! I believe that if they later want to do advanced lateral work that they will have to adjust their hip movement, but if that is never one of their goals, and it makes turning more simplistic and easier accomplished, then by all means!!! Twist however works!!!



Hmmm, sounds exactly like what I do.



These generalizations are what get us both into trouble. This implies that I am so detail oriented that I loose the forrest for the trees, and that my students live in a state of confusion. I myself tend to throw out sentences like this without thinking enough about how they come across, and I know you ment no harm by it. Yes, I too have seen many instructors (specifically dressage instructors) who confuse their students with massive lists of aids that are to be used at certain times in certain doses, and the riders, lacking feel and erratically pushing buttons at their instructor's demands, aid the horse to death, not knowing what response they are even hoping for, and the horses, rightfully so, are aggrivated and either voice their opinion (and get their mouth strapped shut for it!) or just shut down. I assure you this is NOT what I do. Josepha, I think our teaching is very very similar, and if all we ever disagree on is which way the outside hip goes during a circle, than I would say we are doing fine!!!

That said, I'm lookig forward to the rest of your five steps, AND I would love to know your thoughts on weight aids

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Learning to put the relationship first.

Thanks to all of you for this conversation!

It's been very helpful to me -- and it's translated in my brain somewhat simply (yes, I know, a rare occurrence from she-who-can-complicate-anything! ) as thinking about connecting the movement of my hips to the horse's pelvis rather than simply head/shoulders... that's very helpful to me in my constant struggle to get myself out of my head/shoulder attention addiction and into the whole body/to the engine in the hind.

I actually see both what Josepha and Danee have described as being important in the circle -- as the horse moves through the circle, we are both initiating and then following the movement, if that makes sense...??? This is leading/following, asking/receiving that makes sense as an AND construct to me...we're dancing here, rather than just stacking a bunch of "steps" together -- this is how you really dance with human partners, too -- it becomes a fluid, instinctive balance w/out a whole lot of "head thinking" (like the counting off of steps beginners do when learning to waltz, for example...they're doing the movement, basically, but it isn't dancing yet...)

Like Brenda, turns started making sense when I started really thinking about how I was initiating the movement rather than seeing it as a series of aids that felt abstracted to me -- it's finally coming into my body as well as my mind...

I, too, have suffered through variations on this:


Oh, boy, I know that feeling! So -- "Where is the horse's pelvis? Where are his ribs? How is your pelvis talking to those? How is your focus changing his focus, and what happens to both your bodies?" makes so much more intuitive sense to me than the massive "now put your leg back, now switch your weight to the inside...no! the outside!, now put your weight into your inside stirrup" and so on micro-tasks I've tried to field until I feel like I'm doing the hokey pokey without a CLUE as to why in the moment!!!


(Poor Stardust is so long suffering...)

Thanks, all!

Leigh

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"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com

I have to say that I did something because of Josepha's teaching.

I wasn't sure if I was feeling Freckle's hips or his shoulders? So I put my hands behind my saddle on his loins? And I closed my eyes. And we just walked. And I clicked for a trot? And he did this amazing school canter ... which technically he's not supposed to be able to do yet.

So I think there is a lot in this that I'm trying to catch hold of. I remember as a kid, I "just rode" and I did a lot better then, than now when I find myself conciously "trying to ride"

This is something that fascinates me. I could do anything on those horses, and not all of them were easy animals. Some of them were classed as "dangerous" to ride. Only two of them I never managed to ride decently - Pepper used to rear while being mounted and his owner had encouraged that, and Sunshine only went backwards for anyone who wasn't her owner. I struggle to do anything now with most horses I mount. The problem therefore must lie in me.

The difference? I "knew" less then ...yeah

I think that's a proper kick in the pants! AND it's just what I need to work through!

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Glen Grobler

Words that soak into your ears are whispered...not yelled. Anon

What a great thread. I am only sporadically in lessons. Many books are wonderful, but some times *a whole book* can get a little overwhelming when one is trying to progress on one's own. These little bites to chew over and play with are inspiring.

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Looking for the beauty in the truth and the truth in the beauty.

I very much enjoyed reading about how you teach people. I would love to hear the rest of your article. Also, I can't wait for your book to come out (in English, of course ). Thanks for posting such great info.

Ivy

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http://www.ivyshorses.com
Blog: http://www.EquestrianHarmony.wordpress.com

Hmm, interesting discussion on pelvis rotations!

I've struggled with this for a long time as well, as I read a lot of conflicting things about it. Some teachers taught me to turn with my belly-button pointing into the direction in which you want to go. Then I read Hempflings book that explains that you should turn the outside of the pelvis forwards, so that both shoulders and hips point into the direction. I tried that as well, but it was somewhat difficult for me to combine with the fact that the outside leg should lie further back than the inside in classical dressage. It worked, but I still needed the reins to steer the horse through the volte and it didn't feel like I was really steering with my seat.

For me the breakthrough was when I had read Enlightened Equitation by Heather Moffet, in which she explains that on a circle you can also move the inner half of the pelvis forwards so that it stays parallel to the horses pelvis on the volte. Not much later, when I had one of my weekly riding lessons at the Lusitano stud, I was riding on just a sheepskin and decided to try to turn a small volte my letting the reins hang down and just moving the inside half of my hip forwards. I almost shot off the horsee on the other side because she turned so quickly!

So for me personally, keeping the pelvis parallel to the pelvis of the horse (moving the inside half of the pelvis like Danee forwards) seems to work very well.
However, I don't believe all the things riding teachers connect to that, like that if you move the outside of your hip forwards the horse will only turn with his shoulder as you need the outside leg placed back in order to keep the ribcage bent etc. I've also been told that you need a whip to train the piaffe as it enables you to activate the hindlegs, and that you need reins to let the horse stay in ramener!
Just because one way works, doesn't make the other way bad. The original haute ecole trainers used a very different seat and different leg cues than we dressage riders to today and that didn't seem to keep them from reaching collection either.

For me, riding in practice exists of doing something and keep doing the things that work. People like me will then build all kinds of wonderful theories with lots of biomechanics in it - but it's really just a theory. Other people see that their theory works, and then will start building all kinds of theories of how that means that all the other ways of doing it won't work. Just the fact that pushing the inside of the hip forward works, simply doesn't mean that pushing the outside of the hip forward doesn't work either!

I think it's very good for riding teachers not to overload their pupils with all the thousand possibilities all at once though! I think it's very wise that people like Josepha and Danee pick a way that works for them and use that as basis in their lessons. That way they can talk about something they have experienced themself and can tell all the nuances. And if the trainer is so flexible that when it doesn't work 100% with a specific combination, they know how to adapt that theory to match the needs of that specific pair exactly (maybe because the horse responds differently, maybe because the rider moves her body differently), then I guess as a pupil you've struck gold!

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New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

This has been fascinating to read. I went through the same confusion about hips alignment and leg positions as so many here. I do think I'm getting a grasp of the whole thing slowly, but only in theory . There are so many factors to consider. One of the most common faults for beginning (and sometimes not so beginning) riders is to collapse one hip when they are attempting to put more weight on one seatbone than the other. This will reach the opposite effect of what's desired. It is also common to have the saddle sit slightly off balance, one stirrup a little longer than the other, the rider having uneven hips or shoulders, the horse having uneven hips or shoulders, the saddle having uneven bars, the saddle pad being worn down unevenly, the horse avoiding one side of the arena, the ground the horse is moving on is uneven etc. A good instructor can of course see and gradually eliminate all these problems. But most of us don't have someone watching all the time and we don't watch ourselves on video after every ride. Because of all these complicating factors I really like Josepha's approach best to turn the horse with use of eyes and belly button, even if it means that the outside leg comes forward quite a bit in very tight turns, effectively moving the outside shoulder over. This is the simplest way to turn the horse without the horse dropping the inside shoulder, either because we pulled on the inside rein, or because we collapsed the inside hip, or dropped our inside shoulder. When our horse will respond consistently to these weight and leg aids and does not lean into the turn we can then change our cuing system over time (add verbal cues, cordeo cues, additional leg cues) to allow for isolation of movement for forehand and haunches which is necessary for advanced lateral work. I have learned a lot from watching the first two videos (up to first level) by Walter Zettl, and remember him saying that the circle should be very large at first (20m?), maybe more, so that very little bend is initially required of the horse. Once the horse is physically capable of bending it's body while moving forward as in a half pass on the ground it can be taught a single cue for bending his body along it's entire length, or separate cues for shoulder-in and haunches-in that can be used from the ground or the saddle.
I think horses might be able to learn advanced work within a year, riders are a different story. I'm lucky if I can get about 100 hours of riding time in per year and after each winter break I need about 20 of those just to get where I was the fall before that, even with ongoing stretching and strengthening in the winter. If I can truly be in balance on my horse most of the time, right to left and front to back I will be happy and I think my horse will be, too.
There is one author I want to highly recommend on the issue of balance and body alignment. The books by Pete Egoscue, one called "The Egoscue Method of Health Through Motion", the other "Pain Free, A revolutionary method for stopping chronic pain". Both books are extremely helpful in adressing and alleviating the cause of alignment problems and back pain in people and even though they are not written for equestrians they work very well.
Too many issues covered all in one post, sorry, I hope it didn't cause more confusion.

Gauging by how Cisco continues to improve, and my total lack of education in proper riding, I get the feeling there is a lot more "wiggle room" in riding than some believe.

Now if you are going in front of a judge and you need to look the same or better than the other 16 riders, then I suppose it's a different story...

But to sit naturally (which is an individual thing for each person) should be the best thing to feel comfortable and balanced in order to allow the horse to move as freely as possible.

I fiddle a lot with my seat, my cues, my balance...and when Cisco doesn't shake his head at me, I know I'm on the right track.

Ok, really I'm a bit jealous of anyone who really has had the experience of true classical training...but I'm comfortable knowing I can get close enough (and enjoying trying to figure it out!).

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

hi there, i dont know if this is what you are saying, but with my students, i used to say that they could imagine they little arrows on their hips. they were to gently try to point the arrow in the direction they wanted to go.

i found that if i asked them to turn their shoulders, their hips actually screwed the other way, and the horse became confused. i had them practice this on the ground. if you do it yourself you will see that turning the shoulders makes us almost pull the hips the opposite direction.

i do alot of lateral work on and have found that it does not interfere with what i am doing. i find that the pressure of the seatbones and the direction of the hips alters for the halfpass, shoulder in, etc etc. but everyone uses a different recipe, as long as there is a cake at the end, ( and the cake was rewarding for the horse.......ahahahaha, this just keeps sounding stupider!!

i hope what i have said makes sense.

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just keep swimming, quote from nemo!:)
love jessy

And I'm so jealous of all of you who get to hang out with and ride several different horses, I can only imagine how much fun it would be to compare the different feel and temperament of each. But I feel so blessed that I have one, especially such a sweet one.

Karen,

I think you might be right!

It seems to me that where once I talked about independent seat and hands now I realize that it is correctly called independent balance. The feeling that no matter what the horse does you will land on your feet if he suddenly disappeared out from under you. I think that leaves more 'wiggle room' in riding because of our different builds. The line from ear to ankle might still be right but inbetween you have body sections that disrupt gravity shall we say We know best when we are in balance after some of our own wet saddle blanket time!

Cisco does tell you when you are balanced - right??? Oooooh they are communicative teachers aren't they -----