The Art of Natural Dressage

I try to avoid the thinking in bad/good altogether.

After all, each method suits its goal: the Rollkur was developed in order to create extremely submissive and at the same time spectacular moving dressage horses, various NH methods have as main goal to creat safe and obedient horses. Most of the NH/dressge methods I studied don't have the same goal that I have (creating an enthusiastic and playful haute ecole shetland pony ) and therefore also use other tools than I do. If you want a rollkur-dressagehorse, or a submissive, quiet following horse as NH companion, AND isn't going to help. Both our goals and tools can't get you there.

If there isn't downright abuse going on, then I'm not really bothered by questions if a method or tool is good or wrong. It probably serves its goal. I rather take a look at the entire system as it is - goals, tools, history and philosophies included - and try to find out what I could use in my own system, with my own goal and tools.

Very wise also

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Madeleine

My, what a powerful reaction I had to both posts, of yours in response, Madeleine and Karen's on Walter Zettl, and softness, lightness, gentleness.

All those years of struggling to develop alternatives to bit pressure, leg pressure, the whip, to demanding performance for the goal I had for the horse.

That's very hard to think about...though I certainly did bumble along discovering some techniques that reduced the pressue, not the least of which was, of course, attention to my seat and use of aids, natural and artificial.

I wanted more, and here you are, speaking directly to what I sought for and never quite reached the level you take for granted as your goals.

I am so sorry I ever left horses. I could be where you two are if I'd stayed.

Well, I won't dwell too much on what is past.

And I'll concentrate on what I can learn here to make up in whatever way possibly for the past.

And as Karen points out, as do you, in the end, it isn't so much the equipment as the skill and method of the trainer, our horse's companion, ourselves.

I envy those of you that live close enough to gather and visit, because you will have the best of coaches when you do. Take advantage of that, any of you that can.

I feel terribly isolated. My nearest AND member is nearly 400 miles away. Though someday we may visit.

Next time I work with Dakota I'll have your words, both of you, and others here, sounding in my head, I'm sure. That happens already.

Now, wish me no more snow. We have almost a week more of it ahead according to the forcast and we are three feet now.

I think I better understand Kristi's sometime frustration with wanting to ride. Anything to get ABOVE the blasted, pretty, white snow.

I am suffering of all things, a tiny bit of snow blindness. My office has wonderfully big windows across the front of my home. The roof of the porch, just below me, is covered in snow, and I spent hours a couple of days ago, with bright sunlight reflecting off it into my face.

More to my left than right, and my right eyelid is swollen and my eye just a bit less visual function.

Now THAT was dumb, wasn't it?

I just stopped to move my articulated document holder to block most of the light.

Romy said she's enjoying Springlike weather. NOT FAIR.

Donald Redux

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Not exactly about talking to others, but I wanted to share an observation of someone´s reactions to what we are doing. I find it quite fascinating how some people deal with something they are highly interested in but that is new to them and maybe a bit scary as it could challenge their ways of being with horses.

The person I am talking about I will call H. Those who have read my diaries will know who I mean, but I don´t want to write names of people in the part of the forum that everyone can read when I am writing something that is only based on my own experiences and probably lots of interpretation, especially not if this person is of public interest (at least in our villages, although I don´t assume that any of her pupils will read here).

We have known each other for about 13 years but only this month started really talking and doing things together. Before that she was like any other neighbour, probably thinking that I was a bit crazy when I was cycling and riding with my horses on the cordeo, but we never talked about what I was actually doing and why.

She is very intrigued by the whole idea of working in a non-pressure way, although she has quite some difficulties to understand it, or to be more specific, to understand my reasons for doing it that way. Probably the tricks my horses are doing are part of her interest too, but she is also starting discussions about our philosophy of being with horses again and again. But this is contrary to what she, being a traditional riding instructor, is doing with her horses and children. Her way to deal with this is belittling my work with the horses. Not in a nasty or hurtful way, but you can really wait for the little remarks suggesting that this was all nonsense and funny tricks, or nothing special at all, and they will come. At every opportunity. On the other hand, she often says something along the lines of that I should do shows or that I could earn a lot of money by giving courses with a mixture between horse training and psychology.

I know that conflict she seems to be in right now and I also know that she just needs to find a way to deal with this, so I am trying never to argue against her or defend myself... more or less successful, but we are getting there. I also try to explain things to her and tell her why we are doing things the way we do. And most of all I try never to feel hurt, because I know that this is never ever directed against me, it´s about her.

Here are some examples of her belittling our work:

When she picked me up from a horseriding event where I had played with Pia and the kids - and I did find that work very important because it gave at least 10 riding club girls a whole new perspective on being with horses - she asked if we had played the joker (in German it´s "Pausenclown", which is someone who fills the breaks in an event with funny little tricks but has no importance of his own whatsoever) and if I had taught nonsense to the kids again.

A while later she had given me her young horse and I was rewarding her for attending to me with praise and oat, because this little mare was not used to humans communicating with her unless they were telling her what to do, and I felt in danger of just being pulled away, trampled down or pushed into the bushes. H. said that it was a shame, now I was spoiling her horse (she used the German "versauen" which has a strong conotation of destroying) so that she would need treats to get her to do things. This one really got me going. I told her in a friendly but very firm way that I was very effective at pressure-training a horse instead of using rewards, but that I just would not do it, and if she wanted her horse not to be treated in a positive reinforcement way I guess I was simply just the wrong person to lead that little mare and that she would have to take her back. Not a good reaction, but it made her kind of apologize, reassure me that it was totally okay and that it had only been a joke. Still I am not happy about my harsh reaction, but at least it reminds me that I still have to learn a lot about talking to people.

But the top of the iceberg was this: Pia had decided to follow me instead of going for a canter across the fields with H. and her horses. She had decided to follow me although there were other horses on a pasture who were very interested in her and she had even left the apples behind. When I arrived at H.´s pasture and told her that I was soooooo happy about my little angel and that I had not experienced this with my horses before I had started to work in a positive reinforcement way, her comment was "well, if one interacts with them a little and takes care of them a bit, they just do that " (and no, I am not going to write about her lesson horses´ behaviour and attitude towards humans here ). I only replied that until now I had always thought that I had taken care of Titum and Summy just a tad even before we started to work with R+, but basically I just went a few steps away with Pia to take a deep breath and NOT make that comment about her own horses.

And then there are all the comments about Pia just being with me because she is afraid to be alone, only wants the treats and so on. Interesting from a psychological point of view, but very tiresome at times. But it will be a fantastic practice in "getting in through the backdoor" for me, like saying yes, you are right, and then argumenting within the other one´s own belief system and making him shape his own personal truths all by himself, so that he never feels any resistance but can be the one in charge. Theoretically I know how to do that, but in those situations I really have to learn to actually DO it instead of being urged to defend myself.

As you may recall, Romy, you and I share a professional interest. My own work with psychology was in service delivery.

One of the most effective responses, though there are certainly many more as you have pointed out, I often found helpful in people sorting out their places of being stuck, was to remain neutral and as they offered their less than helpful opinions to simply ask them, when they stopped to catch their breath, to "tell me more."

The object was to help them by letting them run through all their objections and negatives, their justifications, rationalizations for the position and or opinions they held or hold.

Often when that point was reached the signal would be just what you pointed out: that they start to explore more productive options often obvious (but not to them initially) in the relationship with the person, you, they are engaged with.

I always thought of it as "my favorite auntie" conversational method. My favorite auntie, when I was growing up, would listen to me and no matter how outrageous I might be in my own viewpoints, would simply nod and ask me to continue, "tell me more about this," or "so what else have you discovered?" and other simple "door openers." Just invitations to me to continue to spew until I was thoroughly done and ready to expand my horizons a bit,

It took her a little time, but I can see (and later discovered professionally) that it was very effective in helping me grow and learn.

I do so wish all my friends had this skill (selfish me ) so I could be listened to in this way, and continue to grow and learn.

I wonder if H, the person you are discussing might not benefit, and coincidentally yourself in your AND horse environment, by being heard even more. I can't help but imagine what might happen if a riding instructor of the orthodox variety were to discover the power of AND.

I had been feeling a bit blocked by the notion that if I were to teach riding again (which I now do) that I would teach only 100% AND philosophical methods and practices.

I guess someone listened to me enough that I broke through that blockage, and realized that the pupil will start where the pupil is, and that means, if they have been involved with horses for long, an orthodox viewpoint.

My pupil is proving to me that she can slowly open up to the concepts of the horse as teacher, even down to the horse communicating their confusion, pain, fear, playfulness, willingness etc.

I must remember also to listen to her when she expresses the orthodox horse handling rhetoric, as she does from time to time. One of her favorites is, "isn't Bernice just being lazy and trying to avoid?" Next time I will remember to listen more to her. To invite her to go from her point A, to the possibilities of point B, rather than simply telling her (which I now do) about horse confusion, unwillingness because of lack of connection with the rider, etc.

What a rich subject this is.

Thanks for your thoughts. You make me work harder.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Romy, I admire you for trying to explain. Where traditional horse people go I just don't go there! Mainly because i end up getting defensive which of course is what they wanted all along. On the other hand I find people with no horse riding experience are so open to what I do and love to engage with the horses in an AND way. whereas my more traditional horse friends are really uncomfortable with it and tell me i will get hurt or my horses will become out of control. I ignore these comments and now kinda find them funny as i know i am safer now than ever.

I do remember Linda Parelli saying when she was challenged about her work by a 'traditionalist' who had nothing but criticism for her way of doing things...'....and how long have you been studying natural horsemanship/Parelli '(substitute any system here). Of course the person in question had not at all studied the programme/philosphy and had very little knowledge of it at all.

I have since used this myself and it does work as it seems to stop people in their tracks as they realise for themselves they are only reacting to what they are conditioned to believe but not on any real experience and you can of course remain polite.

Can you share how, in those instances where you used this response, they indicated they understood they were only reacting, but not based on any real experience?

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Hi Donald,

Well because the answer is always that they have not studied at all the system they are objecting to so obviously they can have had no actual experience of it.

I notice that this type of question causes people to stop critisizing and of course i realise i may have generalised but do you understand what i mean?

Fiona

Yes, of course. I'm always looking for ways to better present the AND philosophy. Thanks.

My tendency is to encourage them to criticize, in as long a diatribe as they wish and I can encourage. My objective is summed up in the follow:

Until the others' objection bucket is completely empty, there is no room for my response.

If they talk themselves out completely they have nowhere else to go but to listen. In fact, since I encourage them to talk themselves out it becomes a matter of polite social discourse to then hear me out.

As a practical matter I've noticed two things. Once they have run out of opinions to voice, they will listen, and though they may think up something to say again inspired by what I am then sharing, if I repeat my "listening," encouragement either that time or in the future they will run down far faster and be much sooner willing to listen.

I guess what I mean by the bucket metaphor is that while their head is buzzing with their objections and formulating and delivering them vehemently they cannot hear me. Not really hear me objectively. And they may be embarrassed and made resistant by being made wrong ... that is having pointed out to them by their admission that they don't know the others' model of reference.

The second thing is that I've noticed on occasion very negative reactions from having pointed out to them, by forcing their own admission, that they are ignorant of what they argue against.

Unless, of course, that fact, their ignorance of what they argue against, is finally offered by them after having been listened to completely.

It may be that you are in fact listening to them completely and that that is a factor in their admission and hopefully their willingness to listen to you state your case for AND.

It's a tough call figuring all this interpersonal stuff out. Anything we can uncover that helps will, I hope and trust, bring a better life to horses now and in the future.

Although, I believe I've heard, the principle of The Hundredth Monkey was challenged by the fact monkey's from one colony indeed had been introduced to the other colony, the concept that an idea whose time has come inevitably happens more or less spontaneously in many places at once prompted me, when I first discovered AND, to look far and wide for more instances of people exploring similar principles.

And what did I find? A huge population of people exploring many of the same philosophical concepts.

I would expect, just as women's suffrage, when it's time came, and end to slavery, when that issue reached a certain critical mass in the public mind, humane treatment of animals, environmental conservancy, and more, the condition of the horse is an issue whose time has most certainly come.

And I note too that in each of the above instances there was considerable resistance from those that held the orthodox views of the time.

I hope that we can, even using AND philosophical principles themselves, reach out to those still treating the horse more as an object and welcome them warmly to the view that horses are living, feeling creatures whose nature, whose true nature, we are only recently beginning to study seriously and finding they are something different than we had supposed.

My hope for horses, I think, lies in two places, the innocent child I think all carry from the begging to the end of our lives, and the unique human characteristic I think of as "the feminine hand." I struggle myself with remembering to cultivate both.

It's relected in my thoughts as I engage Bonnie, about her halter for instance. If I find when I touch it she tends to pull away, and I resist, my hand has failed and is the oppressive hand. And I have failed the child in me that wants to play with the horse.

If I give with my hand though, move away to reassure her she has the right to her space and feelings about my actions, and then tease her back, even drawing more away, and remember to use prior cues to encourage her moving toward me, and tempt her with a treat, just as I would a child, and I am patient and tolerant of her being just as she is in the moment, and in her life, then my "feminine hand," has served me correctly. Only then can Bonnie and I stay engaged in joyful communion, and a rich and rewarding relationship.

Those are the things I want to make a place for in the mind of the other person who can't as yet hear me.

I wish I had more opportunities like those you and Romy describe to interact with people about horses.

I'm inspired to work on making that happen. Thank you.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

There are some very considerable points, well made throughout this post, and I do understand why the founders of AND prefer to allow people to reach their own conclusions and to grow through study.
I tend to add the http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com link to the signature of my emails, hopefully a few people will be enticed to click on the link and maybe mark to bookmark this site?

A lady who came to collect hay from me a couple of days ago said she thought bitless was dangerous and asked why I had chosen that path.
I said it would be easier if I had not first looked into barefoot and had successful treatment for my retired laminitic pony, as I would be blissfully unaware of the anatomy of the hoof and the health benefits of barefoot. However many barefoot sites link to bitless sites and I then read Dr. Cook's articles and followed the research of many other published scientists and evidences from archeological digs which pointed to the discomfort and pain which can be inflicted unwittingly even by well balanced riders. Since my horses are my passion I cannot ethically use bits or horseshoes unless research provides clear and unequivicol proof that doing so will not compromise my horses longterm health. I also explained that from childhood onwards I have often ridden bareback spontaneously and it is the trust and bond which keeps the spirit young and dreams alive. My old horse did do his traditional groundwork training, as well as schooling cross country and going National Hunt Racing, when a jockey picks up a contact it means GO.
My horse was very good at walking over a blanket, posting a letter, moving balloons and everything else the Handy Pony competition required with an eight year old novice child, in the same season my horse raced under rules. But the child did not pick up the rein and needed his hands for collecting and placing flags in gymkhana games.

I hope this lady will consider visiting AND because the principles regardless of religion encompass the teaching to "treat others as you wish to be treated", regardless of species.

As has been said, training and preparation must be key, if halt is not in place prior to riding, then no bit is likely to be succcessful.
It requires good riding teachers to ensure the rider is responsible for the rider so that the horse is allowed to be responsible for the horse.
If the rider thinks back up or halt and sits still and passive; then the horse is unlikely to think that race to a finish line is the question to be answered.

Susie xx

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Susie xx
http://www.flickr.com/photos/piepony/

Thanks for that, Donald. I love this, as well as what you wrote before about asking people to explain. I always tend to be too fast at replying, even when I try to do this in a nonargumentative way. What a great reminder to remain silent until I have really heard the other one.

For me this is not only important with the goal in mind that I should get them to understand something, but mainly because I had never realized before that I had not listened to THEM either. I had tended to see "Aren´t the tricks you are doing just nonsense?" as a prompt for me to reply something about my way, not so much as their way to express something about themselves. That maybe they really need to talk their fears and doubts through instead of just getting rid of them. And that maybe, if I want someone to understand my way of thinking, it is simply just my duty to understand his belief systems first - not only in order to help him change them, but simply as an act of interpersonal respect.

And here I am, always having thought that I was rather good at listening because in most situations I had not felt that urge to only listen in order to find the first possible point to jump in with my own experiences or believes and tell them something about me, so my conversations with my friends have always been 75% about them. And now I realize that when it comes to horses (or more specifically: training systems), I have still been acting so poorly in that aspect.

Can´t write much now because I am on a conference trip, I just wanted to say THANKS! This will help me a lot.

Hugs,
Romy

Oh how I wish I could follow this effective-communications rule myself all the time. How very often I find myself doing exactly as you describe, jumping in with commentary and my defense of my position or opinions. I think it's hard work to communicate well and effectively. And unless we had parents or other significant caregivers in our lives that modeled it even the information about it is hard to come by.

I understand there are some cultures where this is a common mode of of interpersonal relationships. I think some tribe or tribes of New World aboriginals in the Americas had such a system. One I can think of is The Talking Stick. In conference a group passes a special stick, and while the person holds that stick only they may speak. Then they pass it on when they are done.

I wonder how very often we sabotage our own efforts by not hearing the other person out.

I know with Kate sometimes I catch myself interrupting when I should be listening. We are so sensitive to each others' internal state that usually I can catch her response, and it hurts to see I have failed to be decent and responsible in communication. I try to correct that when I catch myself.

Not everyone will respond well to such open communication, but most people do.

Hope you trip is going well.

And that your hand is healing up nicely.

Bug hugs back to you,

Donald

PS - And I believe that it's an AND principle, even an axiom, that we are richly rewarded by listening to our horse until he or she has been completely heard. Now if only I could remember that when Bonnie is asking for her morning kiss and I'm trying to clean her and her mother's little paddock and stalls and get them their breakfast.

I was good this morning and stopped to give her the kiss she was asking for so politely. She reaches her nose up to mine as softly as a baby's touch. And is satisfied with her little kiss and then goes off to play with her mother. d

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I am loving your posts Donald,


I would love to be capable of following often my own advice, and definately would like to grow into following yours.
I think in my case, EVEN WHEN parents or significant others modelled exemplary communication and handling skills, I was too hasty to copy and just continue to jump in with both feet.
A placard on my work desk used to read "engage brain before opening mouth" and still I forgot to take heed.
Love Susie xx

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Susie xx
http://www.flickr.com/photos/piepony/

I have another interesting case.

B., also a traditional riding instructor. A very nice, emotionally sensitive and extremely intelligent person. Wonderful to talk to. With her the funny thing is that she never tries to belittle us in any way - it´s just the contrary, she often says that she was doing exactly the same with her horses and that they had almost completely free choice too. I have seen her interacting with her horses and dog and I do see some differences , but with her I never ever try to suggest that she was not doing just great or that there might be things to think over if she wanted to. Instead, when we are talking about our ways with the horses, I strictly keep to talking about what we are doing, without giving the slightest implication that what I am saying might have to do anything with her. And I am trying to communicate what we are doing through our actions instead of words. Words make her get into the "yes of course, me too" mode, but when she is watching us, it is completely up to her to see the things she wants to see and pick out what could be useful for herself.

I wonder why this all happens now, after I haven´t had much contact to other horse people for years. But oh, this is fascinating to see all those people´s different reactions and ways to deal with something that is new to them.

This summer I was at a stable that is quite.... orthodox so to speak.
The first time I was happily running around with Ruphina in the arena the word got around that "I'm only standing next to my horse! " and all the weird stuff I did. I didn't think the 'standing next to her' would be the biggest deal, but apparently it was.

There was this girl there, she had a friend who followed strictly Nevzorov, and the first thing she asked me "do you think we abuse our horses by using bits, would you talk to us if we weren't in one room and there was a way out?" By then I figured, by being against them, I won't have one feet to stand on when i comes to explaining what I do. So an open mind to everything.
I was actually really interested by how she does everything, what 'shoulder in' is for her, why there's no such thing as the shoulder out (which is not the same as travers as they thought) and we had lots of long (way to long, way to late but very good) conversations, I explained why I don't use a bit, why I'm next to her. Why Ruphina is allowed to say "I would rather not gallop today" and that I'm sure she'll do perfect later on (and she did).
She was really interested in bitless riding, but there was no time for her to get on to Ruphina and try what I did. I didn't want to try what she did, because I'm sure why it doesn't fit with me but I did some groundworks with the horse, who was amazing!
She won't try bitless on her own horse, but she will try one day on another horse that is trained bitless.

All I had to do was ask alot, make an open door for all her questions and hope that I could make myself understandable. Don't close up, but open up. As long as your strong enough in your opinion, it's no problem to hear an other is there? Same for her.
I hope I helped her with something, and helped her in seeing that her horse moves wonderful, also without her, the benefits of groundwork and of not pulling the horses' head.

I'm passionate, but also very respectful. I'll always say, 'It's not my thing" what other do and explain why, but will also always add that I understand their way of riding.
I found this way a great way for me to communicate

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kirsten
time is what you make of it