The Art of Natural Dressage

Lately I started wondering if the internet (and especially forums) also have a mental effect on the training I do with Blacky and Sjors. Not just on the methods we use, but also the joy we gain from training and playing together.

It's funny, because I only realised this when I compared the training we did yesterday to the trainings we did half a year ago, when I was still at the NHE forum. For some reason back then I always felt that I was doing wrong things when training, because we always seemed to be breaking one rule or another. Like walking alongside a road to get to the pasture: according to NHE you're not allowed to use a halter with your horse, but neither are you allowed to use a cordeo in a potentially dangerous situation, like when faced with traffic. So whatever way I did it, I was in the wrong. Same with foodrewards: I wanted to reward the ponies for what they did just like Alexander does with food, but according to the forum rewarding with food was also showing a lack of skills as when you were a real good trainer, you wouldn't need to 'bribe' your horse into doing the stuff as then he would do it for you alone. Same went for the cordeo: the cordeo was supposed to be the most free, natural way to train a horse - and while Sjors clearly disliked it and preffered to go naked (little nudist ) according to a representative I was wrong to think like that because a cordeo couldn't annoy a horse.

It was confusing, depressing and annoying, but I thought I could still keep reality and internet apart.

Only now I realise that I haven't been able to do that at all. Because the last three months we have been having more fun when training than the entire year before. While we still work at liberty, still use foodrewards etc. The only real difference is that the burden of being condemned on-line for making other decisions is lifted. And not just me; the ponies seem so much more energetic too, much more eager to experiment and they seem to love our trainings together better than the last year. It's not like they disliked training before that, but they just seem to be enjoying themselves more right now. And without all those rules training is so much more fun - and every single training we do is just so much fun! I've actually started missing the ponies more when I'm away only for a day, because I know that I'm missing out on a wonderful training again.

Maybe it's just me that is so influenced by a forum atmosphere, but it is a very strange thing to realise. And for me that makes it even more important to keep this forum a safe and fun place to be. Because even when its just me, it still shows that a surreal thing like an internet forum can actually burdern our horses through our own feelings. And that's the last thing I would want.

I had a very nice feeling few days ago... I was driving my car, when a horse cab passed by. The horse was white, with a white bridle, and the coachman was wearing funny blue frock coat. We have a Polish poem, titled "Magic cab", written by Konstanty Ildefons Galczynski. It is about a night ride in Krakow in a magic cab, with magic driver and magic horse. The "legend" says that he was inspired by one special driver, who used to often speak in poems. So now you can find such a cab here and there although in Krakow it is much more popular than here.
So, when I saw this cab, at the first moment I smiled like a child, because it reminded me the legend I was told long time ago. Before, when I participated more in the other forum, I would look for the horse's pain first, and I would feel bad that I have seen them at all. Of course the horse was not perfect, it was stiff, had a bit, his tongue was sticking out, etc. But it looked also very magical, with his completely white coat, and my first feeling was positive. I am sure that I saw the driver smiling! So now when I'm more on this forum, I'm just doing my thing, because I think that it's better, but without fighting with everyone else. I'm sure that my horse feels my attitude and we also are more happy to experiment. Now when she puts her ears back I don't think that I haven't understood some method or anyone, but I think how to change that and what to do, to have her ears forward she's not getting stressed so much, and she's offering more behaviours (a lot of new ones!).

The Internet has revolutionised my relationship with Zeno. I do EVERYTHING differently - training, feeding, hoofcare...

Of course sometimes it's because it has led me to books, DVD's and trainers. Yet, ironically I've become more self sufficient - I have fewer lessons, I balance his feed myself and I'm learning how to trim his hoofs.

I've learned about examining mself first - my motivations, ego and ambitions. That's made the WORLD of difference

And of course the support from people on forums can be amazing

Interesting topic Miriam!
Yes... I hadn't really thought about it like this, but I think that becoming less involved with online negativity has had a big effect on my training too.
These days, everything just seems to be right, and I can communicate WITH Sunrise directly, rather than running it through what I "should" be doing. This could be partly (or a lot) because I am becoming more fluent in the language. But it's also a result of me trusting myself more, and just being in the moment, without analysis. This is how I was with horses when I was a child.. but now with the power of so much better knowledge. So it's not that I've "learnt" to be in the moment. I've just relaxed and "allowed" myself to truly enjoy.
Cheers!
Sue

I also just needed to be somewhere I could be free to explore what all this means for me without having to be careful of what I say, or how I say it. Once I was accepted into the NHE school, I knew I had made a mistake. That was not the place for me. I would have been so restricted in so many ways. To stay there I would have had to give up learning from one of the only "real" traininers I know (as opposed to "virtual" trainers online) who can hep me learn classical techniques. Having hands-on help is very valuable to me, and I didn't want to have to try and explain my interaction with someone who uses bits, etc.

This forum gives me what I need. A sounding board, a place where I can ask questions and get real answers. I can ask "how to" questions. I can ask "why" questions. Here we can talk about classical techniques and we all know that we are adapting them to reward based methods (of one's choosing) without having to explain that, over, and over, and over, then get into arguements about whether or not a treat should be given.

On the NHE forum, one of the last posts I bothered to look at had someone asking for the umpteenth time whether it was ok to "shape" a behavior. In this case, it was about the ball game. They asked because, of course, you can see Alexander Nevzorov giving his horses treats, and the horses (especially Lippisina) actively looking for a handout. So some brilliant horse trainer or other says that giving treats is not the way to train. Some naive person asks, "but NHe has a link to clicker training. Is clicker training not acceptable to NHE?". Another brilliant trainer responds that clicker training is not against NHE, but that NHE does not use clicker training.

Another bright trainer of obvious vast knowledge speaks up and says something to the effect that you should not make a horse do something with food. That the idea is get the horse thinking and freely choosing to train with you. Of course, he does not go into details about how to do that.

That is soon followed by more sage advice from a school member, saying that it is ok to reward with food once the horse has done something.

So I think to myself...ah...I am using food to force my horse to obeying me .

Do they think I pelt him with alfalfa pellets mercilessly until he submits? That I douse any attempt that he express himself or think for himself by drowning him in a pocketful of oats?

No, I reward him with food, once he's done something. The fact that I click just before I do that somehow makes the whole process evil and coersive.

At that point, my head is about to explode and I have to leave before I break my computer monitor from beating my head against it.

Here, in this beautiful place, I can freely admit that I keep a clicker in my pocket and that I give my horse a pellet of food. Lord what a breath of fresh air!!!!

Amen!!

That must be something we have all experienced over there. I can't work up the energy to go back there.

My personal immensely frustrating moments come from reading about stallions and the evils of castration....Just plain stupid at times!

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Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing at all. - H.K.

Like I wrote somewhere else on this forum... Evita's response to me beeing at the NHE forum was rearing in front of me and swinging her hooves around my head.... this says it all I think.

I think its about beeing connected with your gut feeling. Sometimes it helps to read things to be able to explain this to yourself.. to put it in words, but above all forums or anything is gut feeling. I can say I can communicate with my horses and decide together with them what is best. After this comes knowledge wich you gather by sharing information and experiences. I see this forum as a place to exchange knowledge and not a place wich tells you what your gut should say.

A little story:
At the NHE forum I was told I let my trainer rape(!) Evita. To me this is the worst thing anyone can say. And not the person behind this remarkt bothered me.. there are all kinds of people in the world... but that people supported him. The remark was made because I described that my (Bitless Classical Dressage) trainer was riding Evita to show me the shoulder in or something and Evita started to do the Spanish Walk for he first time under saddle.
At NHE the conclusion was that Evita was in soooo much pain (with a BB with loose reins and only a little weight and leg shifting) that she cried for help by offering a Spanish Walk. Well.... you can see this was the reward winning example of mass hysteria. Because it wasn't about what was really the case but people found an ultimate "people binder", a shared enemy! Because at NHE Classical Dressage is openly judged as abuse, Evita must have been in pain. The strange thing is that for example one of the s NHE representatives is a member of the Classical Riding Club.
Later also Evita beeing ridden while 4-5 months pregnant became something to lay on me to give me a stamp "horse molester".


Well, during my time at the NHE forum Evita has learned nothing new in groundwork, due to the same kind of reasons Miriam said. My energy about doing it wrong etc. was so overwhelming Evita started to really dislike the groundwork excersises.
Evita did liked to be ridden so I proceeded with this during the "NHE School period" and was guided by a trainer Evita loves. Trying to leave the vienna caveson off on multiple occasions Evita only walked in small circles and holding my stirrups with her teeth. My trainer explained to me this was too much for Evita, she likes to be "taken my the hand" to be guided because the riding is so new to her.
So I luckily listened to Evita in this situation and didn't let me be influenced by any "rules".

I'm curious how Evita will like to pick up our "gut feeling groundwork" in a while! can't wait!

I would like to say as a closer for this too long post:
My wish for this forum is that NEVER EVER, not on any occasion, people would say "I let AND come before my own gut feeling and judgement and let it be more right than my horse"!!

Here we are not the kind of people who need an enemy to feel like we are a team! Only positive energy, wich will take us around the world!

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Now that I have my rant out of the way, I do have to credit NHE with being a major stepping stone in helping me find this way of working with horses - merging classical training theories with reward-based training techniques. It is not new exactly, but it was the place I found on the internet. Alexander's dvds were inspiring to me.

The forum, when I got there, was fun and interesting. I think it had just gone through it's first molt , where they sectioned the forum into school, and not-school.

But it was, and still is, contradictory in terms of answers to questions. Because you are encouraged to encourage, but not directly instruct, I found it hard to wrap my mind around things...food, no food, pressure, no pressure. How to achieve something was to be gleaned from hundreds of old posts, and I often felt like I got it wrong. I would think, ah HA, that is how it's done! And someone would tell me no, that is not how it is done. But still, we had some great and lively conversations.

I didn't really go through any stage of not enjoying my time with Cisco, because when the information on how to do somethign was not forthcoming, I just guessed. I went by the Principles dvd and my imagination. Any frustration I felt seemed to happen well away from my time with Cisco.

I think it is right to say Mr. and Mrs. Nevzorov are hugely to praise and respect for the ground shifting things they have accomplished, and I too love the DVD and articles! But I found the NHE forum/school to have spinned out of control. Neither Mrs. or Mr. Nevzorov are (anymore) involved in running the forum.

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Hmm yes... nor Sergei, whose original input formed the lessons. REading his writings.. getting the meaning from the difficult English.. it's hard to see where some of the present day "officials" of NHE are getting their training ideas from.
It appears that Donald's clinics are straight NH as I always suspected from his comments. There is a huge furore brewing as the truth comes out.
This is the problem.. NHE IS ALEXANDER NEVZOROV.. but the school is not HIS! The school is a place for AN worship.. not a place where he comes to teach. More like a temple than a school. And no-ones checking to see whether those who are giving the advice really get it.. or are just cashing in or paying lip service with feel good terminology but little true practice.. or just plain not understanding.

Like Karen, I gained a lot from it.. but mostly it was from unexpected places and self study.

Such wonderful insights you all have about the issues of what a horse does for you and why.

May I offer this in rebuttal to those that think a horse should not be rewarded, but should simply "think" and do it for you for some esoteric bond or connection?

If you had the most wonderful job in the world, would you do it less well if you were paid for it?

You are, of course, for your work. And work is a good thing, revealing to us our relative worth in the world, and the satisfaction about our productivity it brings to us.

While horses are not people they do show us that they will work hard for the joy of it, those same reasons we do work, and for the reward, yet another reason we work.

Work is good. Reward is good.

Finally, not all horses, like not all people, are the same...which is patronizing of me to say, but it must be said.

Some horses (people) will not work without reward. Some people (horses) will do a wonderful job with pay or without.

They horses are your companions, not those of various 'trainers,' (what an ugly work, really), so YOU know best what is most appealing to you and the horse.

You are work partners.

If I paid you to work with your horse would you do less good a job?

Donald Redux...the old one.

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I am definitely not one of the people who are against reward. I reward my horses for every tiny little thing they do (although, of course, not always with food) and I think that it this important for them.

But about doing a job with less motivation because of reward: there is indeed a psychological phenomenon, that reward can reduce the intrinsic motivation. They tested it with children, who were in the first condition given a toy to play with. In a second condition they were given the same toy, but were payed to play with it. It was measured, how much and how motivated they played with that toy some time afterwards when there was no reward. The children who were rewarded before did not play anymore, like "when I need to be payed for playing, it can not be so much fun". That does not mean that reward is bad, but I think you have to find a way that the horses don´t do what they do for the reward, but still do it because they want to do the particular exercise (or more generally do something for you).

This is indeed the essence. This is why AND is no system, because no system can cover every individual horse and human and certainly no combination of the two. And nobody is judged over the internet because we are clearly missing a dimension (2 instead of 3) so the view on reality is limited.

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Romy, Donald, what an interesting discussion. I think you're both right.

The study that Romy talks about was done on children, and I think this is very important. Children are still in their "strive towards independence" phase. At some point, if they go through all the human growth and development stages correctly, they will enter into the interdependent stage, when they will have quite different reactions to suggestion, co-ercion, demands, responsibilities etc. The exercising autonomy stage is an important growth towards this, as they move away from the complete dependence they are born with. It would be interesting to see the same study done on adults.

I sure know what you're talking about Romy. Some horses I"ve experienced start to do LESS when we reward them more and give them active choices about participation. This could be likened to the childish phase of independence, as the child tries to break away from dependency, and experiments with his or her power. However, if rewards are handled well, and the horse's rebellion against perceived manipulation is allowed to run it's course, the horse will eventually return to work.. and begin to appreciate the rewards, and want to work for them, just as the child growing towards adulthood begins to move back towards co-operation. Kayce Cover in her "Introduction to Bridge and Target Training" calls this the "sophisticated" animal, and likens it to a human entrepeneur. "The entrepeneur welcomes the opportunitiy to work, because of the success it will bring him. The more the entrepeneur works, the more he makes. Conversely, in general, employees look for ways to AVOID the opportunity to work, especially if there is not much advancement potential, because their success rate is pre-guaranteed and pre-limited. "

What I'm working towards is creating the entrepeneurial attitude with my horses. Some of them attain it quickly, especially those who haven't already been trained with other methods and who have not experienced being co-erced. My older horse who has a strong work ethic, has moved very quickly and willingly into entrepeneurial phase. My filly, who I tried to dominate too much when young, and who is extremely independent, is hovering in worker mode, and swinging to entrepeneur as I improve my ability to remove all co-ercion and pressure from my repertoire.

Cool.!
Sue

I must just say - you have gotten me all laugh...!! I have struggled a lot with NHE some time - even though I as you, love the Nevzorov-part... Now you have kind of put words to all my different feelings...

And thank you very much for this forum "the friendly zone" as I described in a pm in NHE-forum

And I also are very very greatful for internet - I think I have learned more about horses the last year than ever before (theoretically though). I have learned much about clickertraining in internet (much more than the last year though - I have used it for some years with my dogs), I have learned about barefoot trimming, horsekeeping - out 24/7, feeding... You name it - tank you all for have helped me learning all..