The Art of Natural Dressage

Working with the Horse's Initiative
It is currently Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:38 pm

All times are UTC+01:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:37 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:03 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Netherlands
Ania wrote:
I was told that chicken bones are dangerous for dogs, because they break into sharp "needles" and they can pinch the intestines. But I see that there are chicken carcasses in the menu - aren't you worried about that?

Hi Ania,
No, you shouldn't worry :wink:
Chicken-bones are fine but you have to give the bones raw!
Only heated (cooked,grilled etc.) bones will start to splinter, and yes,if you give heated bones they can cause serious damage.
Have you ever seen a wolf with a grilled, cooked or fried chicken? :)
Raw chicken bones are really fine. Just like the wolves would eat it in the wild.

You should read this:
http://www.rawmeatybones.com/book-ww.php
You can read his book online, all the information about raw food is in it.

Quote:
What about dogs which are allergic to food? My golden retriever used to have many food allergies (and she's also allergic to some insects if they bite her), and it was hard to find proper food for her. She also has food for old (less energetic) and large dogs (some vitamins against hip dysplasia, etc.). And raw food - isn't it "one for all"?
When she had those allergies (or anything else), the vet told me to feed her with boiled chicken meat and rice. Is it something like raw diet?

Most of the dogs who are allergic to food are allergic to grains, rice included. And they are allergic to the chemicals in pet-food.

If you want to start with a raw diet for your allergic dog, the best way to start is this:
* You should give your dog meat from one animal which you haven't fed your dog before.
* You should give this for 6 weeks. You have to give the organs, muscle meat and bones from this animal.
* If everything goes well, you can introduce another kind of animal. And so on. Remember: no grains, no rice! No cookies, just the meat from one animal :wink: Really nothing else.
(chicken and beef and lamb are not the best meat-products to start with because these products are used in kibble and other dog-foods.)

Quote:
I see that raw is different than BARF - what is the difference, and why?

Many BARF'ers use all kind of supplements, vegetables and other products, and they use other %.
The raw-food theory is based on whole prey-animals. For example: the BARF theory advises these percentages:
60% raw bones (50% meat en 50% bones)
15%% raw vegetables and fruit.
10% organs
5% - 10% supplements.
Well, a whole prey animal like a rabbit for example doesn't contain 30% bone!
So we think these percentages are just not natural and are just invented by a vet who makes his own commercial food :wink:

If you don't want to give whole prey-animals you just make your own "Frankenstein-prey". The wings of a chicken, the legs of a rabbit, the heart of a sheep, the liver from a hare. etc. etc. (just an example!)
You compose your prey yourself, by using these percentages:
15% organs
15% bones
60% red meat/muscle meat.
So in fact you give your dog a whole prey but in a different way.

Quote:
I have to admit that I'm really ignorant about this subject! :oops: I promised to study it, but I never did, and now my own dog is old! :lol:
Here are some "artistic" photos of her, taken today ;)

It's never ever to late! :)

I know some dogs with hip problems and bone problems. Switching to a raw diet often make their lives easier but raw food can't heal all diseases and disorders.

But yes, dogs can get HD from kibble.
Pups fed on raw food grow in normally divided stages. They will take their time to grow to an adult dog, in comparing to their brothers and sisters who are fed by kibble.

Cheers,
Ester


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:33 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:03 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Netherlands
Hi Colette,

Quote:
Because I will only buy them free range and organic where possible it is very expensive. That is why they dont have raw meat always instead of the pilchards. (I am vegan and would love them to be too! I know they cant but I wont buy them factory farmed meat!!).

Cats are carnivores indeed and they just need meat to stay healthy.
You won't give them whole animals like a mouse I think?
Maybe you can give them hare,deer,pigeons? Animals who have lived in the wild?

Quote:
I have two cats which have very bad flea allergies so I am wondering what I can do to boost their immune systems or if you have some idea what I can do with their diet to help that.

Give them raw food, only chicken and fish isn't enough. They will become ill because they will lack any kind of nutrition. If you don't want to feed other raw-meat products you should give them, never thought I would say that, a commercial food. I'm very sorry to say this but I'm afraid your cats will become ill if you don't change your menu.

Quote:
Also, do they not need some vegetables? I thought that because their prey are normally herbivores that they get the food the prey has in its stomach?

No the absolutely don't :)
Cats in the wild won't even eat the stomach of their prey. They just don't need any grains or vegetables. Vegetable products even cause serious damage to their liver and kidneys. Cats are a 100% carnivores.
Even wolves won't eat the stomach contents, if there is enough food available.
http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html

Quote:
Look forward to your answers but please dont think me rude if I dont reply quickly as I am away again for a few days from tomorrow.
Thank you

Oh no, I'm very busy myself too. :wink:

Thank you.

Best wishes,
Ester.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:43 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:03 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Netherlands
AndreaO wrote:
Great to have you here Esther :cheers:

Hi Andrea, thank you!

Quote:
I am switching my puppy to raw food, she is now 6 months old. One thing I am most hesitant about right now is the bones/calcium. At the moment I still give next to no bones but just ground egg shells. Everywhere people warn to not overfeed calcium to puppies, as they contrary to adult dogs can't get rid of the excess and it supposedly does cause then some kind of harm.

Too much calcium can be dangerous but dogs can digest real bones much better!
Just feed your dog 15% bones, just like the % of bones in a whole prey! Nature can't be wrong isn't :wink:
(If you feed BARF you should feed your puppy 30% raw meaty bones: 50% of a bone should be meat and 50% should be bone)

Quote:
I was thinking that natural calcium from bones should be no problem, as wild dogs might also "overeat" on the optimal bone amount. As you did simplify the BARF, if I understood correctly, I would be most interested in those simplifications. :D

No, it isn't a problem! If your dog have never had whole bones you should start with bones who are easy to digest: chicken,rabbit,hare,pigeon,quial, bones from very young lambs. And so on! :)


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:01 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:03 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Netherlands
horsefever wrote:
This topic is so interesting since I'm in the process of changing my cat's food (from dry food bought at the vet's to an American company called natures variety (www.naturesvariety.com).
their idea is variety - raw meal, dry meal and I forget the third type). but it does make sense.
My question though is that I have a 13 y.o. male cat (castrated) with a kidney problem and needs a special diet. I have two cats that vomit all the time and I believe it's their food since they're not vomiting furballs.
Ester: have you heard that raw food will stop or at least reduce the vomiting. Also, what about the kidney problem.
The representative in my region is on vacation under the 12th of October so I was supposed to meet her then to discuss this but someone else's opinion would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Jocelyne


Hi Jocelyne,
Yes, cats can stop vomiting if you change your diet.
But I can't garanty you that.
In most of the kibble and commercial brands they add chemicals (like BHT,BHA,ethoxiquine, surf on the internet yourself :wink: )
Most of the time young animals look very healthy. But true the years when they become older the body is just poisoned.
They can get severe kidney/liver problems, cancer, bladder problems.

Most of the vets don't know anything about raw food, and most of the vets are sponsored by big-kibble brands.
Check this:
http://rawfed.com/myths/vets.html

If a cat has kidney problems you should:

*Only give your cat bones from poulty.
*Duck-meat is the best!
*Just a little bit organ (10% of the menu)
*Give your cat every day a little bit fish oil
*Cooked eggs

If you want, I can give you a menu specially for cats with kidney problems.

Ester.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:35 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:01 pm
Posts: 1479
Location: Quebec, Canada
THANK-YOU ESTER for the advice. I will start by giving fish oil (how about sardine oil)?
Cooked eggs? like scrambled eggs? Wow, never imagined I could give eggs to my cats.
I will continue reading up on this subject and I would be grateful if you would provide me with a menu of some sort for Borris. Would this menu be ok for the other three without a problem?

You are very generous giving your time and and knowledge so we can help our animals. thumbs up to you!! :thumright:


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:15 am 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:18 pm
Posts: 103
Location: uk
Hi Ester,
thanks for your reply.
Im not quite sure why their diet is so lacking but think it must be because they dont get the organs.(liver heart etc.) Is that right? Or is it the variety of animal too.
I was feeding them liver but then could only get it from factory farmed animals and my concern with that is not just animal welfare but also the amount of chemicals that are found in it like antibiotics etc.

They catch their own mice sometimes.
I dont know where I would get game meat like deer, it would be very expensive.

Are the eggs ok to give?

I will certainly start feeding them the organ meat again.

However, I think because they have the allergy problem I need something now as well as the basic diet to boost the immune system so is there anything you would recommend?

Thanks so much for your help.
All the best
Colette


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:51 am 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:01 pm
Posts: 1479
Location: Quebec, Canada
I decided to ask a simple question to my vet today and that is "what is your opinion about feeding raw food to my cats". I knew that she would be against (after reading this post) but she brought up a good point.
Raw meat today can give animals certain diseases, example, ground meat not cooked will give the same disease as humans. I didn't quite agree but do you have the facts on this issue?


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:49 am 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:40 pm
Posts: 4733
Location: Belgium
Permit me to answer Jocelyn and Ester. Ester can fill up my gabs later :)

But for one, if that were so, there would not be any wolf, dog, cat lion etc living on this planet anymore.

I simply can not understand why vets draw the same conclusions about omnivores as well as carnivors.

A carnivor is designed to eat prey (raw meat thus)
Raw meat and bones is to a carnivor what is a salade to us humans.

Now, the only problems occur when we humans give cats and dogs dry food with chemicals and grains!
(Who would give beef to a horse or a cow? No one, yet we feed grains to cats and dogs. What is the effect...?).

When we give grains (dry food) to a carnivor for a while, the beautiful, magnificent stomach accid, designed to digest prey and kill all bacteria etc. instantly, even rotten prey corpes, is undermined totally.

What happenes is that it makes the stomach PH accid move up!
Now not only will the carnivor be less able to handle digesting prey (which then gives humans the idea that it is not good for them), but the vital body protection of the carnivor, the magic stomach accid, is lost!
This is what makes carnivors ill. Ironic is it not?

Therefore, you have to make sure your carnivor's stomach acid is up to scratch as much as possible by making sure the stomach is completly empty. So no eating for 12 hours and no drinking for 2.
Then you can introduce a small raw meal for the first time.

Hope that answers you or better, your vets question :D

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:02 am 
Site Admin

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
But isn't that just for dogs? I read that cats shouldn't be without food that long, while for dogs it is no problem.

And about the raw meat, I thought raw meat was no problem as long as you don't feed pig to your animals as that is as harmful for them as for us.

But it's an interesting question indeed. Do cats and dogs suffer from salmonella and E. coli when they've eaten contaminated meat?

_________________

New horse book: Mandala horses!


Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:35 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:03 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Netherlands
horsefever wrote:
THANK-YOU ESTER for the advice. I will start by giving fish oil (how about sardine oil)?
Cooked eggs? like scrambled eggs? Wow, never imagined I could give eggs to my cats.
I will continue reading up on this subject and I would be grateful if you would provide me with a menu of some sort for Borris. Would this menu be ok for the other three without a problem?

You are very generous giving your time and and knowledge so we can help our animals. thumbs up to you!! :thumright:


Hi,
I feel very sorry because I have just a lack of time. I'm always busy with all kind of events.
But here I'm.
Yes, you can give this menu also to your other cats .
And you can just cook the eggs in water for about 6 minutes.
If your cats refuse to eat eggs just mix them up with something they really like.
Instead of chicken meat you can choose something else: quial, pigeon and so on. Poultry is the best for cats with these kind of problems.

Mo: Heart 40 gramms, kidney 20 grams, 60 gr duck meat

Tu: Chickennecks 60 grams, hare/rabbit muscular meat 60 grams.

We: Chickennecks 50 grams,Turkey muscular meat 80 grams.

Th: Chicken carcass 60 grams, half an egg, chicken filet 70 grams.

Fr: Duck meat 120 grams, duckheart 20 grams

Sa: Hare muscular meat 110 grams, liver 25 grams

Su: Chicken carcass 40 grams, egg 20 grams, chicken filet 75 grams

Add every day a thee spoon of fish oil. Sardine oil would be fine.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:37 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:03 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Netherlands
horsefever wrote:
I decided to ask a simple question to my vet today and that is "what is your opinion about feeding raw food to my cats". I knew that she would be against (after reading this post) but she brought up a good point.
Raw meat today can give animals certain diseases, example, ground meat not cooked will give the same disease as humans. I didn't quite agree but do you have the facts on this issue?


What kind of diseases do you mean?
Salmonellosis/Salmonella?


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:40 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:03 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Netherlands
Miriam wrote:
I read that cats shouldn't be without food that long, while for dogs it is no problem.

Yes, that's correct. Cats can't be without food. They will get problems with their liver. Especially fat cats.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:47 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:40 pm
Posts: 4733
Location: Belgium
how long exactly Ester?

thanx! :D

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:52 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:03 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Netherlands
Miriam wrote:
But it's an interesting question indeed. Do cats and dogs suffer from salmonella and E. coli when they've eaten contaminated meat?


No, a healthy animal won't get salmonella.
Dogs/cats can get salmonella always, not only from meat. If they smell at other animals faeces for example. Bacteria are everywhere!

Dogs fed a dry food for long periods the PH levels of the digestive system are lowered to an alkaline base which also contributes to the "bloom" by not having the acidic material available in the stomach.
Dogs on raw food: PH 1-3
Dogs on kibble: PH 2-6.
Wow, yes! That's a difference isn't! :wink:
Healthy dogs will get rid of all the bacteria!


Last edited by Ester on Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:01 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
Ester wrote:
No, a healty animal won't get salmonella.
Dogs/cats can get salmonella always, not only from meat. If they smell at other animals faeces for example. Bacteria are everywhere!



:oops: That actually makes a lot of sense, seeing how they love to play with poop... :lol:

Thanks for your answers!

_________________

New horse book: Mandala horses!


Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 Next

All times are UTC+01:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited Color scheme created with Colorize It.