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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:10 am 
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Location: Quebec, Canada
Just a thought, this summer there are so many mosquitoes and knowing that the WNV has now reached my area, I would just die knowing that I could have protected my horse should he die of this, especially since the vaccin is available.
I only vaccinate my horses for rabies (they are outside 24-7 in the summer and are sometimes in contact with certain animals that are carriers), tetanos (Corado is always getting some kind of puncture, minor but still) and WNV (mosquito epidemic in Quebec).
Corado has received his vaccins for the last 4 years and he takes it well. Magik did have a small reaction the first year but this year, no reaction whatsoever.

If the risk wasn't high, I wouldn't have them vaccinated but unfortunately, it is. And I don't want to take the risk.
So...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:37 am 
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We just had our first WNV death of the year in California... :sad:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:28 pm 
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Location: Quebec, Canada
Quote:
We just had our first WNV death of the year in California
Yeah I read this in horse.com
Isn't it scary!!

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 Post subject: New info on vaccinating
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:39 am 
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New Information on Vaccines for Animals
4-08-2009
____________________________________________________________________

Dr. Jean Dodd's NEW vaccine protocol
PERMISSION TO CROSSPOST

Dr. W. Jean Dodd's vaccination protocol is now being adopted by ALL
27 North American veterinary schools. I highly recommend that you
read this. Copy and save it to your files. Print it and pass it out
at dog fairs, cat shows, kennel club meetings, dog parks, give a copy
to your veterinarian and groomer, etc., etc. Get the word out.

Hi everyone.... THIS is wonderful news, that the veterinary schools
are now going to be teaching that over-vaccination of pets (once a
year "boosters") is not only unnecessary, but in some cases can be
harmful or deadly! It has information for both dogs and cats. There
still is an ongoing study regarding the Rabies vaccine. Most states
now allow (reluctantly) 3 year Rabies, but the study is collecting
data on whether or not even that may be too much. They are looking at
8 or 10 year Rabies! I hope you have all stopped having yearly
boosters for your pets. If you're concerned with immune levels, have
the vet run a Titer test. THEN and only then, if the levels are below
acceptable, should you have a booster. After all, when is the last
time you had a "booster" for smallpox, or whooping cough, or anything
else you had shots for as a child? Immune systems work the same in
all mammals, and the concept that pets have to have yearly shots
doesn't make any more sense than if you had have shots every year. If
mammal's immune systems were that weak in fending off these things,
all of them, us included, would have been extinct years ago!

VACCINATION NEWS FLASH

I would like to make you aware that all 27 veterinary schools in
North America are in the process of changing their protocols for
vaccinating dogs and cats. Some of this information will present
an ethical & economic challenge to vets, and there will be skeptics.
Some organizations have come up with a political compromise
suggesting vaccinations every 3 years to appease those who fear loss
of income vs. those concerned about potential side effects.

Politics, traditions, or the doctor's economic well being should not
be a factor in medical decision.

NEW PRINCIPLES OF IMMUNOLOGY

"Dogs and cats immune systems mature fully at 6 months of age.
If a modified live virus (MLV) vaccine is given after 6 months of age,
it produces an immunity which is good for the life of the pet (i.e.: canine
distemper, parvo, feline distemper). If another MLV vaccine is given
a year later, the antibodies from the first vaccine neutralize the
antigens of the second vaccine and there is little or no effect. The
titer is not "boosted" nor is more memory cells induced."< BR> Not
only are annual boosters for parvo and distemper unnecessary, they
subject the pet to potential risks of allergic reactions and
immune-mediated hemolytic anemia. "There is no scientific
documentation to back up label claims for annual administration of
MLV vaccines." Puppies receive antibodies through their mother's
milk. This natural protection can last 8-14 weeks. Puppies & kittens
should NOT be neutralizing the vaccine and little protection (0-38%)
will be produced.

Vaccination at 6 weeks will, however, delay the timing of
the first highly effective vaccine. Vaccinations given 2 weeks apart
suppress rather than stimulate the immune system. A series of
vaccinations is given starting at 8 weeks and given 3-4 weeks apart
up to 16 weeks of age. Another vaccination given sometime after 6
months of age (usually at 1 year 4 months) will provide lifetime
immunity. When you neutralize the vaccine little protection (0-38%) will be
produced. Vaccination at 6 weeks will, however, delay the timing of
the first highly effective vaccine. Vaccinations given 2 weeks apart
suppress rather than stimulate the immune system. A series of
vaccinations is given starting at 8 weeks and given 3-4 weeks apart
up to 16 weeks of age. Another vaccination given sometime after 6
months of age (usually at 1 year 4 months) will provide lifetime
immunity.

Source:

http://www.leadwithyourheart.net/Vaccin ... _Info.html

A to my view excellent website. I just do not agree with feeding cats and dogs vegan food.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:54 pm 

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:35 am
Posts: 135
Location: U.S..A. Michigan
Thanks for posting this Josepha! :applause: For many of us this is along time coming.

I am making some copies for some friends who have been interested in cutting back on vaccines but have been being intimidated into thinking that they are risking their horses health.

Leah


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:32 pm 
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Location: New York
Oh, yes, thank you, Josepha!

This is really good information, really helpful. And good news!

And this made me giggle:
Quote:
I just do not agree with feeding cats and dogs vegan food.


because it made me think of the scene in Shirley Valentine with the vegan bloohound...

(And I'm with you about vegan cats and dogs being problematic -- for both, assuredly, but seriously an issue for cats as obligate carnivores -- no argument there about omnivorous eating habits as there is in the canine world.)

But the vaccine info -- excellent on all counts. And truly great to see that it's rolling out to vet schools in the US.

Best,
Leigh

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:48 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:10 am
Posts: 184
Location: Barcelona, Spain
It is good to know we don't necessarily have to get all those wretched boosters all the time: however, the information may not be quite so straightforward as the website article proposes - here is a commentary by an American vet:



"I’m not sure about all the vet schools agreeing on a protocol. That would shock me, but it’s possible. As for the details you listed, it sounds like a mixture of true and false.
1. immune system matures fully at 6 mos-this is misleading. there is no special, discrete age at which the immune system is fully functional. puppies and kittens can resond to vaccines before 6 mos and can also fail to resond after

2. MLV last for life-sometimes true sometimes not. The specific resonse of an individual is unredictable as it depends on the competence of their immune system, the assthrough of the vaccine, the current antibiody status, and the secific organism involved. It is likley that a high percentage of proerly vaccinated dogs and cats will be immune for many years, maybe for life, for some of these diseases, but others will not, and the risks of leaving those individuals unprotected and of not achieving sufficient level of herd immunity to protect the population as a whole have to be weighed against the risks of the vaccines, which I still think are lower than this ost implies.

3. Boosters don’t work-half true. If antibody levels are high, they will diminish the effect of a MLV vaccine. However, if they are low, the booster will generate an anemnastic response and raise titers to protective levels again. And for killed vaccines (such as rabies) titers tend to last shorter priods of time and booster tend to be necessary.

4. annual boosters unecessary-ture. Now, how often should we boost to protect a sufficient share of the population to maintain herd immunity? I don’t think anyone knows. 3-5 years is a reasonable guess these days, but the studies to suport a defintive answer aren’t there, and “never” is clearly not the right answer.

5. allergies, immune-mediated disease-true, with the big BUT that the first are minor and treatable, the second are rare and linked to many other causes, including the infections we are trying to vaccinate against, and this doesn’t address the balance between risks and benefits.

6. maternal antibodies-yes, they do block vaccine efficacy, whih is why we give a series. It is impossible to predict what antibody levels to which organisms a given pupy or kitten will have since it depends on what their mother had immunity to, how well they nursed and at what time after birth, their own individual immune system, and other factors. Maternal antibody levels wane from the day they are taken in until as much as 20 weeks, and that is a reason to given multiple vaccines during this time, NOT to avoid vaccinating!

7. Schedule-I agre with vaccinating at 8 weeks and then a series of boosters at 12wks and 16 weeks followed by another about 1 year after the last kitten/pupy shot. I do not agree that you can clearly say never again. Titer levels would help predict the need for vaccination for a few diseases (rabies, parvo), but they are not well-correlated with protective immunity for others so even measuring them doesn’t tell us for certain who needs a vaccine and who doesn’t.

Overall, the issue is balancing the small but real risks of vaccines against the need to protect both the individual and the population for disease, and there is no one perfect rprotocol. As you can see from the references in my article on the subject, the professional organizations have tended to stress general guidelines and individualized strategies rather than a one-size-fits-all protocol, so I’d be surprised if the vet schools adopted one".

Point 4 is the good news, but the rest bears careful examining and comparing with the other article. Very hard to make these decisions in general, I find. At any rate, we're getting some good information here about the various options, and that can't be bad.

Rita

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:33 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:50 pm
Posts: 129
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Thanks Josepha, I always knew it was good to be careful with medications.

Nina xx


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:08 am 
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Location: Belgium
@ Leigh, indeed I keep reading that dogs would be omnivores. I am no scientist, but as far as I can tell, wolves and dogs are not far apart what DNA (I almost wrote AND ha ha) is concerned.
They even produce offspring that is not sterile but produces further. Examples are the saarlooswolf dog or our R.I.P. husky Mike.
And no one seems to suggest that wolves are omnivores.
Maybe Rita can shed some light in the subject? As she always knows how to cook up the relevant scientific aproach?

@ Rita, I agree with your vet, but I guess some sort of guidelines are needed. I myself think that every individual case is different. When the pups or foal have an ill mother for instance, a lot of the first building of the immunesystem goes down the drain. What is the important and most logical think to do is make sure a specie can feed and live in the manor and surroundings that is best befitting that specie for optimum health. I can not see any scientist argue with that. (But one never knows... ).

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:24 am 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:58 pm
Posts: 1622
Location: Western Cape, South Africa
This is indeed an interesting subject.
When I look at nature here it is evident that the cross breed/mongrel type of stray/wild dog does not have fertility type problems nor any of the hip/bone/immmune problems that we see in our backyard bred pure breeds. I think this is partly due to overbreeding of pure breeds (ie not enough of these dogs in the country to ensure that they are not related), diet and immunusation programs. The stray dogs are not immunised and eat a wide variety of what food groups they can find.

A most interesting book to read is "give your dog a bone" which emulates a diet that a wild dog would eat. Nearly all of the problems our domesticated dogs have these days is I believe related to their diet. 30 years ago we didn't have dogs with repeated ear infections, skins disorders, hip dysplasia etc. We also didn't have dried pelleted food!
Today our dogs are no longer fed from the human table with scraps but are given processed dry biscuits and are sadly lacking in real nutrition and cannot source what their bodies really need. A dog in the wild will eat berries, small rodents, fish, eggs as well as a variety of green stuff and anything else they come across that they consider edible!

I learnt the hard way with a highly bred dog and today I have a cross breed that is offered a variety of what we eat. His favourite treats are yogurt and apples! He still has some dried food but is mainly fed the same diet we eat and apart from his puppy jabs he is not innoculated and is extremely healthy.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:16 pm 
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Location: Belgium
I think the same Anette. Equihof sells books on raw diet and we sell a raw diet ss well. My way of feeding (not eating ha ha !) is based on Lonsdale's book. Ester from Holland who is also on the forum here to answer questions about raw related diets for carnibors has visited Tom Lonsdale at his house :)
I remember him once saying: icelandic horses eat fish when there is nothing else to find, that does not make them an omnivor anymore then it does a wolf for eating some berries... :funny:

Anyway, I really wonder about the cats and dogs on that website... sure their health would improve when given commercial petfood and then go to home made fresh food even if it is vegetarian but added with supplements. But still, I can't believe them really to be healthy... :huh: :blonde: not as healthy when given 'prey' diet.
It's fascinates me.. cn't get my mind around it

Ayway, to stay on the subject; I stopped vaccinating because Owen's liver could not take it.
So if he did not need it, why did the rest of us?
The last vaccine was I think 5 years ago. See no reason why to vaccinate... influenza they got anyway (and now that they haven't been vaccinated, they haven't had it?!) and tetanus shot humans get after the wound/accident/operation... so the same now goes for my animals.
Ino got one after the operation.

How do you all go about vaccinating?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:34 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:50 pm
Posts: 129
Location: Upstate New York, USA
The only vaccine I will make sure is up to date is rabies. I live in the country and there is wildlife everywhere. I wouldn't want my dogs to be taken away from me just because it is believed they might have contracted rabies. They wouldn't be put down but they would be quarantined. The same goes for my horses, but everything else I will booster when needed. I always have some tetanus serum in the fridge and some other vaccines that when there is an outbreak in the area, I can give it. I like to be prepared just in case and that makes me much calmer and I know I am not helpless.

About the dog food, I make my own. We do feed some dry but just to have it out. One of my dogs, Bruno, is very sensitive to commercial food. His stomach can not tolerate it. I give them lots of raw meat or slightly cooked when needed but mostly raw and he is doing much better. Instead of having stomach problems everyday, he has it maybe every few weeks. Which certainly beats everyday.
The same goes for my horses, I do not feed pellets, I mix the food and everybody gets something different. No such thing as one fits all.

Nina xx


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:18 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:02 pm
Posts: 1072
Location: UK Worcester/Hereford border
I spoke to my sis-in-law today, she will have her 'flu jab in a week's time as will her 8 year old son. They both have asthma, yet they use a steamer, eat lots of fresh veg and enjoy fresh fruit smoothies. She thinks it is better to have the vaccines offered by the G.P. than worry about dealing with the consequence of disease.
Both sis-in-law and child have had a lot of time from work/school, appear stressed, run down and have health problems. Neither are over weight.
Another friend will let her 12 year old daughter have the cervical cancer vaccine when it is offered, and will also have swine flu vaccine if it is available to her.
I found this website with lots of pages on cancer, vaccines etc.
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/
Lots of food for thought, although I appreciate a lot of the content is designed as advertising for "how to- health books."
Really interesting thread.
Susie xx

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:59 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:10 am
Posts: 184
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Josepha wrote:
Maybe Rita can shed some light in the subject? As she always knows how to cook up the relevant scientific aproach?

I'm sure there are people on this forum (step forward, Alex!) who are far more scientifically minded than me, and better cooks, to boot.

It seems fairly obvious that dogs do thrive on their modern diet and cat life expectancy has risen greatly over the last twenty years or so. (Pedigree dogs are more problematic, of course in their dietary restrictions and digestive problems - their life expectancy is less than optimum, too:
http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/pdf/ ... digree.pdf)

What seems to me to be more important to keep in mind is the deeply unethical nature of favouring carnivorous "pets" over the helpless domestic "prey" we can arrange for them to have at their disposal. The whole issue is yet another example of convoluted human thinking about how we relate to other species.

I would recommend keeping firmly in mind a long-term aim of not interfering in other species' lives unless some adjustment is absolutely necessary (reserving territory, for example), whilst in the short term doing our best for the animals for whom we are responsible, endeavouring to refrain from prioritisng one species over another to the utmost extent of our powers - even if this implies feeding a diet perfectly adequate in itself, but not exactly that for which a given species has evolved.

Humans manage very well with an adapted diet, and, as someone has pointed out, horses, too, are highly adaptable, even eating fish where necessary. Fortunately it is possible to approximate closely to a "natural" horse diet without taking an unfair advantage of other species to do so.

If it is true that some animals, including domestic dog ancestors, originally attached themselves to human encampments, it was to forage for any leftovers they could find - just as wild boar do today. There are reservations about this theory of the beginning on dog/human relations: there seems to be some doubt whether dogs were not, in fact, originally domesticated as sources of meat themselves: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/08/scien ... &th&emc=th
but there seeems no doubt that dogs do hang around human encampments and eat leftovers, so one could argue that they are eminently adaptable in this way.
Does anyone know what present day bred-for-meat dogs are fed? (I think they are mostly St.Bernard crosses) Presumably this would give us an idea of useful canine diet, but probably not one which would find much favour here.
Our ideas about canine diets, like so many other things, are dependent on context. I would suggest that the context in which we should examine "pet" diets is that of the cost to other animals who do not share in the privileges of "companion" animals, but have, instead, in our arbitrary human fashion, been marked down as "food" animals, thereby becoming helpless victims for humans' pets, as well as victims of humans themselves.
Rita

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:28 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 5:16 pm
Posts: 331
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Hi there,
it's been some time :) I actually found my way back to the forum, because I vaguely remembered this thread and for I'm having a hard time making a decision about (not) vaccinating my daughter!
I don't see a difference between animals and humans, so I feel free to stir this up again (I wonder who is even still around, nowadays :huh: and looking forward to meeting new faces)

As it goes I got my last shot in 2008 or 9, against tetanus (by a doctor disapproving of vaccination btw) and by then started to think about the subcejt and try to inform myself.

I find it really hard to know what to believe!
What strikes me is the fact that vaccination simply does not work for everybody, be it for a failure concerning the shot or the person/animal being "immune" to the shot.
I find it kinda absurd that people with bad immune system cannot be vaccinated for the risk of it, although they probably would need it most of all.
And I think it to be impossible to get immunity from vaccination, when there is no immunity after the "wild" illness - for example tetanus!

I just hope that vaccies DO work for some people and really fight epidemics in conflict areas. I found no evidence for it so far, that's it.
For myself I decided not to vaccinate myself again -and I'm strongly inclined to not vaccinate my children.

I'm excited if there's some new thougths from you.


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