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 Post subject: Re: Becoming emotional
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:56 pm 
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Location: Devon, United Kingdom
Oooh thanks Romy and TakeItEasy :smile:

It is amazing what we can achieve if we, like you said Romy, control our emotions depending on the situation. I'm going to read your post through again I think, as it certainly makes a lot of sense to me.

At work today a mule didn't want to go into the area where he has his food, and one of the other members of staff was trying to 'get him in there'. I was absolutely horrified to see how much she was trying to force him over there - she had him in a sort of headlock and they were going round and round in circles in a sort of wrestling action, with her getting more frustrated and angry, and him getting more scared and distressed! In the end she even grabbed his nose to try and squeeze his nostrils or something. I was really disturbed to see this, and I was about to step in, when Muffin (the most common mule name EVER!) figured out what she wanted and walked into the feeding area. But it didn't have to be like that! I know for a fact that she's been very frustrated and unhappy herself lately, so there's a perfect example of like you said, her putting her negative emotions onto him...

TakeItEasy (hehe I don't know your name!), I can relate to that a lot too! I do love it though when the two of you are buzzing, electric, and bursting with enthusiasm. I'm sure that if you have a good connection with your animal, you can usually guarantee that if you have felt like that, they will have done too.


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming emotional
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:26 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:42 am
Posts: 88
Romy, your last post has given me something to think about. Again :D Especially the part about feeling more in control when you attribute what went wrong to yourself, that rings a few interesting bells. I used to do the exact opposite, but I find, more and more, that when I try and locate the part I played in events, examine it for something I did wrong, and resolve to do better next time, it makes ME feel better, and, yes, more in control. On the job, and with Funky :)

Something interesting happened to me a little while ago- that has nothing to do with feeling in control, but possibly something with emotions jumping from one to the other. I was out for a walk with Funky, and, being myself, I had chosen the perfect day for it. It was warm, sunny, and our farmers were counting on rain... thus, the air stank of manure like you wouldn't believe. I was unable to smell anything besides it, and the horses probably weren't, either. Funky was acting much his usual self (that is, he was trying to walk faster than I wanted to walk, and grudgingly slowed down when I reminded him to, only to pick up speed again a step later, and his attention was all over the place unless I demanded it), he did not act much put out, but I felt a kind of buzzing, vibrating, keyed-up feeling inside that was still detached from my own emotions (not overly worried, just annoyed over the stink). It might have been Funky's nervousness I felt, because he was pretty nervous, although holding so tight you wouldn't have seen it looking at him; only his poo kept getting softer when he relieved himself four or five times. I was pretty amazed there... was it me grounding him, because I knew manure not to be dangerous (unless you fall in it), or was he resigned to the smell as a natural phenomenon that he couldn't escape from, like a storm? I have no idea.

_________________
A horse whisperer is the one who can hear their horse whisper.


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming emotional
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:19 pm 
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Sometimes I am wondering if I am not becoming angry enough in response to a threat. Actually I tend to not become angry at all in these situations. I have this with horses and humans alike (for example my mother perceived me as terribly arrogant in my youth when we were having a fight, because I did not get furious while she did), but yesterday I was reminded of it by Pan.

Pan has a tendency to act aggressively when he feels annoyed, for example when the human tells him to lift his head up from the grass by stepping into his way. It happens in other situations as well, and I think what they all have in common is that I make a sudden or rather determined move towards him, which he seems to perceive as impolite and then he turns against me. That is, he jumps into my direction and then either threatens to bite or actually does it. I think he is right in general (of course I should be polite!), but there are situations when I cannot or do not want to avoid saying a clear no to him. Therefore, I think there will always be situations that he perceives as an offence, which makes it necessary for me to think about my reaction to his reaction. ;)

I guess my problem is opposite to that of many others: I just don't care. My subjective feeling when he attacks me is either nonchalence (not even being able to take him seriously, little pony boy acting out), or curiosity (finding it fascinating to observe his reactions), or as far as I can get in the negative department: feeling annoyed. Accordingly, my reaction to him might be a verbal utterance of disapproval and perhaps even making a step towards him or telling him to move out of my space, but there is nothing in my reaction per se that would discourage the attacks. No punishment, no signs of threat, nothing that is really uncomfortable for him.

Obviously, I should want the attacks to stop. From yesterday I only have a blue arm so that's nothing serious, but of course with a horse of that size it can easily get very dangerous. Actually I am not quite sure what I intend to ask with this post, because for me it's rather clear that I cannot pretend to be angry without actually being it, so throwing a tantrum is not really an option for me. ;) I guess my way to actively deal with the attacks would be to just stay as calm as I am but then becoming very firm and serious in telling him that this is not how we interact. I will have to be careful with that though, because I have often experienced it to have a huge effect on others (apparently I can be quite a scary person if I am serious :funny:).

So I think instead of asking what I should do, I am simply curious about your experiences. Do you think there is such a thing as not being angry enough? If so, would you try to work on your emotions directly or just on your behaviour? Did you observe any effects of this on your horses? Any other experiences, opinions or ideas? :smile:


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming emotional
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:51 am 
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Romy wrote:
Pan has a tendency to act aggressively when he feels annoyed


This time I had the impression, you was the annoying flie. ;) He seemed to be just stressed out because he wasn't allow to eat his grass calmly, instead tried this "pushy" person incessantly to keep him off from feeding. ;)

Romy wrote:
I guess my way to actively deal with the attacks would be to just stay as calm as I am but then becoming very firm and serious in telling him that this is not how we interact.


But is it not also a matter of how we can avoid that a horse (Pan) becomes annoyed and aggressively, instead of considering how we have to behave correctly in these situation (what to answer nevertheless important is)?


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming emotional
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:54 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:46 pm
Posts: 250
Location: Meadow Lake, Saskatchewan, Canada
hmmm such a difficult subject to put in words :)
Let me try, as I often come upon people who could use help in this department and I would like to get better at communicating this (the little that I know of the subject)

Let me begin with observations from the herd.
The most powerful horses - (sometimes called dominant, but that's not the full story, power is leadership, not just being bossy) - they show emotion in a very different way. It's the weak that make their gestures big - huge charges, showing teeth, kicking, squealing etc. The leaders watch on, unconcerned, but aware. However, should another horse physically hurt them (or close) they will react. It seems to depend on circumstance - when the other horse gets chased into the leader, there is hardly any repercussions - just a mean face. But when the challenger comes of his own free will, look out...
The other part is foals and young horses. Apart from the foal getting the herd status of it's dam, there are interesting things to see. For example - the young horse - up to about the age of 8 months for the most part, gets away with anything. The rambunctious youngster runs up and bites a horse etc. This is met with a "so-so" disapproval from the big horse - mostly it's just ignored. As the young horse matures, things change and they get treated with the same rules.

So here's my interpretation (also very much influenced by Klaus Hempfling):
As a leader, we are grounded, calm and accepting the horse as he is in the moment. We are present in this time and space - almost regardless of the horse. We just happen to share this space and may do something together, but our attention is not "fixed" on the horse. That is what the follower does - ever notice a pair of horses? one seems to go wherever it wants, the other (weaker one) pays attention and follows. This is not slavery or submission or anything like that, it's being a horse. Ever had the experience of having a good leader yourself? Like a teacher, or a person who seemed like they can have your trust/confidence? you will be aware of them, and gladly follow, for you will feel safe and interested around them.... but their attention is not fixed on you in an "x-ray vision, not seeing anything else" kind of way. That would be very strange and frightening I think.

The other part is: ignore the extreme weakness. Sometimes horses show this as aggression, but it seems to be coming from a different place. Such as desperation or confusion. Horses very rarely show true aggression towards humans, I think. Because I don't think we would survive it :).

The emotions are so tough! For we all want this connection so badly! Alas, it is only when we stop "needing" it that it becomes possible. And you can't fake that. We need to be ok with ourselves before encountering the horse. We need to stop trying to get the horse to fill a void in our lives. For he is a horse, an animal closer to a deer then a dog. It is only recently that I began to understand the true nature of the horse, and so began to see them for who they are.

We will always feel emotions, but like others here have said, it's about what you do with them :). When you are a little bit unconcerned with the horse, it puts things into perspective. It is then easier to remain grounded and loving and supportive... however, it's a difficult path for me....

One of the "markers" on this path is my reaction to a "bad" session. I often fail to be neutral about it and feel depressed and like a failure. I think it's the "bad" sessions that tell you more about your progress then the good ones...

Zu


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming emotional
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:40 pm 
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TakeItEasy wrote:
This time I had the impression, you was the annoying flie. ;) He seemed to be just stressed out because he wasn't allow to eat his grass calmly, instead tried this "pushy" person incessantly to keep him off from feeding. ;


Indeed, and it's not just the grazing but almost every situations in which I say no to something he does. As if he felt I was not entitled to do this, lowly human creature that I am. ;) This is also why I find it so important to make him see that a "no" does not mean "never" but does not have that much of a cost at all - which is why I always ask you to make it easier, not harder, when he gets annoyed or pushy about the grass. For example, we ask him to lift his head from the grass just for a moment and then point to it again so that he can continue eating. I think this decreases his anxiety about being kept from eating, because he will learn that there always is another chance to get more grass real quick. Thus, no need to get angry. :smile:

TakeItEasy wrote:
But is it not also a matter of how we can avoid that a horse (Pan) becomes annoyed and aggressively, instead of considering how we have to behave correctly in these situation (what to answer nevertheless important is)?


Definitely. But the forum is full of discussions about this already (if you want to read about it, you can check out the Links to threads topic). So it just wasn't my question at the moment. ;)

Zu, thanks for writing down your thoughts about this. :smile: For me it's very interesting to look at herd behaviour, but I don't use this as a direct guideline for my own interations with horses. Simply because I have other goals with them than a herd member. Also, I do not see my own role in our interactions as that of the leader, so only some parts of what people write about how to be a leader apply to my way of treating my horses, and only in some specific situations.

Zuzana wrote:
The emotions are so tough! For we all want this connection so badly! Alas, it is only when we stop "needing" it that it becomes possible.


I don't know about "we all" and therefore I can only speak for myself, but personally I don't feel such a strong need. For me, my horses are just like any other beloved person. I like them very much, but I don't exactly feel like I am craving for connection. Or not more than with any other dear friend. But then I guess I am not very firm in the "extreme emotions department" in general. :smile:


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming emotional
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:51 am 

Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:46 pm
Posts: 250
Location: Meadow Lake, Saskatchewan, Canada
Oh this is why this forum is so great! People of different viewpoints can express their thoughts without any worries for "judgement" ... that's very cool.

Romy, that thought about having different goals then a herd member sure made me think. thanks! I don't think I would say that the ideal is to "be a horse" in the horse's world. I don't think it's possible or even something to aspire to. My comments had more to do with the emotions of horses in the herd.... I learned to be clearer in my explanations... :smile:

And I suppose I take back the "we all" comment - how assumptive of me :smile:

It is just so rare to meet people like yourself, with a healthy, balanced relations to their horses... so I think I perhaps overcompensate in my reasoning.

Back to talking about emotions in training: today was an interesting day for me. all the work seemed so unsettled, not quite good enough. Maybe it was the wind....
I struggle with perfectionism! It is only a few years ago I came across Klaus Hempfling's work and learned about collection and self carriage. And only began in hand work this fall. Yet I fall in the trap of comparing myself (and my horses) to the great masters who are my inspiration. I look at their work (most often with Iberian stallions) and I fall short of the mark... I am afraid this proves rather harmful to being emotionally grounded. And then it spirals, as I feel bad about feeling bad... :sad: Any helpful suggestions with this? How do I become more patient and content? And less judgmental? How do I put things into perspective? When I reviewed the video, it looked ok. Improvement from previous work and in lightness, the horses looking better and better. The problem lies with the emotions. And I wonder how much of this is because of this thread... it made me more aware of what I feel?
thanks :smile:
Zu


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming emotional
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:50 pm 
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Zuzana wrote:
I struggle with perfectionism! It is only a few years ago I came across Klaus Hempfling's work and learned about collection and self carriage. And only began in hand work this fall. Yet I fall in the trap of comparing myself (and my horses) to the great masters who are my inspiration. I look at their work (most often with Iberian stallions) and I fall short of the mark... I am afraid this proves rather harmful to being emotionally grounded. And then it spirals, as I feel bad about feeling bad... :sad: Any helpful suggestions with this? How do I become more patient and content? And less judgmental? How do I put things into perspective?


For me there are two things that help me: clarifying my goals and putting the focus for change on me rather than on the result I want to see in the individual I am working with.

Concerning the first aspect, the goals, what works better for me than trying to become less goal oriented is to become more clear about what my goals actually are. For me, the main goal is to get my horses to be strong, confident individuals who actively shape our training according to their wishes. Getting this clear for myself helps me because it shifts my focus, away from the easily measurable results like a specific exercise, and towards the more basic things like the underlying attitudes such as confidence and self-efficacy (which then in turn can be quite helpful in bringing out specific exercises or behaviours ;)). Accordingly, the performance I can see from many "masters" isn't that relevant for my own work, because I don't often see them striving for that goal of turning their horses into happy individualists. This does not mean I can't borrow some of their techniques, but it keeps me from making 1:1 comparisons between their results and mine. We simply go for different things.

But goals also directly relate to the second aspect, the focus on myself. My main goal for myself is to become better at helping the people and horses under my care to bring out the potentials that are inside of them. If I realize I am not doing as great as I could or should, that's also good, because this is what makes me learn how to do it better. I sometimes compare this to being a craftsman. If he is focused on improving his tools and techniques (and less focused on just producing higher quality results), the results will simply emerge as a consequence of this. Therefore, any discrepancy I perceive between the current state and my goal state is great, because it allows me to learn how to do better in that specific regard. If I had an Iberian stallion who was just doing the most beautiful movements all by himself, I would have the moves, but I would not have gained the knowlege how to inspire the horse to get there.

This is also why I am very glad that I can work with Pan and Lena. Both of them pose unique challenges for me due to the way they learn and deal with not so easy situations. Our "progress" might not be as fast as it would be if they were different, but the result is that I am getting better at explaining and adjusting to the needs of the specific person or horse I am working with, instead of simply taking certain things for granted. So as a result of that, I will become someone who can help people and horses better, and later I can use these things for others as well. I would miss out on so much if it was just easy. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming emotional
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:36 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:46 pm
Posts: 250
Location: Meadow Lake, Saskatchewan, Canada
Thank you Romy, your words hit their mark :)

I love the thought of shifting the focus on my ability as a "trainer" and the appearance of learning opportunities - not mistakes... improve my tools and technique, and the piece of art will emerge accordingly :)
And the goals are huge too! When I step back and think more holistically, of course the goals are to make the horse more powerful, strong, happy and sound and beautiful - more alive... maybe that is something to remind myself of before each training session....
Zu


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming emotional
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:25 am 
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Location: Devon, United Kingdom
I must say, I truly resonate with all that Romy has said already.

Zuzana wrote:
..I struggle with perfectionism! It is only a few years ago I came across Klaus Hempfling's work and learned about collection and self carriage. And only began in hand work this fall. Yet I fall in the trap of comparing myself (and my horses) to the great masters who are my inspiration. I look at their work (most often with Iberian stallions) and I fall short of the mark... I am afraid this proves rather harmful to being emotionally grounded. And then it spirals, as I feel bad about feeling bad... :sad: Any helpful suggestions with this? How do I become more patient and content? And less judgmental? How do I put things into perspective? When I reviewed the video, it looked ok. Improvement from previous work and in lightness, the horses looking better and better. The problem lies with the emotions. And I wonder how much of this is because of this thread... it made me more aware of what I feel?
thanks :smile:
Zu


I do have some other thoughts on this too though. What is powerful to me, is to sit back and look in smaller detail at what I already have. I think the 'first exercise - how to be with your horse', is a good thread to read that really helps with this. This is something that I've always done, and it is so useful in helping you to maintain a great appreciation for what is going on between you and the horses you spend time with.
In a way, the great masters become something like fiction in my world. It's a bit like reading a wonderful novel or watching a good film. The memorable parts and magical sensations you might be filled with will linger for a long time, but the most tangible thing of all is your own relationship and connection with one of these incredible creatures. The words from others are just that - words and advice to be regarded and then either cherished or cast aside, because what works for them may not work for you and your horse.
When I spend time with my ponies, the goals become very small, but absolutely brilliant because they are achievable!
I also take note that I must look after my own wellbeing when with these guys, in order to be clear in my intent. Yesterday is a perfect example. Spirit was completely un-touchable a couple of months ago, and now we're doing a lot together. Her hooves are awful though and she desperately needs a trim, so we're slowly working on expanding her comfort zone as far as her legs and hooves being touched and picked out etc goes. Anyway, I was at work all day yesterday, and unfortunately my work with mules and donkeys is always on a tight time schedule and very 'task orientated' because myself and the other staff have to get the jobs done :sad:. Because of this, after work I have to kind of metaphorically shed a skin and come to the ponies as my true, unhurried self! Spirit and I were having a lovely time and I was running my hands down all her legs. She started to offer to pick up her front feet, so I went with that. What I did next however, was a big wrong move. I picked up her front left hoof in a firm and steady way, and a little too high, completely forgetting about all of the beautiful little steps that should have come between running my hands down her legs, and such a big goal as picking a hoof up in such an every-day way! She lost her balance, fell onto her knees, and then scrambled up and ran off!
I was horrified at what i'd just done! Utter frustration welled up in me, but I decided to take a moment to face the warm breeze and relax into the world. Next thing I knew, Spirit was walking back to me asking for us to do more!

I guess what helps is to see such an incredible thing as a friendship with a horse as pretty perfect already. If you do this, then the next steps are just harmless fun, free of ego and with potential for you both to grow wings and soar above the world. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming emotional
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:05 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:14 am
Posts: 28
Location: Victoria, Australia
Loving this thread everyone :f:

Romy, I am like you in the not reacting to the onslaughts and then wondering if I should react more ?? I tend to retreat and avoid any further conflict or escalation of the situation. This is how I am in my interactions with people also. Kami is my mare that has the aggressive outbursts and reacts to my suggestions. The slightest attempt to give her a little direction say when walking with her or if I was to ask her to move a part of her body would trigger a reaction. I do think she reacted like this to stop the human doing anything more to her - what many told me was 'bluff' . Too me she meant business and I had to take her seriously.

To react by saying 'a a' or 'no' or anything negative made her worse. To ignore her (like Nambi does) and pretend nothing had happened seemed a bit arrogant to me (as mentioned in a post earlier by Romy in relation to the psychologist/counsellor). I didn't want to inflate her not did I want to disregard her. If I put myself in her position and thought of the 'other' it helped me understand her. I could not take it personally like I had been doing. I looked internally to myself and what I may have been doing to trigger it. I also found myself wondering how she must feel to have to react like that - how much turmoil and confusion must she be feeling? However along with this I also felt frustration (especially in the early days) that she didn't understand that I would never hurt her or sell her etc. etc.. I didn't need her to compete or be ridden. Looking back (hindsight is always good) I did want some sort of relationship though which I feel was pressure for her.

She has bitten me twice (very hard) in the 3.5 years I have had her. It has been well over 18 months since that last bite. I have moulded myself around her and listened to her attentively. I don't push her and tend to go with how she is feeling on a particular day - if she is grumpy I leave her etc... If she gets pushy or aggressive with food I leave her. I do talk about how I am feeling out loud - for example "I cannot deal with that Kami I will have to walk away from you." I do want her to know my vulnerabilities and vice versa . I don't however dump baggage (as someone mentioned in post) on her or any of them. If I am feeling really upset or sad or tired I tend to just go and see them as usual, let them know (verbally), and then just hang out with them or nearby them or do another job (like pick up poo). I guess I am trying to be honest and authentic just as they are and are allowed to be.

I feel big part of Kami being less threatening has been her starting to trust and feel more in control of the situation when we interact - know that she is free to walk away . She is more confident with me and me with her :sun: As I read somewhere else on the forum it is not a straight linear line with these horses where things improve a little bit each day. We would have big setbacks and dips - a roller coaster ride . Things are much less up and down now which is nice for both of us. :f:

I have not looked at much of KFH's work, however I, like Romy mentioned too have different agenda's to those of most professional trainers that give performances. They don't really impress me that much. I get much more inspiration out of what everyone is doing here at AND and from people like Imke Spilker and Stormy May. :sun: :sun:

I am not sure I have been too clear in my post. It is quite difficult to write about such things as there is so much depth. I also have to say that Kami is the only aggressive horse I have had to deal with so I am not experienced like others here. I also have to add we still have a long way to go and the journey continues .....

Oh one more thing to add with Kami and our interactions. It was better if I could stay calm (both inside and out!) It was not however that calmness that was disconnected or ignoring (as mentioned in other posts). I still remained open hearted to her. It was never dismissive or 'don't be so silly' type of thing. Hard to articulate I am sorry... It took me along time to get to this point with her.


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming emotional
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Your interaction with your horses sounds so lovely, Tracey, also from what I have read in your other posts. I feel lucky to have you here in the forum. :smile:

Tracey Harris wrote:
To react by saying 'a a' or 'no' or anything negative made her worse. To ignore her (like Nambi does) and pretend nothing had happened seemed a bit arrogant to me (as mentioned in a post earlier by Romy in relation to the psychologist/counsellor). I didn't want to inflate her not did I want to disregard her. If I put myself in her position and thought of the 'other' it helped me understand her.


This reminded me of Sue's post about reflective listening in the Encouraging Politeness sticky. If you haven't seen it yet, you might enjoy it. :f:

Today I had my first experience ever with my horses' reactions to me becoming very emotional. As I think I have written in my previous posts (and as it might become obvious from the fact that this was my first experience of this kind despite having had Titum for 13 years), I am not usually having strong negative emotions. However, with one of my most beloved persons having died a few days ago, things are a bit different at the moment. Thus, today I had a huge emotional outburst in the pasture, and it was ever so interesting to observe my three horses' different reactions to that.

The most amazing one was Pia. Despite her young age and her usual role as our little princess who has lots of privileges but no duties, she put her muzzle into my lap and her mane into my face to cry into. She stood still in that way for a very long time, which is completely unusual for her. Summy seemed as if he was trying to be comforting, but I could not deal with his pushy way of seeking closeness, so I had to ask him to keep some distance. He did that for a while and then assumed his usual role as my roof, standing above me. He was resting his muzzle on my head which also was nice. And finally, Titum helped me by not reacting very compassionately at all. Well, he whinnied to call me more often than usual, and offered his exercises in a rather determined way so that I just had to play along. It all seemed as if he was telling me to move on and keep functioning, or as Jessy's signature said "Just keep swimming!" Thus, they were all very different but all of them were helpful in their own way, and I feel very fortunate to have them in my life. :f:


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 Post subject: Re: Becoming emotional
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:55 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:14 am
Posts: 28
Location: Victoria, Australia
Oh so sorry you have lost someone close to you Romy :sad:

Thanks for sharing that intimate interaction with your horses ... Very interesting to see the different responses from each horse - all equally important and unique to each horse ...

I don't feel that sort of raw emotion like grief when someone has died is a problem for horses. It is not like dumping on them or baggage (just clarifying my first post). You were not taking out your sadness or frustration on them rather being honest and authentic and congruent about how you were in that moment. Horses are masters at that.

I went to the horses (I only had Nambi and Kami then) when my cat had been hit by car and I thought he was going to die very upset and crying. I knelt down on the ground crying. They both came over. Nambi nuzzled my tears (maybe he needed salt too!!) and Kami watched on not sure what to do almost puzzled. There was no aggression either or rushing at me to move. Nambi would often look for carrots and if I didn't have any, pretend nip, or knock me with his head. That day he didn't do it.

What a beautiful thing for Pia to do. Summy standing over you like your protector. Titum bless him - trying so hard in his own way to please you :sun: :sun:

Will check that thread on politeness when I have some more time - spent a lot yesterday reading the forum!! :smile: :smile:


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