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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:23 am 
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Location: Kelowna, BC Canada
Hello all!

And hello all who dare tackle this posting with some kind of response :)

I do not vaccinate myself, nor does my husband, nor will we vaccinate our children. We choose this because we understand that our bodies are the greatest living creations that exist and KNOW HOW TO HEAL and deal with the bugs, germs, viruses, etc that are so commonplace out there. We are completely SURROUNDED by the very things people are so afraid of... building our immunity NATURALLY, healthy, strong (and with common sense... do NOT go looking for rusty nails to drive into your skin- DO play in dirt where C. Tetani grows easily and get some NATURAL exposure).

THEN, it seems popular to take these natural bacteria OUT of their natural environment, toxify them and preserve them with the same chemicals used to embalm deceased creatures, and then BYPASS our natural immune defenses by injecting the cocktail of chemicals and half-dead bugs and then WONDER WHY we are getting sicker and sicker as the decades go by.

NOW- that's my soap box, not yours, and I certainly don't expect others to feel the same way I do. BUT, I am wondering about if anyone here does NOT vaccinate their animals? If there are any legal (?) issues, vets who will or won't deal with you because of it? Alternatives to popular vaccines?

The real alternative would be living under natural and ideal conditions (ie- 10-12 horses feeding off non-pesticide grown natural ground-cover in +/- 300 acres of territory).. but, that may still be a year or two (or 20) away for me :)

Your thoughts are welcome (to those who dare) :rambo:

Nicole

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:59 am 

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Location: Western Cape, South Africa
Hi Nicole,
A very interesting subject on which I am not educated enough to respond.
Here in SA it is law to have your kids immunised before primary school unless you can prove medically that there is a genetic reason not to.
I have just read some very scary statistics about the effects of immunisation and to be honest choose not to go there......
I do believe if my kids were babies and I had my time again I would probably have fought not to have them done. However what is done cannot be changed.
As for horses, we have here the ongoing problem of African Horse sickness which is very real. Fortunately for us we live in a free zone however if we choose to travel over the mountain the jabs have to be up to date. It is law to stop the spread. I don't travel my horse often but should I be in a position to have to move him/sell him, then he needs to be current. So yes he gets his annual AHS along with his equine flu jab.
I guess I should really be more informed about these choices and do seem to be more matter of fact "well it just has to be done routinely". When one is stabling at livery there is always horses coming and going and I am never worried about him contracting anything because he is jabbed.
I do think if I lived on a farm and had control over large pastures and the herd I would probably not jab.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:37 am 
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Location: Marlborough, New Zealand
Hi I am lazy when it comes to immunisation. In brief: -

My son has had all his jabs that he is meant to have. He is now 16 yrs

I vacinnate all our animals their first set, but then its up to them. I was told from the vet that if they don't have immunity after that, then they never will. I know that If I was to do dog trials or cat shows etc then they need to be up to date, But they are just pets.

The horses do however do get a tetnus jab if they get an injury that requires the vet to come out. Its a horrible disease and it lives in the ground.

Lucky for us in NZ we don't have anything that is too serious to watch out for ie horse flu etc.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:00 am 
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Location: Natal, South Africa
Hmmm. Interesting.

I have no choice but to keep Freckles and Laska up-to-date with AHS, Equine Flu and Rabies shots.

The area I live in is a "high-risk" area for AHS and Rabies, and because we have one herd of wild Zebra close by I have to be very careful about Equine Flu.

There are also other considerations - if I want to take my horses to shows, or an Equine hospital, or a different province, they have to have an up-to-date vaccination record before that is allowed.

So regardless of my opinions and preferences, they gets vaccinated every year.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:12 pm 
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hi there Nicole,

wow reading this i realised how much like me you are. i am totally against vaccination for myself and my children, and i have had to battle out the right not to in front of doctors just recently. it is not law to vaccinate, but they can definately make life difficult, cutting off all government help, and stopping preschool etc. i have reasearched this thoroughly, and have no doubts in my mind about my decision to stay away from the vaccines. chinese herbalists say that bypassing the mucas membrain will not give us any immunity from terrible diseases, but actually make us more prone to infections.

i am also not big on peniccilin and antibiotics, but i know that they have their place. they are neccesary in some situations, but for most of minor colds and flus they should be avoded, as they just upset the natural flora in the gut. i had to take my son to a naturapath today and put him on natural products to replace the flora in the gut, because for his operation he was flooded with both pennicillin and antibiotics,and his body was left defenceless.

i am very big on dirt, :funny: :funny: as most that have seen photos of my kids know. they eat food that they grow, we milk our own cow, eat our own eggs, we are lucky to have this. but having said this, and showing that i object to lead and fameldahide (i am so sorry/ worlds worst speller) being injected into my child, i do have a high risk to tetnus, as do all that have horses, and this is something that i have been giving great thought to. i will do some more reasearch soon and let you all know, but at the moment it is proving to be a big problem to me, and i have not got the answer yet.

as far as my horses go, i dont vaccinate unless i have to. horse flu being in this country is now a problem and the laws are definately changing, but as a rule i prefer to feed minerals and keep them up with herbs that they need and good feed. it is very hard though, because the things that they vaccinate against do kill, but do the vaccinations work? that is a big question to me, are they working? or do they cause more harm than good.

i will give you an example that we have had.

just after mums operation she needed to buy a horse that was a special needs horse. her young thoroughbreeds and warmbloods were not suitable for her personal horse for quite some time. so she bought a lovely grey mare. quater horse. mum bought her from some 400kms away, and after organising everything she was about to go get her, and we had an outbreak of horse flu. it was horse lockdown!!!!

knowone was alloud to move a horse, not even across the road. we went through long time of agisting her there till the outbreak was isolated and they allowd horses to be tested and vaccinated, then they could be moved with close veterinary assistance.

the agistment was costing enough to warrent this happening, so mum went ahead and gave the go ahead for the injectios to be given to the horse. after the time was over, and Cab had been cleared, we went to pick her up.

on arrival it was clear that there was something wrong. her head tilted off on a major angle, she was in pain, and appeared to have no vision and be dissoriented.

i burst in tears when seeing her. the vet was called, and it appears that Cab had a stroke. she lost all vision in one eye and most in the other. she has no sensation on one side of her face, and her face is dropped. the pain did eventually settle, but she remains in our turn out paddock with just two gentle horses, as she has never regained all of her mind. this was a reaction to the vaccination. her body could not cope with the overload of chemicals, heavy metals and forcing it to fight off too many things. she may have had a temperature that caused her to get brain damage, i dont know, all i know is that it is permanent. she will never recover. mu feels responsible, and will make sure that she has a home for life, but how horrible that it happend.

vaccinating is anyones personal decision, and i judge knowone, but it must be an informed decision. reasearch your area, the vaccine, and make an informed decision. it is a seriouse matter and it can have devistating effects either way.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:34 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:50 pm
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Location: Upstate New York, USA
I completely agree with being very careful what and how often one vaccinates. I have read a paper published my a vet that especially animals are over vaccinated and the problem is not so much the vaccine itself but the preservative used to extend the shelf life of the vaccine.

My horses do get their rabies vaccine on a regular schedule but everything else I have eliminated since I don't believe it is helpful espcecially after seeing what it had done to them one year when my 2 geldings received a new vaccine (by accident, the vet gave them more than I wanted) they had never had before. Both were sick for 2 weeks.

I do keep the tetanus toxoid handy just in case but am not just updating with the yearly booster just because it is time.

The same goes for my human family, I am not on any medication nor am I vaccinated against anything. When I have to see a doctor which is rarely, I get the eyes rolling but that doesn't hurt. I believe in creating a good immune system and the body can fight almost anything and what can not be fought will respond to common antibiotics.

I also grow almost everything we consume and our meat ( we are not vegetarians!) comes from a local farmer who doesn't believe in growth hormones or any other additives to make the animal reach desired weight quicker.

So this is fantastic to find other people who do and feel the same way I do and don't look at my sideways! :applause: :applause:

Thank you Nicole for being brave enough to start this thread and let me see that I am not crazy after all.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:41 pm 
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I'd probably do the puppy/kitten/foal thingy and that's it.
As my holistic vet thinks if you go the natural way with this, a small chance of natural death you must take into your stride.
So, 99% natural suits me just fine in this respect.

Adults... I stopped vaccinating years ago... for the reasons you all kindly explained.

For humans, baby vaccination is the law...

And for dogs and cats only rabies is, when the autorities find an infected animal, untill the 'clear signal' is given again. Maybe this one, I can understand.
Certainly after looking rabies in the eye...

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:52 pm 
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Okay, I do dare to disagree! ;)

As a disclaimer, I am at best a reluctant visitor to the doctor (I finally have actually started going regularly for the first time in 20 years, long story about insurance and oral surgery as to why). I think that antibiotics can be over-prescribed, and think that Americans' hysteria over germs (can't speak to what it's like in other countries) is really unhealthy for us and the planet in the long run, as the reckless abandon with which we tend to disinfect everything weakens immune systems and strengthens bugs.

(The UPS guy who comes to my husband's office contracted Necrotizing Fasciitis, commonly and eroneously known as the "Flesh Eating Bacteria" last week -- healthy guy in his late thirties, and in three days was in critical condition -- I don't know if he lasted the weekend. These are generally caused by a penicillin resistant Staph bug or Strep bug. There is concern in the medical community that these bugs are gaining steam because we are so over the top with disinfectants.)

All that said, I think it's important to differentiate between antibiotics and vaccinations.

Basically, when we put ourselves out there to engage with the bugs in their natural habitats, we are doing a kind of self-vaccinating. Which I think is cool as far as it goes, and makes total sense to me. All vaccinations do is introduce a manageable level of bug into our system so our immune systems can fight it off and develop antibodies and therefore immunity from it.

This is very different, obviously, from an antibiotic, which seeks to kill whatever the bug is.

I guess, while I understand resistance to human-created vaccinations because of the preservatives and such, I personally really worry about the impact of a generation that chooses not to vaccinate -- if you look at infectious disease vectors, when immunization programs end, those diseases tend to re-emerge and return to the levels they existed before the immunization programs were developed.

As people have pushed back against vaccinations, there have been outbreaks of measles, mumps, diptheria, and whooping cough in the US and various places in Europe.

And I think there has been a whole lot of scaremongering about the toxicity of vaccinations -- the two major ones that I'm aware of being the erroneous and now-debunked theory that the inter-special transmission of the HIV virus was caused by polio vaccines and the theory that MMR vaccinations cause autism -- the study that prompted this claim was recently discredited as well. Andrew Wakefield, the doctor who made the claims, is currently being investigated for misconduct, as evidence has emerged that he manipulated data and lied about the connections.

Again, while I understand a personal concern over possible negative effects of vaccinations (and like Josepha's naturopath suggests, any medical anything is not without risks), I am concerned about what I perceive as a misunderstanding about the nature of infectious diseases and the spread of acute herd infections. It feels to me like there is an "anti-science" move in denying all vaccinations. And I don't think modern medicine is, or needs to be, at war with traditional medicine -- I think the best answer is to take advantage of the best of all worlds, not make an either/or decision.

So -- on to horses. I do vaccinate -- I am required to by the boarding facility where my horses live. And I do because I believe that it is responsible of me to do so -- I have watched a horse die slowly of strangles, for example, and never, ever would want my horses to go through that. Horses not vaccinated for West Nile Virus about 30 miles away died from the ensuing encephalitis when they contracted the disease. And I feel it's my responsibility not only to my horses but also to the local wild animal population to vaccinate against rabies to keep the rabies vectors in control here. (And that's a pretty horrific way to die, too.)

An example about West Nile and vaccinations in California:
Quote:
In 2007, 28 cases of equine West Nile virus were documented. That compares with 58 cases the previous years. In 2004, 540 equine cases were reported, with more than 40% of those horses dying or being euthanized, Lyle said.


The drop in those number of cases corresponds directly with how much more prevalent vaccinating against the disease has become in California.

If I can, I'm all for treating things holistically, herbally, etc. But to me it seems irresponsible to not take advantage of the medical community's research into how we can stave off horrific diseases. And I don't think it has only to do with us and/or our horses -- what we do about vaccinations can impact the spread of diseases to others as well.

And I guess I don't agree with you, Nicole, that we are "getting sicker and sicker as decades go by." This doesn't jive with what I understand about life expectancy, general health, etc. (Yes, we've got some major correctives to do w/ diet and exercise issues, at least here in the US, but that doesn't reflect, I don't think, the impacts that better medicine have made on our overall health.)

Here's a New York Times article on health now vs. 100 years ago:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/health/30age.html

It's a very interesting read!

Best,
Leigh

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:02 pm 
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Quote:
vaccinating is anyones personal decision, and i judge knowone, but it must be an informed decision. reasearch your area, the vaccine, and make an informed decision. it is a seriouse matter and it can have devistating effects either way.


Exactly! And it is just hard to know what to do without a PhD education!!! Which I don't have...

The biggest problem with vaccines for dogs, cats, and horses is they are recommended EVERY year! Humans are only a one time thing at certain ages, etc. but even that may be scheduling too early/young and too many boosters these days. A friend of mine opted out of daycare so she could wait until her daughter was at least 3 years old to vaccinate. That significantly reduced the # of vaccines she will have to give her daughter!

Also, most dog vaccines are for diseases that are deadly only to puppies, except Rabies of course. So once the dog is an adult, they rarely die of distemper, parvo, kennel cough , etc. All my dogs get kennel cough during the first year and never get it again. So I do not vaccinate my dogs for anything except Rabies, and, tho it is illegal, I push that as long as I can get away with <G> as the Rabies vaccine is probably good for more than 3 years.

The way I understand it is that some of the vaccines NEED to be given every year to keep up the immunity??? I 'think'?? the flu type shots do not have a long immunity??? And young, old, or other with compromised health are more susceptible. A good friend lost a yearling last year to EEE (Eastern Equine Encephalitis). She had had her foal shots but then was 2 months late on her year old vaccines What they guess happened was that the maternal antibodies negated the foal vaccines, and so she was basically unvaccinated as a yearling, was exposed to EEE, and died. Very sad situation and a steep learning curve for my friends.

One that doesn't need to be given every year is Rabies as it's immunity lasts quite a few years. For dogs, it used to be thought that they needed a booster every year (which is NOT healthy!) and now each state mandates how many years between shots. My state is 3 years. I do not give Rabies every year to my horses, and vaccinate them about every 3 years as well.

I also give West Nile, EEE, and tetanus. I do not travel, or go to shows and very few horses come to my farm. I am not as familiar with horse vaccines as I am with dog vaccines, but I'm sure that over the years I will become more educated, like from this discussion, and may taylor the horse's vaccination schedule as I see fit???

Anyway, yes, this is a good discussion!

Brenda

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:07 am 
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hi leigh,

just want to let you know that i absolutely adore you, and the wonderful kind way you describe things. i dont normally step out sand disagree with people, but in the most loving and non judgemental way i would love to make a few points on my decision not to vaccinate.

Quote:
guess, while I understand resistance to human-created vaccinations because of the preservatives and such, I personally really worry about the impact of a generation that chooses not to vaccinate -- if you look at infectious disease vectors, when immunization programs end, those diseases tend to re-emerge and return to the levels they existed before the immunization programs were developed.


in the reasearch i have done into vaccinations, there are areas that have never had some diseases that they were mass vassinating against. they went into these areas and vaccinated healthy people. after this, the very diseases the they were vaccinating against emerged for the first time in their history.
\
a villiage in mexico was the best examlple of this.

i have found that it is the rise in the hygine levels that have improved the protection of infectiouse diseases, and i think that the re-emergence of these diseases are because of humans going overboard.

i made the conncection between antibiotics, penicillin and vaccination because it works on the same thing. people seem to work on a fad type behavior. they discover something useful and take it too far.

we descovered antibiotics and there is a place for it, but we now dose everything in society that has a cough or a sniffle and too many people are using it incorrectly. this causes a build up in resistant diseases.

i think that this is the same as the vaccination. in its place it is useful. there are immediate risks that need attention in some areas, like africa, and there is a place for it. but now it is a rediculose over reaction that injects children with terrible things to protect against disesase that the body needs, like chicken pox, to learn to protect itself.

we should not be vaccinating for everything there is, let the body get sick here and there, and help it to strengthen its immunity on its own. clods and flues are debilitating to those that are weak, so strengthen the immunity and treat the body with minerals, vitamins, herbs, whatever is needed to strengthen the immunity. a healthy child, even baby can breeze through a cold or flu, but if they do not have the right baccies in the body, and they are not healthy and strong, then it will be a problem.

in this rave i am meaning something quite simple. strengthen the body and let it fight some battles to learn to defend itself. dont just prevent the virus, it is like giving crates of food to the starving. that will do in the short term, but in the long term, teaching them and giving them the skills to grow food will be better.

my favorite music and story "war of the worlds." the aliens were defeated because of the germs that they had irradicated long befor. all we are doing by vaccinating against chickenpox and colds and flues is making everything sterile. so that one day when the bacterias become resilliant to it, our bodies will not know what to do

about the autism. i truely beilieve this to be true. i have a friend that has a child that was completely normal till the day he got his shots. that day, and it was documented via video, he changed and is severly autistic.

interesting thing to me also is the lack of effectiveness to vaccination. i was vaccinated as a child and teenager with the MMR vac. befor i was vaccinated i had no allergies, no asthma, no exzema. after i had all of the above! also, a i developed a terrible case of measels, and then not long after that, a bad case of german measils.

i have also found that they are saying that there is an out break to all of these infectiouse diseases since people have stepped back from vaccination. i have found here that there ois an outbreak and most vaccinate. my children are of very few that are not vaccinated, and all the children that have had whooping cough in theara have been fully vaccinated. this to me does not point at those that dont vaccinate, but puts question to me over that value of vaccination and i query wether it even works.

i have been told that i will recieve less government help for not vaccinating, and that is fine, and the interesting thing is that they say if there ia an out break (that is in fully vaccinated children) they will ask me to keep my child away from school. do they even understand the hypocrisy of that! ;) if the children that are vaccinated are gettiing this disease, why worry about my children.

it is a very hard thing is to work out wether it is right for you. we all have to make that decision based on the risk in our specific area. i dont question or judge those that do, and i hope that people also dont question and judge those that dont. i feel that vaccinating is only making diseases that are stronger are more resilliant and making people weaker as their bodies do not know how to defend thamselves naturally because injecting into the body bypasses tha natural route and prevents the body from gaining any strength that are long term. bombarding the system with so many synthetic viruses and diseases all at once can definately overload the system and i believe it definately does cause brian damage in so many cases, and this is why in the US a major percentage of the costs are retained to pay out victims of brain damage.

i am so sorry about how this sounds. i am not on my band box, nor am i meaning to lecture, and i value so much the opinions of others. you are all bringing brillinat information to the table. and i only write here as it is a subject that i studies very in depth, and i get alot of abuse from others over my decision. if there is am outbreak in something like whooping cough, that is everywhere here at the moment, people assume it s us that do not vaccinate that caused this. but when the information is gathered it is not those unvaccinated that are the ones causing this, but it is the ones that ARE vaccinated that get it.

there was an outbreak in strangles in the horses on our area. strange enough it was in the ompetition horses that were fully accinated, and our young horses and old horses, (all of them actually) avioded it. even though they are not vaccinated. just an interesting fact. i think that the vaccines are not effective anymore. and more and more we are weakening rahter than preparing for battle by focussing on strengthening the immune system, rather than bypassing it and suppressing it.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:54 am 
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Location: Kelowna, BC Canada
Wow!

What great responses! The can of worms is officially opened.

I don't want this discussion to be about "the fate of humanity" and all the pros/cons of vaccines. However, with such conflicting evidence in HUMAN vaccines, (with WAY more funding, research, studies, etc) I can't even imagine the standards for animal vaccines.

I'm too new to ruffle feathers here, and that is not my intention by any means. I have such a deep respect for all the members here and wish not to stir up such a controversial subject. I do not wish to get into a debate over 'right' vs 'wrong', why or why not. Those are personal decisions that YOU must research THOROUGHLY before deciding for yourself. I only wanted to see what others were doing, who do not wish to vaccinate their animals and if there were any options to look into.

Incidentally, if anyone cares to carry on the vaccine conversation on the 'why/ why not' level, I'll be happy to answer or discuss anything through PM. I have studied this subject intensively for several years, as well as through the knowledge of other friends and colleagues of mine who have been on this side of the fence since the 60's (not since the 'scare tactics' of late... which, sadly, they are not).

AND... I am not judging anyone based on their choices either :)

Thank you for your tremendous honesty!

What fun!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:59 am 
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hi there. :love: :love: :love: after writing my post, my computer conked out, and i had a bad pannick attack. (followed by another and another) i realised how misconstrewed my messages could be. i get so intense over this subject, even though my brain right now cannot think as i have been up alot of late.

i like this subject, but it is a sticky one ;) specially because it is so personal.

Quote:
I do not wish to get into a debate over 'right' vs 'wrong', why or why not. Those are personal decisions that YOU must research THOROUGHLY before deciding for yourself.


i think you said it right!!! :applause: and i hope :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: that i have not offended anyone in my outspokeness!!! :huh: i can sometimes write befor i think and i dont realise the way that it could be recieved. i only mean to give the information that i have, because i think that what i try to do is treat my horses as i would treat myself. i love them as members of my family, and i will give them the same attention to detail as i do my children :love: :love: :love: :love:

(i am sorry Leigh, it sounded in that post like i was really having a go, but i promise i was not. the tone in which i was writing was very loving, as i really think that you are a wonderful person :love: :love: )

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:32 am 
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Hi Jessy and Nicole:

I think I'm going to bow out of this conversation.

I've spent all night writing and rewriting a response to your post, Jessy, and just dumped the whole thing in about its fifth iteration, because I didn't know how to say what I felt without sounding insulting or angry.

Suffice it to say I categorically disagree with you! In my reading and research, the science is clear as to why vaccines are important and how they are effective.

And I guess I truly don't understand, if the argument is about strengthening the immune system, why vaccinations are seen as the enemy, as this is precisely what they do.

But, I don't feel like arguing, as I doubt any of us will change each others' minds, and I have neither the time nor the inclination to beat my head against a wall!

In answer to your point about vaccinations and horses and living conditions, Nicole, I'd love to have my horses living in "natural" conditions as well (whatever that actually means) -- but they don't, and so I do a lot of things that I probably wouldn't have to do if they were living closer to the wild. And I do believe that vaccinating is responsible, both to them, and to the horses around them.

Best,
Leigh

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:10 am 

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Location: Western Cape, South Africa
This topic is a hot one and each of us will have had our own personal experiences that lead us to believe what is right or wrong. There is plenty of evidence to be found on both sides of the fence. With humans and horses there will always be the one that has an adverse effect and although the statistics are low, they are there and very real. For myself, I am lucky to have been one of the ones that haven't been affected negitively by innoculations. However there are people all around the world that have experienced neurological problems from certain vaccines and over the years many vaccines have been withdrawn due to too many adverse effects.
When it comes to all drugs there is big money to be made by the companies and government kickbacks and they can well afford to cover up and pay out for their mistakes.
Sometimes it can take years before a drug is withdrawn, and for those that are affected by it, their lives will never be the same again.
Like anything in life, we all have to make choices based on what we believe to be the right thing at the right time. Thankfully here we are not judging each others decisions but perhaps can be openminded enough to realise that what has led us to believe what we do is based on what we have experinced thus far.
We are all responsible owners that care first and foremost for our horses wellbeing (otherwise we wouldn't be here). Let's celebrate that and accept each others opinions even if we don't always agree!!!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:03 am 
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my children are advised to use their words, i would like to use my icons

Leigh :pray: :love: :pet: :kiss: :friends: :love: :f: :giveflower: :giveflower: :giveflower: :giveflower: :giveflower: :giveflower: :inlove: :l: :l: :l: :l: :l: :l: :l: :l: :l: :l: :l:

morgan, so beautifully put :applause: :thumright: :bowdown: :f: :f: :f: :f:

and as for me, on this topic as i have upset people....... :blush: :sad: :giveflower: :l: :x :inlove:

_________________
just keep swimming, quote from nemo!:)
love jessy


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