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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:44 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:20 pm
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Location: Bend, Oregon, USA
Hi ANDers,
One of our friends in the DR has a young pinto mare who is not moving right. There are no qualified vets in her area to advise. Would it be possible for you to look at the vid and perhaps give your thoughts? Below are pics of her posture and hooves as well. It is a very wet, hilly climate there. She would like ideas about what might be wrong and how to help.
Thanks,
Kali

Sheeba video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsiOncKplZM

Hoof/posture photos:
http://ponypros.net/sheeba.php

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:49 am 
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At first glance the problem seems to be located at the withers and the shoulders. But looking more closely, it looks like her pelvis is completely crooked.

Did she have a foal, or has she been ridden extensively in a draw rein (to young)? Or did she have an accident where she fell really hard? Maybe she had a very narrow saddle on to much to the front for a long time?

She seems to be in a lot of pain. There is no connection between forehand and hindquarters because she can not somehow tuck her pelvis by engaging her abdominals, which would result into her nuchal ligament lifting the top neck muscle and withers, freeing poll and shoulders. Instead, the opposite happens. Her withers dissapears and she leans completely on her locked shoulders.
I would certainly not let her canter on the lunge, nor even trot. Just walk, halt, back a lot and a little yielding as was seen in the movie, but not as much. To free the pelvis and straighten it, but this can take months to years.
I would have an osteopath look at the pelvis asap.
Also massaging back and withers will really releive her but not take the problem away.

for bend it would be better to use a soft cavesson then a rope halter, as a halter will only cause the head to move up and away from you in the bend instead of bending towards you.

That is my 5 cents, hope it helps.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:31 am 
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I'm no expert, but to me it looks as if she is dragging her right hind toe a little, and as if she struggles to carry weight properly on that leg. It does not have the same amount of "pendulum action" as the left hind, the foot does not lift as much nor do the joints flex as much, and she is not "tracking" equally with both back feet.

Frequently, when moving, she appears to invert her neck as well. This is making a hollow back, or perhaps the hollow back is making the inverted neck action. Either way. she is pulling herself along with her front legs and not pushing herself from the back.

At one point in the video she was tossing her head with each stride while attempting to canter - ie. she was struggling to lift her shoulders - which indicates to me that there might be some problem with the abdominal muscle strength, the spine, the pelvis or her "straightness."

She is neither "through" nor "forward" - which may be due to her age because you do say she is young. It took me nearly 18 months to get my youngster to have some understanding of the concepts of through and forward.

What the cause may be is not something I can answer. I only notice these things because my mare has some of them and my gelding is young and has some of them.

In the case of the mare I am focussed on straightening her and teaching her to bend properly and stay off that inside shoulder and I am having some success so far.
With my gelding, again, I focussed on straightness, bend and "appropriate" use of various parts of his body. I also did a lot of work to strengthen his abdominals and build good muscles on his weak side.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:20 pm
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Location: Bend, Oregon, USA
Both of you have mentioned things I saw as well. I wrote the owner to ask how old she is now and when she had her foal. I think Sheeba is about 5 and had her foal at 3 (she got bred when a neighbor's stallion got in with my friend's herd). I did ask about having a bad fall and it's entirely possible given the geography of the area but the owner did not know of one. When we were there visiting last September, she did not move like this, but she did have 3 vertebrae in the loin area that stuck up more than they should. She has been mostly ridden in an Ansur Classic but lately, before her owner realized something was wrong, was ridden some in a Parelli Western saddle. Her owner weighs 110 and the saddle weighs 35, and Sheeba is about 14'3, so weight should not be a huge issue, but she should definitely not be moving like that...

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:50 pm 

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Location: Western Cape, South Africa
Has anyone thought to check her teeth?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:15 pm
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Location: Georgia (USA)
My first thought: Gah! She moves like Diego! (except his canter is different)

kvanagas wrote:
When we were there visiting last September, she did not move like this, but she did have 3 vertebrae in the loin area that stuck up more than they should.


!!!!! :ieks: Kali... Diego has the same "bump" thing and if you pop over to my journal I did a whole shpeel recently on what we discovered after I got a chiropractor to do an exam on him for the first time, complete with a few pics. Granted I realize Diego's bump is much more noticeable than this mares and he has had it for probably 8+ years, but the chiropractor called it a subluxation and classified it as an "injury" to the spine. Apparently the associated pain of not having it taken care of has spread to his pelvis and croup and he's developed 3 pinched nerves and the rump muscles eventually have just atrophied. :sad: He also has a crooked pelvis (due to compensating?).

Of course all of his problems are severe because for years I never had anyone look at them. :blush: still, my point is I vote: PAIN in this video and would think someone with knowledge of spinal/skeletal and muscular knowledge needs to look at her. :yes:

The info of the bump (even if you can't see it now) and the way she trots is just waaaaayyyy too much like what I have been seeing Diego.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:20 pm
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Location: Bend, Oregon, USA
Hey Colinde,
That is super interesting. Could you include a link from your journal that I can send to her?
Unfortunately where she lives in the DR it is not likely that she'll find a vet who knows what they're doing... So far, everyone has told her the mare is "totally fine," which obviously is not true.
Thanks!
Kali

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:02 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:15 pm
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Location: Georgia (USA)
kvanagas wrote:
Hey Colinde,
That is super interesting. Could you include a link from your journal that I can send to her?

The info isn't posted anywhere else online, so instead of a link is it ok to post the excerpt here? I'll do that and if you need more info (in a different format) let me know. :yes:

Diego has had a "bump" in his lumbar area for many years, I don't know when it happened (somewhere between 6 & 9 years ago), I just remember gradually it became more noticeable. It changes, sometimes it looks very prominent and other times it seems to smooth out a tiny bit. Mom & I had always been told it was cosmetic, permanent, shouldn't be something to worry about anymore. My trimmer was the first one to suggest a chiropractor this winter because of all the other problem signs:
severe muscle atrophy despite regular work
stifle & other joint stiffness/popping
extreme toe dragging
trouble holding hind legs out behind for picking
lethargy/not enthusiastic about movement - he was just complacent which concerned me. He's normally a very forward active horse.
tense neck/topline during transitions that I just could not fix with our gymnastic excercises


Picture of Diego a year ago showing the bump to an extreme and the severe atrophy in his croup area:
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/3 ... directlink

Here are various portions from my journal entry about the visit:

_______________________________
"[*]The Verdict (read on for details)
Twisted lumbar vertebra(s)
Several pinched nerves in Sacral area (severe Sciatica)
Pinched nerves caused muscle atrophy/limited range of motion from the lumbar region ALL the way to the tail :ieks:
Resulting hind limb, neck and jaw issues from compensating & pain

She came up and petted on him alittle, looked him over, talked briefly about his age and riding history. Then she watched him walk. Once I came back she immediately started working on his neck/poll area. At first Diego was giving me the wild-eye like “What are you letting this CRAZY woman do to me?! Can’t you see she’s going to pull my face off?!” I mentioned the knots on Diego’s neck as well and she went around and did that strange push-yank and I heard a POP. :ieks: I came around to that side and she pointed at the general area in the middle of his neck and said “That was his 4th neck vertebra. Another yank/push/POP and “That was his 5th…” Then Diego sighed and started licking and chewing and she patted him. He went from wild-eyed to placid in just a few seconds! :D
I’ve never watched anything like this so it was all very fascinating…

She got to the lumbar portion though and uhg… :roll: :ieks:
The lumbar bones are where his “bump” is. She said it was most likely a twisting accident – like a fall. I know he hasn’t fallen with me so it must have been a pasture incident. 4 or 5 of the bones were twisted to the left side of his body – the final bone was twisted to the right. OUCH :sad: She did a lot of popping, pushing and pulling on the bones and although it obviously wasn’t comfortable Diego didn’t react with the severity I thought he would. :huh: In fact she started pushing on the one area on his croup and he dropped his head to his knees!

Next we moved to the Sacral bones (the bump at the top of his pelvis/hip). Those were misaligned for sure. She taught me something very interesting: watch each hip bone as he walks. The right has a circular motion with a nice dip. The left does not (even after alignment) finish it’s full range of motion and does not get the nice dip. After her pointing it out I could really see the difference. Basically everything from the lumbar bones (bump/injury) back was screwed up. She said he had MULTIPLE pinched nerves and over time nerve sensation and bloodflow had been greatly reduced through his topline. Also range of motion, she said eventually this would have crippled him from losing range of motion of his hind-end. :sad: She showed me how to tell that his “hamstring” muscles are very underdeveloped compared to the outside muscle on his hind legs.. .easy to see now that I know what I’m looking at. She does not seem one to say anything casually, nor play something up so her comment “It’s by the grace of God and Diego’s own willpower that you still have a mobile horse.” was pretty strong.

She made a point that riding with his spine like this for so many years only added to the pain, I’m very lucky he’s been so kind to me. Her words. This brought into discussion his previous “misbehavior” being a known bucker by his previous owner and with me later down the road, especially about the left lead canter. Now this alone brings up an interesting piece of the puzzle: I have explored Diego’s laterality and onesided issue since I learned of it from Donald, and to date that was my only explanation for his bucking about the left lead canter: lack of strength/discomfort. Well the misalignments in the sacral (and coccyx) bones she noted he had a much more limited range of motion on his LEFT hip. That would effect his carrying ability and stepping under/pushing ability, yes? She confirmed the thought. So I then explained how we had been told when we got him his straighter stifles were big conformation faults and would probably break down sooner. Once he had trouble maintaining the left lead, at 10 years old, Mom had a specialist vet treat the left stifle itself. We have always said it was the stifle that was the problem. She shook her head a bit and commented “I don’t think horses were placed on this earth with as faulty “parts” as most people think – or else they would not have survived this long. Currently though most vets are pushing treatment of symptoms and pain medications, instead of finding the root of the problem. It sounds corny but everything IS connected so to speak. “
[....]
While we watched Diego muse over why I’d turned him out without doing tricks, he decided to do everything by the book as far as showing relaxation. The only thing left was laying down and falling asleep. She suddenly commented: “Huh. He doesn’t open his jaw all the way when he yawns, I should have checked that.” I asked if she wanted me to go get him and upon confirming that he’s not hard to catch I called him back. D whipped his neck around like “OH! You didn’t forget!” And excitedly ambled to us. She felt around his jawl and said the lower is sticking out alittle more and crooked on one side. She moved things around alittle and then popped him on the side of the head with that little hand tool she uses. She said he should be more comfortable after that and the misalignment could have been traced back from his hind end being out and all the bracing/stiffness in his neck area.
______________________________
So to sum it all up - this had happened to D over a period of years after not having the bump looked at. It happened gradually though so I really didn't see how severe the changes were. It's only been in the past 3 years that the muscle atrophy really took ahold and he started toe dragging this past year.

In his case the injury not only meant the spine had been compressed but the lumbar vertabre had been twisted in different directions.
His pelvis was crooked as well... is crooked. Unsure if it was a direct result of the injury or formed later due to pain from the injury.
His stifles have recently started popping because he's been compensating for this lack of range of motion for so long it's affecting the rest of his body.
Neck was out of alignment due to bracing.
JAW was out of alignment due to possible bracing of the neck constantly (especially when I still used a bit).

I don't know what to advise the girl in, I know exactly what it's like to have vets all around that are NOT forward thinking in treatment! We were just doing what the vets said, treating the hocks, stifles etc all these years. :roll: I would honestly suggest a chiropractor or maybe even massage therapist for helping to figure out the problem and make a plan to get the mare more comfortable. Are there any in her area at all?
I have been warned with D that only treating the bones and not addressing the soft tissue around the bones (massage etc) will turn into a never ending battle, so I'm looking into possibly learning massage myself for D's benefit.

BTW, I'm not knocking anyone else's suggestions of things to check or gymnastic work, I just found this SUPER ironic considering what I've been dealing with for the past 10 days. Hope some of this might be helpful... the mare carries an expression like she wants to perform well, but something is hard for her or stopping her.

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There's no more looking back - no more grey skies black.


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