The Art of Natural Dressage

Good Morning to you all, as many of you know from my Introduction, I am new to the forum and new to AND - absolutely thrilled with it as it all fits well into my training philosophy. I spend every evening going through the forum, learning from you all. My question is this: Although my horses well being and happiness is the most important to me, as well as the training that we do together in terms of groundwork (soon we will be starting the Cordeo) What are everyone's thoughts on Eventing and competing. I still love to compete as does my horse, and I will continue to do it until he no longer finds joy and fun in it. Does my love for competing him go against the rules/missions of AND? I love the work with AND and that is first and foremost for me and my horses, but I also don't want to give up something that we love to do. Cannot wait to hear your thoughts.
Kelli from N.Y.

P.S. I will post pictures of my boys on my diary over the next few days.

For me, personally, there was no way to reconcile putting the horse first, and being keenly aware of a horse's needs/wants with the competitive nature of people. Not to mention that there are few areas of competition that one can be bitless. I will never put a bit on my horse for the sake of showing or competing. If I did, in that second, I would be making my own desires more important than those of my horse.

Yes, there are gazillions of people who will say their horse likes the bit. Some on this forum will say it. Maybe they are right. I don't know.

If I could compete bitless, would I? Perhaps...to show people that it's possible. But only if I was so certain that my horse wanted to go as well. That he woudn't be stressed on the journey there, in a horsetrailer, and that he wouldn't be concerned with being away from his herd and the peacefulness of the pasture.

See, I don't beleive that my horse NEEDS to go to a show. That is not to say that some horses don't like to go trekking and exploring off the farm. There are many here that have shown clearly that their horses are happier for it. But to a show or competition? I don't know if one could convincingly argue that it is a need of a horse to do this.

They don't NEED us to ride them at all, if one wanted to argue extremes. Every one here draws the line where they wish to. For some, that means no riding at all. For some others, it does involve riding. We all draw it at some convenient point that makes some reasonable compromise in favor of the well being of the horses.

I have done a few fun shows with our local saddle club, because they do not carry any rules about bits or other tack. Heck, I could go in bareback if I chose to. It might take some convincing to allow me in with a cordeo only, but I do know I can go and socialize and have a little fun with my horse to a place he is familiar with, horses around him from his own herd, and I can ride with a bitless bridle.

If a show is coming up, I never commit until the last moment possible, because I wish to wait and see if Cisco will be up for it or not. He always has some way to let me know (or my imagination lets me think it). So sometimes we don't go together and I instead go without him to cheer on my friends and visit with others.

These are personal thoughts and ideas of mine. Not necessarily "AND".

As we say in the 'rules', AND is not about being against anything.
So you and your horse performing eventing is not against the rules of AND persé.

To check up on one self, if one is truely following AND, the rule in fact is thus:

Stay true to yourself and you stay true to your horse
Stay true to your horse and you are true to AND

If you are absolutely a 100% sure in your heart that the things you do with your horse is in his best intrest, then you stay true to yourself, your horse and ultematly, AND

On a more personal level, do I think it possible that a horse would truly choose a sport?
I can not answer, for I do not know.
I believe however that horses can choose whatever makes their human happy or what makes human and horse become like one. In spite of themselves even.

In the case of eventing. Let alone the fact that I have absolutely no talent in jumping
My heart would die of fright that my horses would come to harm by falling down or sustain injuries in the long run.
So for me, any sport would be out of the question.

I do not even put my horses on the trailer more than I really need to and 3 hours a drive is the ultimate limit.

My heart rate goes through the roof when my horses play to rough or trip and fall, or have s tiny fever...

I get up at night to check if they are well

I eat every new food myself to see if I get ill etc.

That shows perhaps the limits I go through for the well being of my horses.
And I think... I know... it is more like an overconcerned mother than a barn owner, yes.

Is that a good thing? I do not know. For now at least my horses are not complaining that I am over protecting them

I hope this answer is useful to you?

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www.equusuniversalis.com

i do not like competitions. Even when it is possible to do it bitless.
i do not like the people over there. They all care about themselves and not their horses.
Just let see the world what THEY do, that THEY are THE best no matter what.
No not my place...

give me the woods, heatlands, beach..the birds..the dears we see during our trips.
the silence...if it was there..you will hear in Holland allways noise of the motorways..
Then i am happy..and my horse too because we go somewere new and eat some new gras during our ride and that is the most important thing for him

Well, but that actually will change when Kelli starts to ride competitions!

But I do know what you mean. I have a lot of amateur dressage sports riders, and all they really seem to care about, is getting a rosette at the competition. That sounds cynical, but when I see that they buy a new horse for every new level (and therefore also selling the horse) on a two-three year basis, the I can't conclude that much else. Of course there are also people who just love their horse, ride out, have fun in the paddock at home and occasionally go to a competition for the fun, but they are (at least where I live) in the minority.

If you want to compete, nobody here will stop you. I myself probably wouldn't be able to only do it with the horses' wellbeing in mind, because I'll see those jumps and want to go over it - automatically start giving the horse more 'support' if he is less inclined to do so. But if you can, and are able to pull out after the second jump if your horse just doesn't feel like jumping today, then that shouldn't be a problem.

I do agree with Josepha by the way on the jumps: if it is a showjumping competition, the risks of hurting your horse is a lot smaller than doing cross-country, as long as they still have all the non-breakable fences and trees. If I would want to do some jumping, I would rather go for the showjumping because of that, even though those courses usually are much more tight and demanding with less space between the jumps.

Now I come to think of it, I think I would sooner go and do a showjumping competition than a dressage competition.

I don't really know what to say, but I do know some horses that really love to jump, I know horses that do it at liberty and I know cross-horses that really pull towards the jumps.
So if your horse loves doing it... and you keep in mind doing what's best for your horse... I don't know

I don't like competitions.
If I have to compete in a dressage contest with the friesian mare I ride, it will be a competition for Friesians only, and I will ask if I can ride bitless. And I even think I will tell him I won't do it. I already told him that if I could not give her treats I would not care for her at all anymore, we also talked about competing and I think he is starting to understand it now.

But that's because I don't like it, if you do like it... and you and your horse have fun, just listen to what your horse says!

Hi Kelli,

I don´t have much to add to what the others have written. You know your horse best and if you are really sure that eventing is what he wants, then maybe that´s the perfectly right thing for you. Only because I have never known a horse who really liked it, this doesn´t mean that there is none. I always take the easy way to see if Titum likes what we are doing: we only work at liberty, or with a lunge line around the neck for safety when we are outside. We avoid situations where I would not feel safe in this way, like cantering across a field with a group of strange, uncontrollable horses. This doesn´t take away all the possibilities for misunderstandings, but it surely reduces the amount of influence that I can have and with that, the extend to which I (accidentally) can put my will on him and ignore his feelings or needs. I don´t care for eventing at all, but if I would, I would do them when I am sure that I could do it with cordeo. We do have a member here who indeed rides showjumping events with cordeo (Danny from South Africa). And this has its benefits too, because he is the one who makes so many people think, not me who only goes for walks in the forest and trains on the paddock.

Please note that this is only my personal opinion. That you are a member here does not mean that you have to change anything in the way you treat your horses. We are not a closed community of people who strictly follow a certain method, but a study group where everyone can learn what he wants to learn and ignore the rest. And if riding with a bit and eventing feels right for you, then who are we to judge it? I am very happy that you are here, Kelli, and I really hope to learn a lot from you.

Warm Regards,
Romy

Romy wrote:



I second this - all of it. Somehow so much of what I'm writing here lately sounds so dour and closed. I don't mean it to.

It doesn´t, Karen, not at all.

Oh God, nothing that you guys are saying is wrong, offensive, close minded at all ! I absolutley respect your opinions - I try to keep my post as brief as possible, but as you get to know me, I am deeply passionate and opinisoated about my horses !! I am abosolutely trying to just get a feel for eveyones opinions here. I no longer event, although I am known to periodically show in a local dressage schooling show to test my horses and my own training, although I don't always agree with the judges. I had gotten quite sick two years ago and have only recently begun to ride again, that is how I discovered N.H. and groundwork , which in turn, brought me to AND. I have one of my students of 7 years who likes to event my Irish horse, and as long as the two of them are having fun and the rider continues to ride and care for Casanova in a way that is acceptable to both him and I , I will allow them to continue to do so. His parents and grandparents were all Hunters in Ireland, jumping and cross country is in his blood, and nothing gets him more excited than a good run cross country over some natural obastacles. He simply lights up !! I do draw the line though....Casanova is more than capable of competing at some very upper levels in eventing, but we stop at Novice, maybe I will let him do a training...simply because of the dangers of the jumping as you move up the levels.
On another note, every "school" horse in my program has been rescued and rehabbed by either us or the Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation and I do this to show my students and the competitive world that you do not have to have a "pricey" horse in order to train well and be successful. Our barn has done well in proving that to the outside horse world !!!!
I also think its important for some of us to get the word out to all of the competitive riders out there that there are kinder ways to partner and work with your horses, even if you are competitive. I am fairly new at working bitless and will soon introduce the cordeo, I am hoping one day to be able to compete one of my horses that way to prove this notion.
We all have a purpose in this world, I have always believed that my purpose was to advocate for the horse, particularly those horses who have been "tossed aside" because soemone thought that they weren't "good enough".
So I guess my feelings are that I will continue to allow my boy to compete as long as he is safe and happy and look to show everyone what can be done !
I truly appreciate your opinions. Keep them coming !
Kelli

I must say that some while ago I was thinking of maybe doing endurance with my horse. Because my idea of it that it is a horse-friendly sport (with the vetgates) but I won't. I'll don't quit on AND. AND to me is a life style and I want to stick to it becaus this is what I have been looking for. Sometimes it just is hard for me because everyone at my barn is competing in something and they push me then (because my horse has a good bloodline) and at home (my parents) kind of want me to go to competetitions again... and then they got me doubting. But when things go great with my horse or when I just go to her, I know why I choose this...

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I wish I knew your world

But competing is not the same as quitting AND! You're free to choose not to ride endurance, but that should be your own decision made on your own personal grounds, not a decision made for you by this forum. We're not against competitions, but we see that at the moment a lot of traditional competitors only think of prizes, and not of their horses and that is something that we feel is a pity. But if people can compete without getting competitive or overruling the horse in any mental or physical sense, then I don't see a real problem.

I think it's a great idea if people will go out and show others that you can also train horses in a liberal, positive way to do almost everything. And if your attitude as rider is right, then it really doesn't matter if you're riding a demo or a competition. The only thing for me is that I am more capable of dealing with unwilling ponies in a demo (because then I can distract people from that fact by talking and looking really nonchalant ), than probably during a competition.

Possibly someone else knows of one, but to my knowledge, if one is going to compete at all, endurance riding has the most horse protective system of any event.

The vet checks take horses out of the race before harm can be done.

I speculate also that this endurance competition and its training phase is about as close as one can get to the horse's normal life in the wild, but with a rider.

Some horses are so very physical that they may well enjoy it as compared to any other activity they might be asked to do.

I think your view, and Josepha's, Miriam are right on the spot ethically. Our goal isn't to NOT use the horse, not be with him, not play, even not work.

It seems more to me to be how to do these things in a morally defensible way that provides the horse the highest possible level of care.

This would include doing things as companions. Endurance riding seems to offer a wonderful opportunity to do just that.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Miriam, very well said regarding the competitive world. I know when I competed, and even when I do a competitive dressage test today (not as a kid !!) I do it for the fun and to test myself and my horse and how our training is going. Isn't that what "competitive dressage" is supposed to be about, continually testing your training against yourself? I know much of that has been lost, but there are still a few of us left !! I never though, want to judge everyone in the competitive world, as a teacher and trainer for 20 years, I have had many come to me from other barns/trainers who were competitive, but really knew no other way regarding their horses than what they were taught, wether it was unkind or not. I feel obligated to teach them that there are other ways, but I don't blame them for doing what they were taught.
I respect completely the whole bitless idea but I also believe that a "bit is only as harsh as the hands that use it" !!
Kelli

And another view might be:

The bit without reins and hands is still a piece of metal in the mouth.

And the saddle a dead animal skin on their back.

Could we give the message more clearly to them that we are a prey animal? And we have caught them in our claws and teeth?

When I taught the above was the content of the very first lesson for every new student, with the objective being for them to understand that we begin by insulting the horse, and should forever after, by how we treat them, be apologizing and asking their pardon.

And that was 40 years ago.

30 years ago I left it. Entirely ...

.. not knowing, but hoping, something like AND was in the future. I had given up until last year.

And struggle still to let go of the mindset I had way back about what a horse is supposed to do and be for me.

Donald Redux

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.