The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:26 pm 
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horsefever wrote:


...


I've noticed that Corado is using his front legs more and more. Since I'm not as scared of him like before I can tell him "no" firmly when I don't want a certain action, and I start over what I was doing to make sure I don't get it (for example when I'm in front of him and he does leg up). What I've also noticed is that alot of times he paws with agression or maybe that's not the good word, with enthusiasm. With leg up, I now can control his energy when he puts his foot down. by holding the leg with my dressage stick he keeps it up until I remove it. Then he puts his put down softly.


Ooooo...waaaay cool. Got to learn to do that.

horsefever wrote:
Oh yeah, the farrier told me that Corado was mean to him once,


You are joking or the farriers was, right? I mean did the farrier really say the horse was mean to him?

Horses kick for a number of reasons. Only one of which is to be mean in the establishment of dominance (even then it's instinctual).

The other reasons that I can think of related to either being hurt or being afraid of being hurt. Not to criticize your farrier, but when one is tired, and after a lot of trimming and shoeing in day they would be, it's possible the farrier was reefing on the horse's leg just a bit to much out to the side. Hurts the shoulder as well as the knee.

Corado was giving a nice and polite, for a horse, warning. I've had horses do that to me and in every instance I was doing something with potential to be uncomfortable, or that the might be frightened of.

Hard actual hits from horses have been rare and in every single instance I inadvertently provoked the 'attack.' Brushed the lower flank on an ex bronc once...just grooming, but surprised him. Boy, did he nail me good.

Crowded a 7 or 8 month old Appy colt in pasture as I was trimming his mother's hooves. Caught me right in the gut. Without marshall arts training they could have buried me right there. Man, he was strong. And accurate, and deliberate. I was intruding on his relationship with his mother, plain and simple. I think he must have thought, when I bent to pick up a hind hoof that I was another colt going to suckle her. That was HIS. And he let me know.

horsefever wrote:
he tried to kick him discreetly when he was straddling his front foot. I now believe him because he's alot more dominant than before especially with Magik.


Or willing to give polite warnings (which those kinds of 'missed you but pay attention, don't hurt me or frighten me' kicks are usually about).

horsefever wrote:
I think I have quite the horse on my hands now. So far, he's been very nice to me, but I haven't really asked him to work either. I just play. Maybe that's ok too. That's what I do with Magik and my relationship with both my horses is great.


Go with your feelings, of course, and your own observations on the ground, as it where.

And the wonderful thing about play, that so many here keep proving to us, is that play is expansible. Right out into what one might think of, were they not AND oriented, as work.

horsefever wrote:
Anyways, I will be careful with Chase the Tiger. I won't ask him to play this game every time I bring him out.


You obviously have a handle on it, and on him.

You make me envious and wanting all that much more to get Altea home where we can play together.

Donald R.

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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:55 am 
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I could not hope, I think, to find better examples of the point I was making ... that we take the behavior and direct it.

You have added considerably to my thinking, thank you.

The options and opportunities seem endless but it takes your kind of creativity to come up with those different things, and especially what tactics (for want of a better word) you are using to do that redirecting.

Obviously you are breaking the behavior itself, the reaction down to the Tiger, into discrete segments that have in themselves different meanings for your horse.

That takes considerable attention to detail and focus on identifying the state of mind of the horse. Very hard work for me, and not successful much of the time.

Mostly because of my own distractability and my own interfering internal dialogue from those old tapes of doing things other ways with horses than the AND way I'm trying to learn now.

Best wishes, Donald R.

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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:51 pm 
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Donald Redux wrote:
Horses kick for a number of reasons. Only one of which is to be mean in the establishment of dominance (even then it's instinctual).


That reminds me of last week, when Lydia had a friend over. When both of them started to tack up the ponies for a drive with the carriage, and later just played with them in the paddock, the friend said that Blacky and Sjors were quite amazing. So Lydia (highly flattered of course, thinking of all the things the ponies can do 8) ) asked why. Her reply: 'Because they don't kick!' Apparently all the shetlands ponies of other people she had met, kicked. :roll: :wink:

I think that tells more about how the ponies were handled and trained, than about the shetland pony breed... :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:58 pm 
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Quote:
You are joking or the farriers was, right? I mean did the farrier really say the horse was mean to him?

donald: I'm serious, and he was too. I didn't see what he did but corado is sometimes a little testy. when he doesn't win, he'll sigh and give in. Usually, his head is not up and he's not in a panicky mood. His head is low but it seems like he's saying "what will you do about that?" He's not mean just playful - that's how I see it.
but the farrier didn't touch him so I was glad about that.
what is weird about this is that the farrier trimmed his front left, then his hind left. Yesterday and this morning, I noticed that his hind left is sensitive (I think he removed too much frog at the apex). But Corado was testy with his right front, the leg he trimmed right after the hind. Is this a coincidence. I'll keep this in mind.
Anyways, I'm reading up alot on trimming my own horses and practicing with my hoofjack hoping that one day they will cooperate and I have enough knowledge not to hurt them.
thanks Donald for your encouragement I really appreciate it.


Quote:
want to keep them energetic and lively during the sessions, and just doig focused work tends to overcollect them and slow them down a bit.

Miriam: I can totally understand you. How I wish I could think like that. But I'm still a little uneasy when they are running around and so close to me. I don't feel safe yet. I'm working on it though. 3 years ago, when I bought Corado, and he took off like a flash because we just asked him to circle (Parelli method), I ran out of the arena. I thought he would kill me. Now, he trots beside me and he used to run after me where he was boarding but I had obstacles to protect me. Now, I do run around but if he were to run after me, I would run underneath the fence. that reminds me, sometimes I do ask him to come towards me and when he does I walk backwards with energy, he'll trot towards me. I'm not scared then and I greet him with a hug. One day, all my fears will go away.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:06 pm 
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A friend said to me this weekend 'Chasing the Tiger' is a Parelli game?!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:59 pm 
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Unless this is new or it is part of level 3, I have never heard of this in Parelli (maybe they got it from AND :wink:
they do play with the horse but not following a target
Joc


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:05 am 
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Quote:
they do play with the horse but not following a target


I often cringe when I watch this Parelli "game" .. and then hear it called play. It's usually just the horse desparately trying to not let the trainer get near it's hindquarters, and keep on turning to face. It can build up into quite an intricate looking dance.. but at it's base it's just responding in a trained way to pressure. I swear, I can see the trainers smiling.. but the horses.. almost never. IMO, there is nothing spontaneous about it that could let it deserve the title of "play". And could you imagine the Parelli trainer's response if the horse reared up, feinted, struck out with a front foot, twisted up into a side kick and raced off in the other direction. :shock: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:34 am 
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Bianca wrote:
A friend said to me this weekend 'Chasing the Tiger' is a Parelli game?!


:D :lol:

I think that she thinks so because the AND Chase the Tiger game was heartily embraced by the Dutch NHforum (which is 99% Parelli), and some of their members really use it in their Parelli training. But the origins of it are 100% AND I'm afraid.

As long as they make their horses happy with it, I don't mind! :D


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:27 pm 
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Miriam wrote:
Bianca wrote:
A friend said to me this weekend 'Chasing the Tiger' is a Parelli game?!


:D :lol:

I think that she thinks so because the AND Chase the Tiger game was heartily embraced by the Dutch NHforum (which is 99% Parelli), and some of their members really use it in their Parelli training. But the origins of it are 100% AND I'm afraid.

As long as they make their horses happy with it, I don't mind! :D


I'm curious as to the genesis of "Chase the Tiger," here in AND.

I recall discussing my use of "The Black Plastic Sabertoothed Tiger" to help Dakota, the flighty and excitable Morgan gelding overcome his dangerous behavior, and likely I was inspired by something I read here in AND, to come up with that term.

When did we start with "Chase the Tiger," as a phrase in training or play?

I agree. If the Parelli NH folks want to use the term and the concept, all the better. It introduces a change, a shift in their paradigm of training, to something more playful and horse oriented.

I'm quite tickled that they'd be explore anything that could shift into horse directed play, if it does.

It certainly did with Dakota. I still spend a great deal of time just laughing rather than "training" when I'm with Dakota.

Donald R.

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:20 pm 
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[quote="Donald Redux
It certainly did with Dakota. I still spend a great deal of time just laughing rather than "training" when I'm with Dakota.

Donald R.[/quote]


how lovely, me too. I laugh everyday!

And especially today as we hard our first go with the tiger (plastic sack tied on a string tied to my stick). Despite reading these posts beforehand I was amazed and delighted how doggedly he tracked it; any pace, any direction. He didn't seem remotely distressed, just very very interested!

So thank you for this wonderful game - we'll be doing more!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:29 pm 
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Charlotte wrote:
Donald Redux wrote:
It certainly did with Dakota. I still spend a great deal of time just laughing rather than "training" when I'm with Dakota.

Donald R.



how lovely, me too. I laugh everyday!

And especially today as we hard our first go with the tiger (plastic sack tied on a string tied to my stick). Despite reading these posts beforehand I was amazed and delighted how doggedly he tracked it; any pace, any direction. He didn't seem remotely distressed, just very very interested!

So thank you for this wonderful game - we'll be doing more!


I think the Chase the Tiger game is really a product of AND development. Likely here before I came here.

My use of it only peripherally included any chasing for anything other than teaching courage and overcoming shying and bolting when frightened.

I've followed others use of Chase the Tiger here very closely as it evolved to something much more. A way to stop driving the horse and begin leading, just as horses tend to do in play, rather than their sometimes bullying.

Horse friends lead each other, even when it appears they are sparing. It's play fighting.

And that is, to my understanding, one part of Chase the Tiger, a play fight.

But more important, I think, as play fighting (chasing the tiger aggressively) is simply a release of the horse from our dominance, while using the target as something to follow is inviting the horse to play a puzzle with you.

Donald R.

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:28 pm 
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Donald Redux wrote:

I recall discussing my use of "The Black Plastic Sabertoothed Tiger" to help Dakota, the flighty and excitable Morgan gelding overcome his dangerous behavior, and likely I was inspired by something I read here in AND, to come up with that term.

When did we start with "Chase the Tiger," as a phrase in training or play?



I searched the forum for the word 'tiger' and the earliest remark I could find was by you :D
I don't know what you have based it on? Did you learn the exercise from anyone? Maybe that person called it chasing the cat, the giraffe, the monster ;)? Or did you invent the game? Great to get to the bottom of this just to make sure the right people get GREAT CREDITS :applause:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:35 pm 
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Well, I'd just assumed that folks here had been playing with targeting using a wand or whip and had experienced "The Chase," instinct in horses and used it.

My guess is that it did happen before I came here to AND. That I might have come up with a name AND folks saw as applicable to their experience with their horse is a credit to them, and a compliment, a small one to me.

AND participants come up with all kinds of things I've never thought of before but might have had an inkling of during my many years of working with horses....BUT FAILED TO RECOGNIZE AS SOMETHING I COULD BUILD A HORSE-HUMAN relationship of greater richness and reward for both.

My contribution is tiny compared to theirs, yours too.

Koko Hano Hano, the QH stallion that I shared time with in Hawaii in the 60's taught me the chase game. It came as no surprise to me, of course, because I had learned to work with and had begun training cutting horses, and saw the instinct in many other horses as well.

A dog running through a pasture with horses often becomes part of the demonstration of it.

Koko was wonderful at it. Though none of it took place while being ridden. He and I simply played a great deal after the day he charged me in play, and all I could think of or have time for, was to charge back at him, and the game was on.

I had many times wanted to be with horses in a different way. I was very good indeed at pressure release methods. Something was always missing, and from time to time horses gave me hints, but until Koko laid it on me with his 1500 lbs of gorgeousness and fire I just didn't git it.

When I first saw AND I made the connection back to him. And that fateful day. And the many months we played until I turned him out with his band of mares forever.

Thanks for the credit, or blame, as the case may be :lol: :lol: :lol:

If Dakota was my own horse I'd have gone much farther with him with "Chase the Black Plastic Sabertoothed Tiger," you can be sure.

He still has much of the same fire he showed me once, but I don't trust that others would know how to deal with it, and might punish him for it ... so let it go.

Now he just works off his hocks, and tosses his head playfully, and that's it, when he's frisky.

I miss Koko.

Donald R.

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:41 am 
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I will try to dig some information out of my memory, which is far too small to remember everything that has been posted here by now. But Chase the Tiger developed at a time when I still remembered every post. ;) :funny:

Chase the Tiger is not exactly an AND product. The game + name combination is, but not the game itself.

Helen played it with Esprit and posted a video in the NHE forum before she joined AND. Esprit became Kirsti's wonder horse due to that game over there, as she tied a jacket (pullover?) to a rope, dragged it along behind her and finally got her horses to play, and then wrote about it here. When Helen arrived at AND, people were fascinated by that game and several of our members tried it with their own horses.

Independent of that, Donald wrote about the Sabertooth tiger and how he bomb proofed Dakota with it.

And Brenda was doing a calm version of chasing the tiger (lunging with a target) as well before she joined AND (first posted here by Karen in some other topic and then in the CTT topic, Brenda joined us later).

It all came together in a sticky written by Miriam, where she put together all the contributions from different members and created the name "Chase the Tiger".


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:37 pm 
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That's approximately, Romy, how I remember it.

I actually didn't do any real "chase the tiger," as in follow a target, with Dakota until well after I'd done the bombproofing work and was looking for a way to encourage his more active play.

He was, as so many are, a horse that was trying to work through being intimidated.

His first 'Tiger,' in fact, was an old umbrella I encouraged him to chase and bat around with his forefeet.

The Chase the Tiger game certainly has a great deal of potential in a number of ways. The development of it here is certainly a team effort. One I wish I had more time to explore.

Once the little horsebarn for Altea is done and she is mending her feet well she might be my partner in just that. She's rather easily intimidated and knows only pressure/release handling from humans I am thinking.

I'd love to move through that with her to more independence. And this is the tool.

I think we, AND members that is, are at a point where it's difficult to find any of us not using some variation on Chase the Tiger.

Yeah team!

Donald R.

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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