The Art of Natural Dressage

This is something I have come across and would like to see peoples take on it.

Why do you need a bit to get relaxation of the poll and jaw, which you you need to collect, no?

So if say you are using the BB if their is no bit in the horse's mouth surely then the jaw should be fairly relaxed unless the horse is tense?

Also the bit, pelham works on the curb and pressure to get the horse to relax it's jaw, so in some cases like when doing massage you need to put pressure on to relax the muscle, but not in all cases.

Surely it is possible to condition the behaviour of a relaxed poll and jaw on the ground then use that with the BB when riding and cordeo for those who do use them, not brave enough yet but am training my gal with one on the ground and have it on when riding.

I know something has been mentioned before but can't remember where?

Why is it deemed almost impossible to get relaxation of the poll and jaw without a bit?

I am not against the use of bits in the correct hands, but have been using the BB for awhile and learning along the way, but something says to me that to get get collection bits and not the be-all and end-all and neither is the BB as I have issues with that, but madam is fairly happy in it compared to any hackamore or bit.

About the argument that the jaw (and poll and body...) would already be relaxed when you used no bit: I have heard dressage people say that it was like chewing a chewing gum. That this would make you much more relaxed in your whole body, compared to when you don´t have a chewing gum (or when you are a horse at liberty ).

I don´t know what to think about that, because I have hardly any experiences with bits (and also not with chewing gums, which I don´t like). What turned it back to positive for my prefered methods and made me very optimistic again was that the same people said that singing or whisteling had the same effect like the chewing gum. So again, I will rather try to inspire Titum to be whisteling during our training than to be dependent on chewing gums to relax.

And in other words, this is just the same as Karen has already found out together with Paul.

Emmerie, here is the topic I started, and my conclusions, which may or may not be totally correct, but it feels right for me.

http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/viewtopic.php?t=713

A bit is not necessary to get a relaxed poll, and a relaxed poll is not entirely necessary if you are not using a bridle at all - as long as the relationship with the horse is one of complete trust, allowing the horse to be mentally relaxed .

Relaxation of the poll relates to a relaxed and composed mindset. The actual muscles which control the release of the poll contract and expand within movement - that is, it is not a static state, it is an emotionally serene and flowing state...it is a thinking state...a giving state. A state in which the questions asked of the horse are received by the horse easily and freely and the horse is responding calmly...even in the highest collection and most energetic movements.

To me, the relaxed poll is originally a goal of those who use bits. One hopefully seeks a soft contact and the same relationship with a horse that we strive for here...but we know that it's not always the case...so people devise ways to make the horse "give the poll" by submission, rather than striving to concentrate on the whole state of mind of the horse (or even the whole body of the horse, evidenced in many modern dressage riders that have a horse who will give the poll and hold it's head in a certain way, but by no means do they have a realxed body or a composed and thinking state of mind).

It's a complex issue to explain (or for me, to even understand) because as my friend Paul says, there too many nuances. But I think I'm beginning to understand enough to get by at the moment.

Just a day or two ago, referred by someone here, I viewed a website discussing breaking at the poll. It had good drawings to accompany descriptions of what is taking place in the breathing apparatus of the horse as the skull rotates on the end of the spine, and effects the windpipe.

Two events, if my memory serves, take place that tend to block the windpipe. The collapse of and narrowing of the windpipe, and the pressure of the tongue up into the soft palate causing it to intrude into the nasal airway.

What I strove for, and hopefully still have a good feel for, is to allow the horse to determine his headset based on his needs. Not just for effecting how the rest of his body works, but for the airways themselves.

We ask for athleticism, yet in some riding disciplines we remove partially the access to air. No wonder the horse sometimes fights and tosses his head.

Imagine how you would feel if someone curled your chin to your chest and it cut off your airway. Fortunately for humans we don't get as much effect as horses do in this posture.

Sadly for the horse, they lose a great deal of capacity to breath.

I don't care how a horse looks as long as he has the air he needs to breath to work and play.

Karen, your description of what is taking place is what I was looking for 40 years ago. You complete a picture for us that we need to refer to when we ride, every time, just as we check the gauges in a car we drive.

If I am forcing my horse into a frame that does not allow for the connection and flow and energy I see in your description then it is likely I am harming him, and damaging our relationship.

What can we say when we mean 'performance' in the AND philosophy that would distinguish it from "Performance" as we know it the competitive arena?

We seem to have to invent a vocabulary.

Though some terms in languages other than English might well apply. Another reason for valuing AND...that we have resources such as you, and we have a larger repertoire of syntax.

Defining our terms will, in the end, give us not only a way to define what we do to other horse people that are curious, but a way to help them understand that can change their consciousness.

The amount and kind of work being done here is truly wonderful and productive.

Now to work on a term, or phrase, to label descriptively what you said above.

Here is the most clear description of what AND, and you of course, seeks in the context of a frame without pressure of bits or reins.

"Relaxation of the poll relates to a relaxed and composed mindset. The actual muscles which control the release of the poll contract and expand within movement - that is, it is not a static state, it is an emotionally serene and flowing state...it is a thinking state...a giving state. A state in which the questions asked of the horse are received by the horse easily and freely and the horse is responding calmly...even in the highest collection and most energetic movements."

I think there is enough there for us to meditate on it, and let ourselves incubate it, and gestate. And see what comes forth.

I think I'll see, when I can ride again, what the horse tells me as I work to remember what you've said, and treat him the best I can in that way, your way.

Donald Redux

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Thank you Karen for that link very helpful

I think you have hit the nail on the head saying relaxed poll relaxed state of mind.

I would like very much to discuss various way one can elicit a soft and giving poll. So please add how you acheive it?

I am going to add here how I learned to do this with Cisco (specifically, releasing the poll) and the different way I have approached this with Tamarack. With Cisco, he was stiff and needed help to learn to release his poll. With tam, it's very different because Tam OVER bends and OVER flexes. So the two experiences are very different.

BUT, I am about to head out the door to go play with my horses this afternoon, so I will try to add to it this evening when I get home.

I feel very strongly that this topic belongs in the groudnwork section and not the riding section. Although the same technique is used on the horse as is used on the ground, it should always start on the ground and be well established before we ever ride.

As a young man I learned a way to do this that got both flexion and extension if I wanted it, and it's very gentle.

Of course using rope reins (though I certainly did it with laced English reins as well in snaffle). But I learned with the hackamore.

We would vibrate alternately each rein, careful not to pull AS we shook or alternately vibrated (either seemed to work, sometimes different choice with different horse).

A very short shake, and then taking up the slack in the reins and just touching the nose with the Bosal. Or in bitted work, the snaffle even more lightly.

Usually even the greenest of horses would try various things to see what was wanted, and most would at first draw their nose in as though to find something below them...logically normal for the normal horse.

Of course we then dropped the reins into a deep loop.

To get the extension of head and neck we'd drop-rein when they reached forward, as opposed to when they tucked, reaching back.

It takes a bit of thought and coordination but no more so than other tasks in training.

Where it excelled was with the bit spoiled horse. That is one that has had so much pain they are in reaction to it by how they handle their head.

Horses that throw their head up and hold their nose high, as well as those that try to grab control and thrust their head downward.

There is some message in that soft vibration that seem to get their attention without frightening them so much as other rein work does.

Even single rein work, as gentle as it is, isn't quite so good at this task.

Dakota had both. He would push his nose up, as well as over flexing. I worked toward him going with his nose in front of the vertical plane of his face.

For regular work, as the horse in liberty might do, I see them with nose just in front of vertical while running, trotting, etc.

Only in natural collected does it come back for a vertical plane of face position and then not all that much.

Especially in suspension gaits do I see them need to have the nose more forward. Not extended, but in suspension. I hate seeing a horse in Piaffe with his nose pulled in. It is not natural, even in the wild.

But then, these are my biases mostly, and not proven. I've just watched and listen for so long to what the horse is saying.

And when exertion is extreme that windpipe and nostrils must be free and clear, as they are when slightly before the vertical and on out.

I see reining horse trainers today using this vibration technique, though not with the finesse I'd prefer.

To get extreme extension a slow low handed vibration is used, with widely spaced hands. That will produce low long extension usually. Stretch that topline.

I am not a fan of working horses for very long in any extreme frame even their natural frames for different things they do. They do these things often only for a few strides if they are at play alone, or in flight or fight for longer duration.

They tell us at liberty, by not holding such positions long themselves, they are not meant to be anything but the expedient frame of the moment.

Using the extremes for suppling seems to be an excellent goal, if not overdone.

Moderation.

Donald Redux

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.