The Art of Natural Dressage

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 Post subject: Re: Spanish walk
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:19 pm
Posts: 54
Location: zweden
Thanx for sharing. Really nice and interesting.
When i first looked att the video i thought... wow... the horse seems a little agressif on some points.
So i starded to take a look again and again, watching closely what you where doing and using a lot of 'stops' to watch even more closely.
And is accurs to me that i was wrong. Watching really closely , it seems to me now that the horse is not agressif but offering extra behavior, to see if it just may be worth an extra reward. Like he's just putting more energy in it.

Now i'm wondering...
Am i right or not? What do other people see.


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 Post subject: Re: Spanish walk
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:57 pm 
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Location: Dresden, Germany
I can't speak about Romantic as I don't know him well enough, so I will just write about my own experiences. This might or might not have anything to do with Marie and Romantic. :smile:

I am getting reactions that look the same when I playfully put pressure on Titum, and just like in the video it precisely correlates with the energy and degree of "making him do things" that I put into my cues (bodylanguage directed at him, for whip actions I don't have enough experiences). Not when it's threatening pressure (like chasing him away, which I had to do when Pia was new and he was attacking her), but when it's pressure aiming at increasing the energy in his moves. Usually I don't do that, because personally I don't feel capable enough of always finding the line where it's still fun for him and does not feel like a demand - but as I have written yesterday in another topic, it might be that we found a way to make sure he is okay with it by having him actively decide to opt in instead of me having to wait for negative feedback to know that it's too much.

I love playful aggression. I love rough play. For us the problem has always been, though, that Titum also becomes like that when he is not playful but annoyed with me. From his look alone I can't really tell the difference with enough certainty, yet, which is why I chose to stay on the safe side and either not use energy directed at him at all or if I do, make sure I don't impose the pressure on him but let him impose it on himself if he wants to.

However, I also need to add that some years ago when our training was still based on pressure and Titum just had to do what I told him, he did not have this reaction. He only got it after feeling empowered and knowing that he was calling the shots in our training.

As I said, this needn't have anything to do with Romantic.


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 Post subject: Re: Spanish walk
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:32 am 

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:19 pm
Posts: 54
Location: zweden
I find it quit en interesting subject....
I know that one off the things people do (AND filofosie?) to give the horse the call, so to speak. Loving little rough games etc.

I have to admit... i don't do that. Basecly i ask my horse to do something and try to work with that, t.e. bending on a circle.
If the horse offers a trot or something like that... its okey.
But would she rear t.e., i would not give a reward there, even not if its a really beautifull rear and not in my direktion.
If she rears in my direktion... (she was not that easy and tended to come in my direction when i asked something with her ears pinned back and a angry face... she's quit a alpha mare) i would sent her away.

I do play catching the tiger and she can do it howe-ever she likes, but i don't want her to catch me.

So.... she's not calling all the shots. I ask and she can do it or not, but i dont want her to come att me att an aggressiv way..She always has a opportunety to leave if she does not like what i'm doing or just make clear something is bothering her. I will do something with that, change what i 'm doing. So she gets to say what she thinks, wants etc.
I don't punnish behavior i don't ask/want. But i do not reward it eather. Unless she is just putting more effort in a exercise than i asked for exemple bending more, giving away a tror and stuff like that.
But no rears, bucks, and other stuff than could be dangerous if she's doing it on top of me

I think a lot about these things now a days, watching dvd's and stuff.
It absolutely does look impressive when a horse really gets on adrenaline. However... its seems to me that you need more and more skills and most of all being able to control that behavior, to make sure its not getting dangerour

A game to a horse is always about looking where he stands/who stronger is.
If you look att horses, dogs ... whatever.... they really like playing. But... there is always some competition in a play and sometimes it gets serious. And i dont want that kind of competition, becouse i'm a little weak human being, not able to fight for real with a horse if nessesary.

I cant help wondering where the play stops and realtime starts. And like you said romy... it is a really thin line.
To explain i will show this clip from passionata.
This is kind of rough game.
But i doubt if its really a game to the horse, looking att its expression, and it just could be that there is a great ammount off pressure coming from the girl with the flower, witch you can not see in the show (well trained) but in the horse.
And she probely needs this pressure to keep control. .. i think.... i maybe wrong.

Then there is this other point that keeps me wondering...
If we let our horses play rough with us, if we keep rewarding.f.e. Rears whe did't ask and other fancy stuff.... we might just be able to deal with itt, knowing why the horse does is and so on... but....
What if something happens to me? Its always possible, What if somethings happens to me and the horse has to be såld/gets a new owner?
What would most people do when they get a horse that starts to rear and do al kind of wild games with his new owner, who does not understand the behavior?

Is it not our responsebillety to make sure that the horse will stay save, even if we'r not around?
Just some thoughts...

clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkxBLwLP ... re=related


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 Post subject: Re: Spanish walk
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:40 am 
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liljebo wrote:
I know that one off the things people do (AND filofosie?) to give the horse the call, so to speak. Loving little rough games etc.

I have to admit... i don't do that.


Many people here don't do that. There are several people who want a rather high level of stimulus control (meaning that the horse is only rewarded for doing an exercise when he has been asked for it). And that's great! The results are just different, but then different people have different goals and whereas some like their horses offering all kinds of moves, others don't want that. That't the beauty about AND - there are so many different people with different ways of playing with their horses.

If you are interested in reading more about that, you can check out this thread: stimulus control and begging with exercises or look into the 'Links to threads' sticky in the Research subforum where we have collected several links about that.

Quote:
And she probely needs this pressure to keep control. .. i think.... i maybe wrong.


Just wanted to point out that although you CAN get control through pressure, that is by no means the only way to achieve that. You can have a very controlled horse with purely R+ methods. In the 'Links' thread that I just mentioned there is a thread about differential reinforcement, which might be interesting for you if you want to read more.


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 Post subject: Re: Spanish walk
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:42 am 

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:19 pm
Posts: 54
Location: zweden
Thanx... i am going to read it soon as possible. There's so mutch to learn... :yes:


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 Post subject: Re: Spanish walk
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:57 am
Posts: 1983
Location: provincie Utrecht
liljebo wrote:
I cant help wondering where the play stops and realtime starts. And like you said romy... it is a really thin line.


If you are working longer with the AND filosofy it will come. You will reconise the difference between play and realtime.
It is a matter of time and learning from your horse to see and understand his language.

It is better for us humans to play save, we are more fragile then the horse is. It hurts to much when they kick or bite you ;)
Later on during the play and exercise you make slowly more progress to the more wild play games. This have to grow for both of you.

I dont play this wild games as for example Bianca does, because my horse is not that wild-play-full. So i dont have to worry about the rearings and so on. But my shetty likes it more and he can rear sometimes very quick but always with a lot of securety of himself.
So i dont have to worry about accidents.
i am a happy person with my boys. :D

as long you enjoy what you are doing with the horses, be happy, and enjoy the video's people put over here. You dont have to do the same thing :smile: I see sometimes videos from which i think that is what i wanna try too and i go to my horses and try it out.
I see also some video's and think wow...so great but not for me and my horses. But i enjoy it very much just to look at.


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 Post subject: Re: Spanish walk
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:43 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:15 pm
Posts: 584
Location: Georgia (USA)
I loved the video :applause: Such great work with Romantic, she looked proud to be doing all of that. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Spanish walk
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:33 pm 
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Nice, nice, nice!!!! :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:50 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:08 pm
Posts: 148
Location: France
Helloo,

with romantic, we made progress a little since the last time I came. This is a video of our level currently. All your advices are welcome!

:friends:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kLSzVHK01s

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:22 am 
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Location: Vienna, Austria
Unfortunately this video is blocked for me, because of copyright issues. I guess you used a song for background music that´s not allowed in my country :(.

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The horse owes us nothing.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 11:57 am
Posts: 1983
Location: provincie Utrecht
i can see him, looks great. :yes:

hey Volker do they block the video then?? hmm i did not know that....


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:15 pm
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Location: Georgia (USA)
Wonderful to watch :f:

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There's no more looking back - no more grey skies black.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:53 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:18 pm
Posts: 16
Can't see the vid either :sad:


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 Post subject: BEACH
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:26 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:08 pm
Posts: 148
Location: France
A lesson on the beach!!! It was so great, feeling of freedom...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPiaJunC2o8

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 Post subject: Re: BEACH
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:50 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:44 pm
Posts: 1937
Location: The Hague, Netherlands
Ahhhh so NICE to see!!! :D Thank you for sharing!

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