The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:13 pm 
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Miriam wrote:
BladeRunner wrote:
I think it is a good idea to lunge for stepping under with the hindleg and bending the body, so when would be the best time to start this type of lunging?


As soon as your horse understands how to step under in hand (with you next to him, with cordeo or at liberty) which you teach him on a small circle. Because then you can ask him to enlarge the circle by asking him to step sideways away from you with his hindleg stepping under. First you ask him to only enlarge the circle with a meter, then more and more. :)


Miriam, with your own and others many contributions to the folders "Research Material," and "Groundwork," as well as other folders, anyone with a question such as this would do well to take a quick look.

The AND forum's search engine can deliver posts and threads that have gone into considerable depth on the subject.

This subject in particular has had some very good coverage. Bladerunner might benifit by a quick review of the thread at:

http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/vie ... light=step

I came across this when I was searching for the source (I believe it was you -- but don't hold me to it -- that provided it) of the precise method of working with the horse in hand to execute the "step under."

I haven't as yet located it but possibly you'll remember. The trainer cited was female. The action described, roughly paraphrased, was:

Leading the horse in an energetic walk (it might have been trot) bring the horse to a halt and immediately cue for a single step away of the hind quarters. The nearest hind hoof should move in front of the grounded outer hoof.

Please edit any errors in my understanding. The source cited did a wonderful job of describing this movement.

It was the first of lateral movements I used to help Dakota begin to supple, and strengthen in preparation for collection.

May I suggest that any newcomers here interested in various training aspects do a read of those folders.

There is found a growing treasury of information, references, citations, explanations, and clarifying discussions of great value.


Donald Redux

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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:24 pm 
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Hi Donald,
I am very sorry that I wasted space on AND by posting this thread. I have no idea why I didn't think to use the search engine! :oops: I will research thoroughly next time I have a question.

Thanks to all who gave me such great answers! Romy, you were the first to make me realize that I don't need to stand still while lunging, because I don't work with escalating pressure, so thanks for that revelation!

Oh, and thanks to Donald for the "Duh, use the search engine!" :lol: :lol:

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Brittany

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:28 pm 
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BladeRunner wrote:
Hi Donald,
I am very sorry that I wasted space on AND by posting this thread. I have no idea why I didn't think to use the search engine! :oops: I will research thoroughly next time I have a question.

Thanks to all who gave me such great answers! Romy, you were the first to make me realize that I don't need to stand still while lunging, because I don't work with escalating pressure, so thanks for that revelation!

Oh, and thanks to Donald for the "Duh, use the search engine!" :lol: :lol:


Oh, Dear ME! No no no!

There is no 'better' way. Just another way. Please do both, and start where you are.

You might have had a question triggered by reading someone's commentary, and want to engage right then. That IS the way to proceed if that is what you feel inspired to do.

The teacher is NOT the learner. YOU are the learner and thus your own teacher.

Go with your inspiration, not my silly "teacherliness."

One may start anywhere. With the other horseperson, with written resources, and with the horse him or herself.

There is no RIGHT way.

Your intent drives how and what you learn. NOT the other way around.

"How and what," should never be creating intent.

That is the tool of authoritarianism. Ugh!

(Nothing more embarrassing to a dedicated teacher than to have been caught clumsily 'teaching,' by correcting, again ... shame on me).

:oops:


Donald Redux 1965

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:45 pm 
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It's okay! :D I really think that's good advice, to search first and then if I still have questions, to ask them. However, like you said, if I read something that triggers a question I may post it right away if I am inspired to do so.
:wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:21 pm 
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Donald Redux wrote:
I came across this when I was searching for the source (I believe it was you -- but don't hold me to it -- that provided it) of the precise method of working with the horse in hand to execute the "step under."


Hi Donald,

I'm not sure exactly if I found you the right spot, but the methods to teach your horse to step under, are over here:
http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/viewtopic.php?t=327
Maybe the quote you needed is over there too?

About this topic: I actually thought about turning it into a sticky, as we haven't covered lunging in a sticky yet! :D I'll write a formal entry later, but for now just the stickyness will do. ;)

And it's true that a lot of questions have already been asked in the past. It would probably be good if members started using the search engine more, but on the other hand the questions can lead to new exercises (like this topic 8) ), so don't feel too bad about it!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:29 pm 
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Miriam wrote:
...

Hi Donald,

I'm not sure exactly if I found you the right spot, but the methods to teach your horse to step under, are over here:
http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/viewtopic.php?t=327
Maybe the quote you needed is over there too?

About this topic: I actually thought about turning it into a sticky, as we haven't covered lunging in a sticky yet! :D I'll write a formal entry later, but for now just the stickyness will do. ;)

And it's true that a lot of questions have already been asked in the past. It would probably be good if members started using the search engine more, but on the other hand the questions can lead to new exercises (like this topic 8) ), so don't feel too bad about it!


Yes, that is the very thing I was looking for at:

http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/viewtopic.php?t=327


I wrote with poor clarity. I meant to say that what has been contributed before is yet another resource. And to look their TOO.

As a typical external processor (means I babble a lot) I'm appreciative of the manner in which give and take on an issue helps explore it and helps discover more about it.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:09 pm 
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Very good idea to turn this into a sticky Miriam! I will be looking forward to reading the formal entry.

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Brittany



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:19 pm 
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Quote:
I would like to hear others thoughts on this, while I'm trying to figure out what I think about it. (I'm not quite sure what I think yet :roll: :lol: )


Wow! Great thread! Just shows that there are soooo many ways to lunge and just as many reason to lunge or not to lunge, eh??

Anyway, I lunge with a target, clicker trained so it is not mindless as I am always looking for some little piece that I like, and so click and treat a lot. I have been lunging with the Target low, so Lucy moves with her head stretched down long and low, walk, trot, and a little canter. Lucy doesn't self exercise so one of the main reasons I target lunge is for fitness, and it's a way to do it without pressure.

Now since I have been here at AND, I am shapng a new cue with the Target (touch her chest) to have her lift her head and flex a bit, usually stepping under at the same time. I also do this when I'm playing with the Tiger, and I get more animation there. So in between jumping around (as much as Lucy jumps around <G>), I'll do some trotting circles trying to get some flexion and a rounder back, getting more push from the rear.

Here's a video from last week using the Target (not the Tiger):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQV8EeGKwvs

I always done things different so no reason to quit now <G>!!!!

Brenda


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:38 am 
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Great way to lunge Brenda! I'll definitely try that way too! That way looks so fun for the horse.

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Brittany



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:43 am 
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BladeRunner wrote:
Great way to lunge Brenda! I'll definitely try that way too! That way looks so fun for the horse.


Yes! It certainly is! No pressure for sure! Lucy loves it! And if Blade already loves his Tiger, you could easily transition to this type of lunging!

Poor Lucy is my first clicker horse, and now my first AND horse so she is my 'guinea pig' with all these 'new' ways of doing things! But she gets LOTS of treats so I 'think' she doesn't mind!

I'm sure with a more talented, physically lighter horse, you could get more or better 'stuff' from it! I also use barrels a lot for practicing bending, stepping under, etc. and it keeps things more interesting too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF_L4-nKeVo

Also here is another video from last year working with Lucy on a long lead, some mimicing?, so not quite lunging but maybe a good transition from close work on the ground?? I like moving with the horse. Of course you could use a cordeo(instead of a halter) and a line?? Now that I am learning about AND, I am planning to go that route as soon as it stops SNOWING!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWNHTqgjAcQ

Enjoy! Brenda


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:28 am 
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I think all three ways of lunging (standing still [Parelli], moving with the horse [Hempfling], and target/tiger) have their benefits.

I do believe the standing-still method of lunging teaches the horse great persistence. I don't think it necessarily has to be taught through pressure (as in, "keep going because I say so!") but can simply be the horse learning to continue performing for a period of time before being rewarded; ie, helping them move away from instant gratification. When a horse can continue around you without help, it seems that they have learned a lot of responsibility and this can transfer over into other exercises.

When you move with the horse, there is a huge potential for influencing his movement and carriage, as you are now a dynamic part of his environment. When I start lunging Caspian in this way, he instantly tunes in to me and focuses intently, mimicking my movements in a way he doesn't necessarily do when I'm leading. Although certainly movements and improvements in gait/carriage can be taught without lunging, for example, in running beside the horse, or in free play, it seems that lunging facilitates that learning -- the horse doesn't have to be wondering where you're going or what's happening next, but can concentrate on the fact that you're consistently staying in a consistent circle doing consistent things. (Not to mention it's less work for you! :) )

And then the "tiger lunging" provides great incentive for movement! It is also a great way to transition from play to lunging without the horse realizing it.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:17 am 
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Brenda wrote:
And if Blade already loves his Tiger, you could easily transition to this type of lunging!


Well he certainly loves his Tiger!! So I will try this the next time I get to play with him (hopefully soon, the weather is supposed to get warmer this week). I'll let you know how it goes.

Quote:
Poor Lucy is my first clicker horse, and now my first AND horse so she is my 'guinea pig' with all these 'new' ways of doing things! But she gets LOTS of treats so I 'think' she doesn't mind!


That's how it is with Blade, poor, poor boy. :wink:
He is my first horse, so besides for just trying to learn how to Take Care of a horse, I have tried Parelli, NHE, Clicker Training, and now AND. I still do clicker training of course! :wink:
Now that we do Clicker Training & AND,I can see that Blade really enjoys our time together. I am so thankful to have such a wonderful horse.

We are all so blessed to have horses in our lives.

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Brittany



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:38 am 
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Makana wrote:
I think all three ways of lunging (standing still [Parelli], moving with the horse [Hempfling], and target/tiger) have their benefits.


This is very true. Every method can only be evaluated in relation to its goals. And if you want to take the social or interdependent component out of your work to a certain extend and have the horse work on his own without your involvement, then standing still and letting the horse run around you might be just the best choice.

So I can´t say that the method is wrong or bad, only that it doesn´t fit to my goals and training ideas, which emphasize interaction and communication a lot. I don´t want a rather autistic performance, but a constant conversation during our training. And probably I am also a little bit biased after all the conversational therapy lessons and communication training during my studies... just try how it feels to talk to someone who is looking out of the window all the time. ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:57 pm 
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:lol: :cry: :lol: :cry:

I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

AND has a search engine? RATS! I didn't notice that! I wouldn't have had ask a bunch of maybe unneccessary questions!

There's reasons for lunging horses? Oh! :shock:

I've only ever known it for "taking the edge off" an oatsy horse! RATS!

I thought you could only call it lunging if you were using the "proper" equipment in a "proper" arena i.e. caveson, lunge whip, lunge line, 20m round area, etc. Sigh!

Well, that'll teach me to jump in the deep end! Again!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:40 am 
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Glen Grobler wrote:
:lol: :cry: :lol: :cry:

I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

AND has a search engine? RATS! I didn't notice that! I wouldn't have had ask a bunch of maybe unneccessary questions!

There's reasons for lunging horses? Oh! :shock:

I've only ever known it for "taking the edge off" an oatsy horse! RATS!

I thought you could only call it lunging if you were using the "proper" equipment in a "proper" arena i.e. caveson, lunge whip, lunge line, 20m round area, etc. Sigh!

Well, that'll teach me to jump in the deep end! Again!


I usually refer to it as 'circle' work, just to clarify that I don't use it to take the edge off a horse.

A couple of circles is usually all I'll do to wake the horse up, not wear him down. Like some easy movement to prepare for more strenuous exercise.

I do sometime, quite deliberately do Volte work, for a particular purpose. Dakota was, for instance, very left sided. Stiff but strong on the left, loose and flabby and weak on the right side.

He looked like he had been hit in the ribs by a truck.

So I did quite a bit of work on the right hand, that is stretching the left side and encouraging the right side to tighten up.

He's improved a little I'd say.

But his canter is onesided. Smoother on the left lead. A horror on the right.

Neither is that good really, after a couple of months of no work.

Circles can help with collection if done square up as was being discussed here recently about pecador.

Square circles rather than round ones.

We must seem strange to the non horse people.

We want our horses to go "straight" on a curved track, and when they look at us doing it, we have the horse's body curved to the arc of the track.

And we circle our horses into squares.

And we can't seem to land on one language to discuss Dressage. Not even horses in general, or riding them.

Lope - canter. Chestnut - Sorrel. Black horses that because they have a little brown on the underside are called "Brown," while a white horse with a few little brown specs is called a Fleabitten GREY.

We back our horses, not by making them go backwards, but by getting on top of them.

Yet we still say 'back' when we mean we back them up. "Ask your horse to back please."

We regular break our own rules, by calling a young horse of either sex a colt, when we know perfectly well that means a male while filly means a young female.

Heck we don't even use mare and horse correctly, the one being male, the other female.

I'm forever calling mares horses.

And the biggest hoax we pull on the non-horse set is this one:

You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Sure you can. Just don't give him water for awhile. And then take him to water. You'll have trouble making him NOT drink.

We are the funniest people, we are.

I think there is an odor given off by horses that is in fact an intoxicant that addles our brains, and makes us do the silliest things.

And apparently it takes years and years to wear off, and if you then come in contact again, you can be hooked in a few minutes.

Blasted horses anyway.

Now I'm shopping for a horse box (trailer to you Americans), I'm angling to get some tougher horses to train than Dakota (and he broke someone's back) so you KNOW I'm out of my head with Horse Perfume. I even hang my riding clothes in my bedroom.

I think it makes me sleep better.

:roll: :wink: :lol:


Donald Redux, addict and quite happy with it.

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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