The Art of Natural Dressage

Working with the Horse's Initiative
It is currently Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:03 pm

All times are UTC+01:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 Next
Author Message
 Post subject: 2: Bow on one knee
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:17 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:12 pm
Posts: 29
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands
The Bow on one knee



Hi,

I read the bow explanation, but what i'm missing is(because i'm all new to this) when and how do you teach your horse to place a frontleg under the body(i don't know how to say it but i hope you understand)?
Thank you

Kind regards,
Jasmijn

_________________
A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:02 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:57 am
Posts: 1983
Location: provincie Utrecht
:-) i do not realy know how you train it. But i had it yesterday by accident.
It was a windy day and there was a white sack moving around the farm. My horse was spooky, so i decided to go after the sack and no riding.
I know it would take a lot of time, but i saw a great opportunity.
So i started, i we passed the sack, i was between the horse and the sack, so no problem. I go every time that we passed the sack a bit more to the sack. We were very close, suddely the wind came in the sack and it moves...woeshh you hear..my horse ran away..#$* he turned his neck and i could not hold him..so he was realy gone...i go and get him and try it again...we reach the sack. I let see him that it was no problem, i can stand on it, pick it up, and lay down again. He looks interested, but scarry..i ask him to go with his nose to the sack. (he know this game) and yes a quick touch and a YES treed and move on.
When we got away from the sack the wind was there again. He run away for the second time and did the same with his neck..jee..too late again :cry:
So he run away..
At the end of the parking place there is a storage of hay, it is covered by plastic. One of those plastics was laying on the ground, so i saw a new project..
I go with my horse to the plastics and i walked on it. Just a few steps. I sit down and ask my horse to come to me with his nose, so i new he had to do a little step forward to reach me, but he was scared and did not move.
But his nose came very slowly towards me...
little by little more, suddenly he was totaly steched out..i did not know what i saw..i had try it several times in the arena, but nothing works. But now he did it..because he does not want to stand on the plastic...but the treed he likes very much... So i give him a yes and a treed of course.
Stand up and walked to him. And do it again..and yes he did it again...
It was not the point that i wanna reach at that time but i was happy that i had found something to let him do this kind of movements.

Then i go stand next to him and join him together to the plastic and touch it with his nose..so he did finaly..so i had two things at the same time that day. Although it was not planned at all.
But i was happy and he too after all. :D

I think it is not the correct way...but it worked for me yesterday. Next time i will try it again in the arena without the plastic :-)


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:48 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 8:18 pm
Posts: 4941
Location: Alberta
Jasminum,

I have approached this in two ways.

First with Cisco, it was a matter of getting him to reach between his front legs for a cookie, and gradually asking him to reach farther and farther until he had to move one leg out of the way. He did this by lifting that leg (which happened to be the one nearest to me). Then he could reach even farther with the leg lifted and over time, I would ask him to reach farther and farther by holding the treat farther from his nose and more underneath him. Finally, one day, he reached far enough that his knee touched the ground.

This is a pretty bow, but the head ends up on the ground also. Cisco's forehead touches the ground when he bows.

With Tamarack, I hope to use the bow to mount him (when the ground is soft enough to ask him to go down on one knee), so I wanted his head to be more up and his weigh more back on his haunches when he bows. So with him, I would ask him first to lift his leg and be able to hold it up mostly on his own. I will keep my hand on his leg to help him. Then he also needs to learn to rock his weight backward. This can be done by gently pulling back and down on the cordeo and rewarding the horse for leaning back. This can take a long time.

When the horse understands that he can laen back and down, then you can ask for the front leg to be lifted, and help support it, and then while the foot is in the air, ask for back and down with the cordeo.

It took time for Tamarack to put it all together, but he finally did. It took even longer for him to be able to do it without me holding his leg for him, but he's finally got that too!

This is only one a couple of ways to teach it.

You can also teach a front crunch first, then teach them, basically, a front crunch with one front leg held up under them (with your help initially), and a front crunch becomes a bow...but be careful to try and use different cues for the front crunch and the bow, or you may lose your front crunch in the process.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:59 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:12 pm
Posts: 29
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands
thank you karen for the good explanation :).
I haven't taught the front crunch yet.
Can you also use a rope instead of a cordeo?
Think i'll try it like you have taught it to tamarack.

_________________
A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:24 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:28 am
Posts: 178
The way I did it was to hold her leg and rock it back, like Karen stated. Eventually, she put her leg on the ground. Each little step, I would give her a treat. When she was super close to putting her leg on the ground, that's when I started using the word "bow" along with a treat.

This does take time, patience, consistence and knowing when to ask for more.

We're very close to actually having the bow on cue. She'll just lift her leg and rock back, but she doesn't have it on the ground yet, I still have to help her so she can have her treat. But we're close. Her left side, I'm still having to hold her leg up and I'm still waiting for it to touch the ground. We're close to having that.

I've been working on this for 2 months. I don't ask of this everyday or even every week. It's only when it feels right to me.

April

_________________
Horse's idea becomes your Idea...

April


Top
   
 Post subject: Still not sure
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:39 am 

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:26 am
Posts: 47
Location: TN
I'm new to all of this. I come from the parelli program. I only ever go up to phase two if that. My horse and I have an amazing relatioship we can play for hours and at the end of it all he still wants to be with me but I can't get him to reach through the legs to get a cookie? I've tried showing him I have a treat using a halter to lightly guide his head I have considered getting under him but that is dangerous maybe I coud teach him to put his nose on a rubber spot and he will cookie then take to spot away when he understands? Help is really apreitiated.

Thanks
Mare and Bear


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Still not sure
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:12 am 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Mare-n-Bear wrote:
I'm new to all of this. I come from the parelli program. I only ever go up to phase two if that. My horse and I have an amazing relatioship we can play for hours and at the end of it all he still wants to be with me but I can't get him to reach through the legs to get a cookie? I've tried showing him I have a treat using a halter to lightly guide his head I have considered getting under him but that is dangerous maybe I coud teach him to put his nose on a rubber spot and he will cookie then take to spot away when he understands? Help is really apreitiated.

Thanks
Mare and Bear


The answer, of course, is increments.

Start with the smallest increment possible. Take your time, and click and treat for each increment of lower height.

It he stops following the target (I presume you know, from what you've said above, you know about targetting) back up an increment or two, and start again.

Hi, and Welcome.

Donald Redux

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:22 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 8:18 pm
Posts: 4941
Location: Alberta
There are several components to the bow that can all be trained seperately.

Your horse has to understand to bring the head down, but not necessarily between his knees for a one knee bow. Just lowering it is fine. It's good that he's reaching a bit between the legs, but he hasn't figured out how to make the rest of his body help him. So you have to show him all the little parts, then give him the guidance and the time to put it together.

I will try to think of all the parts to this type of bow.

1) head down (or at least lowered)

2) lift the front leg on your side of the horse (If you are on his left, then you choose the front left leg) with head down.

3) lean back slightly with one leg lifted and head down. (holding the leg -one hand under the hoof and one hand in front of the knee - and rocking the leg gently back helps - release and reward for even the slightest shift back at first until the horse feels confident doing this). Try not to drop the leg unexpectedly. Rock back and then forward again with the horse and let the leg back down gently.

4) move the back feet farther back (not every horse will have to do this) with all of the above in place, head down, leg lifted and rocking back.

5) lower the knee back and down - to the ground. This will come as the horse is more and more confident in leaning back on three legs.

Again, the horse will find his own head height. Some need it very low, others don't. It depends on thier balance. Some need to move the hind feet further back, others don't.

So you start with one aspect and then add in each element, or you can train all the parts very separately, then gradually being them all together. There is no perfect way that will work for all horse/person combinations. As you try this and that, your horse will show you how he wants to do it. Never rock the leg back farther than the horse is willing. Always be gentle and work for one more centimeter or an inch at a time. Allow the process to take as long as it takes. It could be a few sessions for some - months for others. Don't get in a hurry!

Hope this helps!


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:35 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
Great answer, Karen!

Another thing that I would add, is don't use the halter to guide the head down! It's quite risky and you want your horse to discover her own movements.

I would also not use food to lure her down for the same reason: you want her to be conscious of the movement and of the moment that she gets rewarded, and not just blindly follow a carrot. 8)

If I were you, I would first teach your horse a rewardsignal (like in clickertraining and Bridge&Target or SATs), then teach him to target (touch an object on your cue) and then slowly move that target lower to the ground untill it is on the ground, and then slowly, over several training session, drag it backwards between her frontlegs in order to ask her head to follow.

It's good to remember that the bow isn't just a trick, it's an exercise that is important for the fysical wellbeing of your horse, and how you teach your horse this exercise, teaches your horse a lot about how you see her. If you would use pressure to get her to move down, or would prevent her from putting the head somewhere else, she will still do the exercise but will also know that she didn't learn it on her own because her real responses were overruled with a restraint. That's how the bow usually is trained in tricktraining, but that has a different, more result oriented goal and philosophy than AND, which always focuses on the relationship in every part of the learning curve of an exercise.

So just take your time, and let Bear explore the movement on his own! :)


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:10 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:41 pm
Posts: 86
We have a little mistake that sneaked into our bow.

At first Twilight did it perfectly: I touch his belly with a wip and then he kneels down on one leg.

But now he just goes straight down. So he bends his front leg, which is quite dangerous and not good for his joints, because sometimes his hoof is completely twisted.

So I have decided to teach him first to spread his legs : move frontlegs more forwards and afterwards ask for the bow so there is more space between the front and hindlegs.

And this is where I fail. I cannot seem to make him clear that he should not move his hindfeet, but only move each frontfoot a little bit more forward.


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:29 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
Lanthano wrote:
But now he just goes straight down. So he bends his front leg, which is quite dangerous and not good for his joints, because sometimes his hoof is completely twisted.


I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean... :oops:
Can you explain it in another way? Which leg is doing what, and in which frontleg is the problem, the outstretched on or the kneeling one?
Thanks!


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:03 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:41 pm
Posts: 86
I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean... :oops:
Can you explain it in another way? Which leg is doing what, and in which frontleg is the problem, the outstretched on or the kneeling one?
Thanks![/quote]

Sorry, I'll try to explain it better.

Lets say I would like him to kneel on his left knee. So the right leg must be stretched out in front of him.

He used to do it perfectly, but know he doesn't place his knee enough backwards and he doesn't shift his weight enough backwards. So he goes straight down and bend his right leg, instead of stretching it. The left knee is on the ground but almost next to his right leg. And he bends the right leg that far that sometimes his hoof cannot be on the ground anymore, just the tip of it, so there's a lot of pressure on the joints (kroongewricht, kogelgewricht). And when he pushes himself up, all the weight comes on the point and I mean really the tip of the hoof. Soooo bad for his joints!!!! :cry:

Hope I explained it better this time :oops:


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:13 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Netherlands
Now I understand! 8)

You can try various things - one of them indeed is to ask him to stretch out first (for example through the bow with two legs stretched, or the back crunch) and then ask him to kneel on one knee. You can also use a target to direct his nose further back when asking for the kneeling on on knee, instead of straight down. You can also use this target backwards motion when he is already sitting on that one knee, in order to move the body further back which will stretch the straight leg more.

And if he isn't doing this for months, I wouldn't really worry about it, because it just sounds like your horse is trying to figure out how to bow on two knees. :D


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:29 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:41 pm
Posts: 86
I tried to make a picture of his wrong bow.

But this time I had to help him a little bit :

Image

On this one you see it very well :
Image

Kneeling to eat some grass:
Image


Top
   
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:46 am 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:47 pm
Posts: 302
Location: Grantville, PA
I would try really stretching his legs BEFORE asking for the bow.

Maybe there is something about hte stretch that bothers him- may mare had this same tendecy with her right leg- that leg has some scar tissue and wasn't as flexible as the left. Once she did it more often she figured out to keep it stright on her own.

Maybe it is a flexibility thing??? Oh,well- if he is doing it on his own it can't hurt too much! Although I do understand your concern.

_________________
Learning to put the relationship first.


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 Next

All times are UTC+01:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited Color scheme created with Colorize It.