The Art of Natural Dressage

Hope someone can help me Here is something from my diary:

Okay Today we went on a trip in the forest. He was very happy, and didn't look/feel lame in walk at any time. He was so happy that he started trotting all by himself! But I felt some lameness, and stopped him..... Tried again a little later, and it felt worse, so I jumped off So the progress didn't keep going.

I'm not sure what to do. The fact is (as I have maybe told before), that I'm doing his hoofs by myself (with some guidance from one I knew from NHE). I have contacted her as well, about those things written here - but I don't know if she refuses to answer me, because she has found out that I'm riding
Fáni's feet was very bad as I started, but they have become much better - near to what they should be. One day I did a little bit of work with the frog, that was correct according to the theory I have studied, but I found some bruise and a microscopic drop of blood almost in the tip of the frog. I got very afraid, though it almost wasn't noticeable. After this he was starting to be lame... I think it's strange, since the tip of the frog isn't at any time in contact with the ground? Anyone here who knows about hoof-anatomy, that can tell me anything about such things? Can it really be the reason why he's lame? And what can I do about it? Give him rest and wait?
I'm afraid to touch his hoofs again, though I know I've done lots of great things with them. The problem is, that there is no barefoot-trimmer in or around the area where I live - I have tried to contact the "nearest" one - but he won't come unless I can gather lots of other horses/peoples that he can visit - and I have tried that without success
When I'm moving to the capital in January, and bringing Fáni with, there are lots of possibilities to have a barefoot-trimmer to come - and I'll do so, just to check everything and so.
But now, I'm thinking if it's needed that I contact our previous farrier to make him look on his hoofs - and maybe help with the lameness if that's possible?

I really don't know what to do

Hm, maybe on all flat, hard surface it won't, but else the tip of the frog does get ground contact. Obviously in snow and mud one gets footprints of the whole sole. On a normal path through the woods, I would expect some twigs and stones for example making contact.


Could you take some pictures of the hoof and post them? Maybe some of the more experienced trimmers here can give some advice to you.

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Andrea
http://www.youtube.com/user/FinhorsesAndPinscher
http://basichorsemanship.blogspot.com/

Emilie, you'll want to have his history for any of our hoof people in AND you contact. Colic, laminitis, abscesses, that sort of thing.

His diet will be of concern as well.

I can't help but wonder if he hasn't had a puncture wound at the tip of the frog, from your description.

Blood by itself doesn't always mean bad things are happening. One has to explore and watch, just like solving a mystery.

It would help, if you already haven't done so, to consult hoof anatomy sources on the Internet, and read up more on how injuries, either from trauma, disease, or systemic causes, manifest themselves. Diagnostic work.

I'm sure folks here can help. To find them just use the AND search feature and key in the search term "hoof injury" or even more generically "hoof care." Hit enter and see what and who pops up in the search results.

http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/forum/search.php

Best wishes, Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I have a few questions, first what trimming methods are you following? Did you find the blood at the tip of the frog while cutting it or was it just there when you picked up the hoof? If you cut the frog to this point of blood-that would be why the horse is lame. As a rule I almost NEVER cut out the frog at the sides or the tip because it is very sensitive and it is very easy to cut too much. Can you post pictures?

If the lameness is bad-call the vet(one that deals with lameness). In most cases the vet can better determine the cause of lameness, take x rays if needed, deal with abscess medically and can offer a bit more diagnostic advise.

I say if you do not have any hands on support for your trimming that you should see if you can find a hoof trimming course or some type of trimming education. Most hoof trimmers need 3-6 weeks of courses and 4-12 months of hands on apprentice work under a senior trimmer before they are ready they are ready to trim horses alone. Every hoof is different and every hoof changes with time, so the trim you may have been doing a while ago may not be what the horse needs now.

I would look for a very experienced farrier that is open to keeping your horse barefoot if you can not find a barefoot trimmer. Most "normal" farriers have 30-50% of their clients barefoot and are not as against keeping horses bare as people seem to think.

Take care
Melanie

Hi Andrea,

Of course, the whole surface is in contact with the ground, if the ground is soft. But in the forest, and the places where we are riding, it's mostly a bit hard.

I'll see if I can make some pictures some time during this week!

Hi Donald,

I'm not sure what you mean - but do you mean I'm gonna tell everything about Fáni, his health and how he lives and so?

Okay, I'll see if I can find something on the internet.

Thanks for your help.

Best,
Emilie

Hi Melanie,

Thanks a lot!

It's Natalija from NHE who uses to help me with his feet. She's using the Strasser methods.

Yes, the blood appeared after cutting a little bit. I was trying to make the tip of the frog little bit lower, so it'd go down into the sole in the tip.
But how do you then deal with the frog, if it gets too high of big? Specially also on his hinds, the frog is very big, and near the heels it tends to cover the collateral groove - and that's not too smart, since dirt will get stuck. And it's also not good if it gets too high in the tip, so pressure will go right into the middle of the hoof?

I'll see if I can get pictures one of the next days.

Yeah, I could call the vet. I'm just a bit afraid of doing so, course I know she'll ask me who's fixing his hoofs. And she's very much against anything else than farriers with an education - she told me I should never ever use a barefoot-trimmer - and the fact is, as you know, that I'm doing it on my own, so I guess she'll probably get angry.

I'd like to maybe get an education some time - in barefoot-trimming. But the fact is, that I almost don't have any money. It's pretty critical actually... And another thing is that there is nothing like that near the place I live. But if I'll ever get money enough, I guess I'll do it. Unless I find a perfect barefoot-trimmer to do his hoofs.

But what I have been doing since I started, was that I posted lots of pictures, and Natalija told me what to do. I posted new pictures, - and so on. I also studied in the internet, everything I could find, and learned a lot from Natalija. After a while I could comment his hoofs on my own, and tell her what I thought should be done - and everything was right. So that's why I started getting less help, and sending her less pictures.

But a farrier doesn't use the same techniques - and that's why I'm doubting if it would be a good idea? But sure, our previous farrier wasn't against not putting shoes on a horse.

- Emilie

Today mom looked at him when he was trotting - and she said she thought he was lame on the right hind (the one I have been talking about is the left front). She isn't much into horses, but I'm a bit confused.. Maybe I can make a movie of him running, one of the next days, so someone here can judge it.

The frog naturally sheds to the height it needs to be-in all horses, pony's. Normally shedding completely twice a year or more if needed. If the frog is not shedding naturally you may have imbalances. It can also be high because it is because it is "reaching" out for ground contact. Once the frog has good ground contact it will start to compress, becoming tough and more dense-no need to ever cut it. By cutting the frog you are weakening the natural density and by going into the blood you have stripped away all the protective layers, so the horse will be very touchy. The sole at the tip of the frog is the thinnest part of the sole on the hoof- Only trim away any protruding bumps or bar in this area because you will end up with blood very fast!

There is only so much you can learn with online help with photos and judging hooves without watching the horse move is very limiting. There are many things you can only learn by doing (as with many things involving horses) and slight changes in the way the tools are held can change the balance dramatically, so I think everyone that is trimming hooves needs some hands on training. Some farriers and trimmers will offer personal advise and training for a lower cost than schooling...I have trained a few owners to trim their horses by bartering.

When a horse is lame it will compensate with the other legs, making it seem like the horse is lame on another leg/hoof to an untrained eye. Is there any heat from the legs or hooves?

The frog covers over the collateral grooves in the hinds? Sounds like you need to get someone in to help you trim.

Yes farriers do have different methods but the core principals of trimming are the same in some schools. Most well educated farriers are open to barefoot methods and can do them-some are against it and will not even try but I would not limit your choices for hoof care because of assumptions. I have been a barefoot farrier for the past four years and I have seen a quit a few farriers change their trim for the better, they still offer shoes but you as the owner can say no to shoes.

Melanie
www.healthyhooves.ca

Hi again Melanie,

Thanks for your reply. I think the method you use/work after, is very different from the one I have mostly learned about (Strasser)? Isn't that true?

When it comes to teaching/schooling I think there are huge, huge differences between the country you live in, and where I live.

I don't think there is any heat from his legs of hooves. But it's a bit difficult to judge. I found a wound on one of his hind-legs today - actually the one mom thought he was lame on. But it didn't look critical at all.

Why do I need to get someone to help me trim because the frog is growing a bit over the collateral grooves? Instead of judging me like that, it'd be more useful if you tole me why it seems so wrong?

Maybe it would make things more clear, if I told how bad his hoofs were as I started? It's almost a year ago since I started "studying" and getting help to start on my own. His hoofs were so bad, - and that's a reason why lots of things are not really "back to normal" yet, course everything has been very disturbed. To make you understand what I'm talking about, I'll show you what his hoofs looked like, when I started:





I get chocked everything I look at those pictures. And I think you'll get "shocked" when you see what I have managed to do with them.

This is how his body posture looked:


And this is how his body looks now:


I think I'm not the only one who can see big changes in his body as well.

I'll post some new pictures of his hoofs one of the next days.

This is what Natalija has just written to me:

Hi Emilie,


Well I can't help you too much with Fani's lameness since I too am looking for advice for my draft Lucy! But those old photos are just amazing!! So glad you are trying to fix them!! All I can do is to tell you that I know how you feel, as it is not always easy to know what to do!!! All we can do is to keep trying to learn more and go from there!

Brenda

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http://www.youtube.com/user/Lucy04574
http://www.youtube.com/user/Jack04574

Thank you very much Brenda! It's just the words that I needed to hear.. I'm very down, bad day at job, and all those things with Fáni too, and questions concerning NHE-rules (no riding) and/or riding. Sigh I just wish I could leave it all.

Give yourself up to time.

Your posts are fascinating. You dig for the answers, boring into the problem. Much as we all do.

Give yourself time.

The feeling, your wish, is the same I have. And while you are young - I am very old.

You may be sure, it's not going to change. You'll just get better at accepting it. What ever 'it' might be at the time.

Give up. Enjoy. Smile at yourself. Just as you'll smile back on yourself from your future, when you get there.

Enjoy now. Enjoy the moments. Leave a trail of joy behind you.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I am sorry you feel my advise is judging you, I am only going by what I read. The frog is indeed alive and has blood in the living corium....and yes it is possible to cut the frog too much to cause blood. If the frog is covering over the CG, you have a dropped sole, sinking coffin bone, dug out bars/impacted bars or major imbalances in the hooves or many other things could be going on. That is why I say it is good to have some one else take a look at the hooves. The before shots of your pony's hooves show classic damage from shoes, some white line stretching and in need of a trim a few weeks ago but I have seen worse. Good solid sole, nice wide frog and good digital cushions. Great difference with the shoes off in his body condition-great work!

Well the method I use is biased off of Strasser and is recommended by NHE, I use the EQ method http://www.equinextion.com/ and I have also trained with three other farriers including Ramey cert. insturctors. So I use a mix of what I know works from each method. I do not believe we have huge differences in the schools of thought regarding hoof care-horses have the same hooves all over the world. When you talking about true schools of though regarding hoof care, they all have the same goal and result from the trim should they not? Do what ever works for your horse. I would never say it is helpful for the horse to think "bruising and abscessing became normal things in this situation".

melanie