The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:39 pm 

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:27 pm
Posts: 483
Location: Corneto di Toano, Italy
Well, I didn't weigh the food nor the doggies, but Xinshu (I guess about 9kilo) got a full chicken leg and for Gritzl (about 6kilo I think) got a chicken leg where I cut off some of the meat which I gave to the cat.

I was particularly amazed about the speed that Xinshu ate it, because his was still deep frozen.
Gritzl's was just fresh and it was about half the size of Xinshu's.
But apparently they manage to munch through these bones in no time...

Today they got some frozen Alaska Pollak, he got 200gr (in 2 pieces), she got 1 piece of 100gr.
It took them a bit longer than yesterday, probably because chewing off pieces of a fish-ice cream...
Even though again Xinshu finished a lot sooner than Gritzl - he really flies through his food!

Remarkable: afterwards Xinshu was shivering. Would it be because of the storm outside, which he is always scared of?
It is indeed extremely stormy here for the moment.
Or was those 200gr deepfrozen fish cooling off his body too much?
The little one showed no signs like that at all. And yesterday he did not shiver at all after his chicken leg.

A new procedure always gives new questions in life... :huh:

:love:

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AnneMarie

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You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make'em drink...


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:43 pm 
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Location: Bavaria, Germany
I was quite enthusiastic to try actually, but then again I got doubtful and my mom is quite against it, because of splintering (just the thing AnneMarie mentioned) and also salmonella and other pathogens, mainly concerning pork. Oh, and it's also that wolves will bury their meat often and eat it later on when it's rotten or just bones or whatever...

I think that my knowledge about all of that is really limited and since I heard of some cases where the dogs wouldn't bear raw flesh, I'm a bit worried. So I need to get to understand it better myself, first and afterwards convince my mom, we may start with an egg I think, I'm not sure but I think we did that in former times, too :huh:

I cannot quite believe it how people could start to feed their dogs grains, it's all weird, but of course there are many things like this and we do so very much just because it's cheap and more comfortable and we use to forget about the most natural things...


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:00 pm 
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Bella wrote:
I was quite enthusiastic to try actually, but then again I got doubtful and my mom is quite against it, because of splintering (just the thing AnneMarie mentioned)

Hi Bella, raw bones do not splinter because of the collagene. Only cooked bones can splinter.

Quote:
and also salmonella

As soon as carnivores are on their raw diet salmonella can not harm them anymore. It is when they are on kibble that all sorts of ilnesses such as salmonella can harm them because the stomach acid can not reach to the carnivor potentieal which is a reall health hazard and the source of all carnivore ilnesses that we have grown accustomed to as normal but certainly is not.

Quote:
and other pathogens, mainly concerning pork.

Indeed, that is why we advise not to feed pork. All the other preys are not a problem.

Quote:
Oh, and it's also that wolves will bury their meat often and eat it later on when it's rotten or just bones or whatever.

Indeed, which proves bacteria can not do any harm with carnivores who are on a raw diet.

Quote:
I think that my knowledge about all of that is really limited and since I heard of some cases where the dogs wouldn't bear raw flesh, I'm a bit worried.

You should indeed first read into it. That is why Ester has posted all the info to start with. When carnivores get kibble their stomach acid is not acid enough anymore. Therefore harmful bacteria, parasites and viruses can move thru the stomach into the body. First time a carnivore eats fresh meat he can go a bit ill. Therefore you need to take certain precautions such as making sure the stomach has been absolutely empty for at least 6 hours.

Quote:
So I need to get to understand it better myself, first and afterwards convince my mom, we may start with an egg I think, I'm not sure but I think we did that in former times, too :huh:

Just read up and see if you yourself are convinced of the benefits. Then you can explain to your mom why you think it will be of benefit.

Quote:
I cannot quite believe it how people could start to feed their dogs grains, it's all weird, but of course there are many things like this and we do so very much just because it's cheap and more comfortable and we use to forget about the most natural things...

Here here!

I do not mind when people are against something of course. But I ask everyone to first really look in to something before one sets his opinion.

Concerning the issue of feeding vegan food to carnivores is to me just as wrong as bio-industry, animal testing etc.
A carnivore is a carnivore. We have to accept that just as much as we have to accept the fact that a horse is a prey does not need to live in caves and needs grass/hay 24/24 etc.
It is anyone’s choice to care for their animals the way they think is best.
I can only inform about the natural needs of horses, cats and dogs. It’s up to anyone here to take advantage of the info given or not.

Whether we should keep carnivores because of the fact that they need to eat prey is a totally different subject. Whilst we do have them to care for now does mean to me we have to provide them with their basic needs.
If you care about animal welfare outside our horses, cats and dogs, then that is even more great. There are many ways to help with that too. Find leftover prey from animals who had a good life and are killed for human consumption anyway. (The prey we feed would else by burned!) And we decided to be vegetarians so there won’t be more meat eaten.
The choice is each alone, and of course we all can only do so much. We have to work with what we’ve got.

And last, if you really don’t think you can work with raw meat; it’s better to give cooked meat then kibble. As long as food is fresh, has variety and is based on what a carnivore should eat, your little carnivores health will improve.
It is better to eat cooked fruits and vegetables then no fruits and vegetables at all. For a carnivore, prey are his fruits and vegetables as is grassy plant for the horse.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:31 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
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Location: Western Cape, South Africa
I haven't read this whole thread but wanted to add my thoughts.
A few years ago I had a German Shepherd that at 6 years of age I had to put down.
During my journey of things to help him my vet gave me a book called "give your dog a bone"
I think there is a website and follow on books.
The point being (and my vet agreeing) that most dogs today are fed a processed bag dry biscuit source (and yes I was an offender spending a fortune on top vet brands with no avail). Although these foods contain balanaced ingredients/nutrients the dog is not able to use these effectively due to not ingesting other food sources.
So I proceeded to mix my own dog food which consisted of mostly raw veg and fruit with raw meat. I added human grade supplements as well as vitamins and kelp etc. The whole diet was laid out and my dog loved it. I gained a full year where he was off all the vet drugs before I had him put down.
Today my dog (cross breed) is fed from the table (literally everything that we don't eat gets put in his bowl). He still has dry biscuits so that there is always something to nibble on, but the bulk of his diet comes from our table including fruit and yoghurt!
He thinks apples and carrots are treats and will beg for raw veg when I am chopping for supper! :funny:
He is extremely healthy and has never been sick in his 3 years of life.

As my vet pointed out ....most dogs in this country kept by rich people are fed dry biscuits and are highly bred thoroughbred breeds. These are the dogs she sees most with skin/ear irritations and bad conformation as our gene pools for these dogs are small.
In contrast the township dogs that she sees eat what they can find and this often consists of rubbish food, left overs and bones. Apart from mange and fleas they are better built and have less complications. They breed at will across all breeds and don't have the hip dyplasia and arthritus that a lot of our pure bred dogs have.

Again we talk of money. Most of the bagged dog food companies are the ones that sponsor the vets and showing events and we just accept they know best. Thankfully I have a forward thinking vet who really wants to help the animals even if she sells less bagged dog food!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:36 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
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Location: Western Cape, South Africa
P.S Most pet shops now sell home made dog food in the freezer section.....if cooking/mixing is too much like hard work. I used to mix a huge tub and bag the food and then freeze it. Each day I would just take out what I needed. If you are already purchasing a vet bagged food it will cost you the same amount to feed home made food and your dog will enjoy it more and be healthier.

The only down side I can see to lots of bones is the teeth. My dogs teeth have taken a hammering (odd chips here and there) but he suffers no ill effects from this.

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Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. - John Lennon


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:01 pm 
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PS, thanks Annette!!! :kiss:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:54 pm 
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Location: Bavaria, Germany
I guess to me it is enough that dogs want to hunt and love meat to be okay with their choice. I cannot tell from personal experience if a vegetarian feed would do them any good or harm or whatever, but I'm grateful for every opinion (and scientific proof ;)) shared to make up my mind and up to now I feel that an animal is clever enough to decide himself what he wants to eat if he gets to choose, and I'm quite sure that this tends to me just meat...

By the way, what exactly is the definition of kibble? Is that just any kibbled food, no matter if vegan or only meat...in any conservated form :huh: ?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:59 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
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Location: Western Cape, South Africa
Okay...for those that do want to try a healthy raw diet for their animals here is the link for the BARF diet. The book is a great investment if you are serious to go this route, otherwise I think most of the main points you can get from the net.
I personally went the whole route with my last dog and gained a year I would not have had. My current dog (now I know better) is doing well being fed from the table......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qul4eTlD0mc

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Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. - John Lennon


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:49 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
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Location: Western Cape, South Africa
Here's a great FAQ for those confused by how to start:
http://www.topdog.ie/content.php?151-Raw-BARF-Diet-FAQ

As you can see, I am a great believer in this diet having seen it work first hand..... :D

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Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. - John Lennon


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:59 pm 
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Thanks Anette :)

@ Bella, kibble stands for chemical induced and processed animal and plant leftovers from human food industry.

I can imagine that cats and dogs will improve in health if they go from commercial kibble to vegan biological kibble at first. Mine did at the beginning. But after a year the problems started. I nearly killed them with it :sad: There is just no way of surogating animal raw proteine which is the buidling block for healthy cell tissue in a carnivor.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:02 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:03 am
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Josepha,
I don't know what the pet food market looks like in Europe but here in the US kibble does not equal kibble. There is huge variations. It is true that all kibble has been heat processed and is therefore not nearly as nutritious as raw food. But there are varieties that are baked rather than extruded (more heated), many have human-grade ingredients, some even have organic ingredients (can't afford those :sad: ), many have no animal by-products (anything that's not muscle-meat), a few have as much meat as grain, many have no pork. There are a lot of choices. While I can see that an animal that eats a cheap, grain-based kibble would have major problems being put on a BARF- type diet suddenly I have had very good success using a mixed (part dry kibble/part raw) approach. This is more affordable and less time-consuming for me. I think I would probably go all raw food for any of my cats or dogs that develop any chronic health problems because it would indicate to me that they need the absolute best ingredients in their diet that will allow their bodies to heal themselves as much as possible. The other thing that I think makes a difference is breeds (esp. very inbred) that are genetically predisposed to certain illnesses like cancer, autoimmune problems, orthopedic problems, skin problems, heart problems, digestive disorders, kidney and liver problems. With them there would be less margin for error.
Thanks for all the wonderful information, just wanted to add some options for those who are not ready to make the plunge all the way. :)

Birgit


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:27 pm 
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Thank you too, for the added information Birgit :)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:55 am 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
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Location: Western Cape, South Africa
Birgit,
I agree totally. Which was my point about highly bred dogs. Often the gene pools are just too small and the dogs are inbred either knowingly or unknowingly by the breaders. This was the exact case of my german shepherd who had an auto immune deficiency. Problems with skin started to arrive at age 3 and by 5 he was on regular cortisone injections (which I hated for all the obvious reasons) because his ears would leak pus. :sad:
I had scrappings taken and went to the best vets I could who all told me nothing could be done to solve the problem, I was just treating symptoms and his long term prognosis was not good.
This led me to research everything I could and he went onto a full BARF diet for a year. It was unbelieveable. He came off all the drugs and we treated him homeopathically with the vet and he went back to his old self for a whole year before he started to go downhill again.
It was extremely stressful to watch him suffer and I decided (rightly or wrongly) that I did not want to see him sitting day by day shaking his head and eating himself and whilst still mobile it would be kinder to put him to sleep.

When searching for a new dog I went to the spca and got a cross breed. He is half german pointer and half lab. He has absolutely no health problems at all. Since his puppy jabs he has not visited a vet or been sick at all. I feed him similar to you. He gets the dry biscuits ad lib and decides himself if he wants it or not but also gets all the left overs and raw fruit/veg as treats as well as lots of raw bones.

I see so many dogs in my friends homes that have "skin" conditions. They do not understand that a dry diet is causing this and tell me that any bones/tidbits make it worse! (I was the same, believing it was right to only feed the vet approved kibble). The start of imlementing this kind of raw diet can cause worse symptoms to begin with as the dog tries to rid itself of all the toxins, but then again the dog has had the skin irritation for how many years? Intersetingly you can actually smell the skin of a dog that is not healthy.

We are literally killing our animals with this processed junk. We are doing the same to our kids with processed junk. Why.....because it's easier and saves time!!!!! :D

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:45 pm 
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You will spend lots of time once they get ill. We have been with Spike every night at the vets for a month and drove all over the country with him to diverse hostpital while he was in complete agony. :(
No one can could help us... then we fixed it with fresh meat and some homeopathic medicine.

Are your friends not convinced by what happened to your german? Show them my movie :)

The moment I heard of BARF I thought 'of course'... makes sense not to feed a carnivor dry stuff without hardly any meat or without meat at all. So I tried it and it saved two of my cats life. Started the horses on a grass/hay diet as well, same as my guinea pigs. Away with all the commercial dry food.
Ralph became a vegatarian then because of the raw = natural diet philosophy. He figueres, since we humans can not eat raw meat and bones, it can never be natural to us. And by the way, his skin and respiratoy problems dissapeared. :yes: :)

People seem to forget that every species has developed to grow new sells on a certain type of food. The more natural the food to the specie, the better the cell structure and therefore health.
And of course visa versa.
When you have a car made to drive on gas-oil, you're not going to throw in gasoline for a reason.

Makes me really loose it when 'scientific' people like vets say; dogs and cats 'have evolved' since 1960 to eat commercial rubbish. First it takes millions of years... then it only takes decades? Come on!
So if we start feeding horses beef jerky now, they will be living a healthy live on beef jerky say 2070 or so.... :roll: yeah right... :blonde:
Yet to find a vet to win the argument from me :green:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:01 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
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Location: Western Cape, South Africa
No, I have given up trying to convert my friends....they just don't believe me, and look at me like I am some kind of nutter!
You Josepha know the story well, how many times have you told people to take shoes of their horses, and their vet tells them otherwise!
It's the same with bagged processed horse feed, those horse people that have had livery yards for years just will not recognise the importance of a horse eating all day, not just twice a day.......

Unfortunately the animals suffer while the pharmacutical companies get rich fixing all the problems they created in the first place. :roll:
Luckily I have a vet that spent 4 years studying homeopathy and alternative therapies.....I don't know how she manages to deal with those clients that don't want to hear what she has to say.

Anyway, my hope is that if just one person here at AND reading this thread gives BARF a try at least we have spread the word. :D
They will see for themselves how much healthier their dog or cat becomes. You are so right in that most times it's a last ditch attempt at saving an animal when all else has failed. I had to learn the hard way...........

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Annette O'Sullivan

Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. - John Lennon


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