The Art of Natural Dressage

Edit by Romy: This discussion was split from my video topic: Titum, Summy and Pia videos


Romy, I was thinking about this some more this morning. I remember recently encouraging a friend to look at the AND forum to get an idea of what people do here and she found a variety of videos that were people's early attempts. Fortunately she also saw some of yours later that show more advanced training/skills. At first she had the impression that the horses were really not doing that well because she mistook these beginner videos for examples of good results rather than early attempts. Of course we and our horses are all a work in progress but I still thought it might be helpful to somehow distinguish beginning and more advanced training without going as far as having levels, just to show people what's possible. I wonder if there is some way to divide the video section or have some stickies or something like that. Don't know if this makes sense.

I think that is a good idea. Perhaps some on this groups could submit movies in a thread that we would like to see in a sticky. These would be good examples of what can be accomplished with little pressure!

Great idea! (of course, I am not a Mod )

Ivy

_________________
http://www.ivyshorses.com
Blog: http://www.EquestrianHarmony.wordpress.com

Actually I would not like to divide the videos in good and not so good (or more or less advanced) videos for several reasons.

Most importantly, I find it very hard to decide what is advanced and what is not. The goal of AND isn´t as simple as getting the most spectacular-looking exercises. There are videos that show rather basic exercises, but personally I would judge them as very advanced in a way. An example are the videos that Jocelyne posted recently. For me they are very, very much advanced, simply because she is really asking her horses to do things instead of demanding and she rewards them so wholeheartedly. In terms of developing the horse´s self-confidence I think her work is way more advanced than that of some more professional trainers who might show more difficult or more technically advanced exercises but basically just make their horse do what they want.

And who decides what is "little pressure"? When I watch some videos, the pressure used there is much more than I would ever want to use for my horses, but others comment on the same videos saying that they are so fascinated how the horse does everything for his human just because of the lovely relationship and without the human using any pressure.

Or take my videos for example: some people like them because the horses are motivated to do things on their own, whereas others´ opinions about the same videos range from totally uncontrolled and chaotic to outright dangerous, because Titum rears next to me or even behind my back without me giving a cue. And in many cases I am giving a cue and the horses offer something completely different instead. Is that advanced because the horse is the master of his own training? Or is it very unadvanced because I am not even in control over their behaviour?

Besides that, we already HAVE videos showing AND work: If people want to see examples of training that actually represents AND to get an idea what this is all about, then they can simply watch the "official" AND movies that Miriam, Bianca and Josepha made last year. And they have their own Sticky already.

But of course I can´t decide this alone, I will ask the other moderators about their opinion.

Birgit, I understand your point, but I agree with Romy.

One of the things that is amazing to me about my own journey with AND is that the farther in I go the less focused I am on what looks sophisticated from the outside and more how the communication is working on the inside.

So I find myself completely unsure about how to characterize 'advanced' work.

But I can make some suggestions of things to look for in videos that I have watched (and I must admit that I'm waaaaaay behind, so I'm going to slight newcomers unintentionally!). But by way of a place to start:

In addition to the wonderful AND videos that Josepha, Bianca, and Miriam have shared...

• Romy's videos are marvelous to me because they catch her commitment to inviting her horses to decide what they want to offer. I think she does this brilliantly.
• Karen's videos are exquisite in their focus and understanding of horse physiology, their specificity. and, though she would argue it, I think! , their patience. They are simultaneously so giving and so focused.
• Glen's are glorious celebrations of horse and human co-delighting each other.
• Brenda's are superb demonstrations of the power of first-rate clicker training and deep understanding from a behavioral psychology point of view. (I learn enormous amounts from these in particular because I am always learning about how to be more precise -- I am the jazz watercolor person.)
• WindhorseSue does magical things with magical ponies in a world I dream of reaching some day...

Need to run, but there are many more, I know...

My point is, though, that different videos show us different things.

Best,
Leigh

PS: Beyond that, for me, anyway, the journey has become internal and personal enough that I don't think that videos are necessarily the best tool to introduce people to why AND is important -- it's too easy, I think, for this to just look like tricks on a video. And for me that couldn't be farther from the truth. Hope that makes sense!

_________________
"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com

Romy and Leigh,
I agree that "advanced" and similar terms are not very fitting to describe what someone is doing with their horse AND style, just couldn't think of a better word. I also share the concern about not having videos look like performances or tricks. Having said that I would have listed the same videos as Leigh (plus quite a few more) as wonderful examples that I find very inspirational, motivational and uplifting to watch. And it is so true that every horse/person team has different strengths that all the rest of us and visitors to this forum learn from.

Leigh, I think what role videos play for someone to learn about AND might be partly a matter of primary learning style. More intellectual types might benefit more from discussing ideas or reading books, but many people who are drawn to horses have a very hands-on kinesthetic or visual learning style and they will notice subtle things in body language of both people and horses that help them when they see videos. Myself, I often notice details only after they have been pointed out to me. To me it's all about making the videos and all the other resources that we all find really helpful easy to find, just like the stickies.
I have seen several popular trainers who mostly show off the "cool" stuff, just saw some videos of trick riding this morning that looked dramatic and definitely required "advanced" skills from the riders, but the lack of concern for the horses' well-being was very sad to see.
I guess I don't see showing off as much of a temptation here, at least not in an unhealthy way.

I absolutely agree with you re: learning style Birgit -- and am in no way meaning to bash either the sharing of videos! (I don't think that was what you were reading, but want to make sure I say it aloud so no one might think that's what I meant. ) I do love the videos, and have learned lots from them, I just have learned to be careful about when/how I use them as a tool, especially with someone who isn't thinking this way -- it's really easy to look at a video and see only what you think you will see. (Positive or negative.)

As I've been thinking about this conversation, it's occurred to me that it's kind of like going to the doctor. How, you ask? Well...

There isn't one "medicine" for all "illnesses" -- thinking of AND as a potential curative for how people might think of their relationships with their horses (and I know that this is a bad analogy in many ways, but heck, it's the one that occurred to me... ) there isn't one "cure."

If we go to the doctor because we're uncomfortable, she will ask us what's hurting, what we want to make feel better. Based on that, she will prescribe treatment.

Maybe this is the way to invite people in to look at videos here. What is it that they want to make better about how they engage with their horse?

Is it finding the courage to let a horse do exactly what he or she pleases?
Is it finding gentle ways to ask for specific movement?
Is it finding ways to just be playful -- or even simply be with our horses?
Is it understanding what a leg yield looks like when done correctly?
And so on...

Maybe that's a beginning of how we might point people to videos -- I find myself naturally doing this even with my husband when I see a video I think is amazing -- and I'll point things out as it's going.

So -- maybe a way to do this without layering a hierarchy of achievement on this (in large part because I truly don't know how we'd do that, as Romy articulates so well) would be to create a sticky thread where people are invited to share the links to the videos from AND'ers that they most love, along with a description of what they see in the video that catches their attention.

Beyond that...
I didn't mean to suggest for even a second that people creating videos here were likely to show off -- in my experience, the opposite is true almost unilaterally, with people doing amazing things and then spending most of their time apologizing for the one thing that happened in the way they weren't satisfied with -- generally the thing they feel THEY did wrong, not their horse!

What I was trying to articulate is that I think one of the challenges of AND is that it isn't about the kind of videos that you were watching this morning -- trainers showing off cool stuff to impress people. (Am not saying you think that, just trying to grope towards explaining what I'm thinking...) BUT it's what people are used to, especially when watching something that's supposed to convince them to try a certain training style.

And because of that, videos without the context of the philosophy aren't necessarily that helpful for someone who is just coming to AND, regardless of their learning styles. If you don't understand what the goals of AND are, watching any video that doesn't have the flash you expect (whether that's an Olympian riding a dressage test or someone riding without bridle, etc.) is going to be disappointing.

And, ultimately, while being open and inviting to folks who are interested is really important to the ongoing health (and core mission, I think) of AND, there is a fair amount of contentment in the faith that people will find us as they are ready to.

So...all that said, I personally think that the idea of inviting everyone to share a link to an AND video that they personally found helpful and/or interesting and/or inspiring, along with a description of why (the more detail the better -- a really close analysis would be really helpful, I think) could be a great tool for us and for those who might stop by, wondering what this is all about.

Because that way we each can honor the pieces that we find the most exciting, without there being a "THIS IS SUCCESS" message on one set of videos that trump all of the other ones. And people can begin to watch while getting a sense of why others here think that this particular video is so cool, so they can begin to understand the philosophy even as they see the video.

Would that feel helpful?

All the best,
Leigh

_________________
"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com

Excellent!

That sounds great to me, and I think most of us have been trying to do that all along, but it is good to be more intentional about it.
And, by the way, when I said I don't see showing off as a temptation here, I was trying to say ( I guess a little too indirect ) I don't think people need to be shy about what they do well since the purpose is to help others, both people and horses.

I have split the last few posts from my video thread so that also people who are not interested in our videos will have a chance to follow the conversation.

What a wonderful idea, Leigh - I am all for it!