The Art of Natural Dressage

Working with the Horse's Initiative
It is currently Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:02 am

All times are UTC+01:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:27 am 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:45 pm
Posts: 788
Quote:
I tried to practice the jumping on and of one time with Beau but he just stops dead at the moment I shift my weight too much and then stands there looking at me so it does not work

btw I wanted to tell you guys that I sat on Beau again yesterday in the pasture and I felt more safe already... wonderful!

I just have to figure out how to keep Pascha away because when I'm on Beau he wants to chase Beau...


this is really great!!!

most of my horses did the same as this. just stoped, but i jumped off, then kept walking a couple of paces then treated. it took a little while, but they learned that it was fun. :D :D :D :D :D lots of my students played games. we did a "kind" mounted games. the kids learned how to make games out of training exercises. :D so it was not about the horses performence, but instead it was about how they got the message across. :yes: obstacle courses without steering with reins. hahah :funny: it was a good laugh watching them all over the place, but laughing!

i am so glad that you were on him! and that it felt good! no fear!!!! :applause: :applause: :applause: we just have to take little steps and be prepared to just let it happen at its own pace. fear is a natural way that your body protects you from something that it is not ready to do. but when it is ready, it is no longer frightning anymore. :applause: :applause:

_________________
just keep swimming, quote from nemo!:)
love jessy


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:45 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:00 pm
Posts: 1681
Location: Belgium/Tielt-Winge
UPDATE
I am confident riding at walk and even at a trot (slow). I am getting the feel about aids for turning and yields. Pascha leaves us alone and I feel like I really accomplished something. I spend my days trying to walk up straigt and getting to know my body. I love Beau for being so patient... :love:

_________________
Horseriding is an art

My horse is a beautiful living sculpture


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:59 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:45 pm
Posts: 788
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :applause: :applause: :applause: well done. you are listning to your body, to your feelings and emotions and most of all you are listning to your horse :applause: :applause: :applause: such strong foundations are setting you up to have the BEST relationship. :love: sounds to me you are both being patient and loving with each other :kiss: :kiss: well done :love:

_________________
just keep swimming, quote from nemo!:)
love jessy


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:19 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:15 pm
Posts: 584
Location: Georgia (USA)
I haven't read this whole thread yet - curse being at work all day and actually having to do work ;) but I wanted to share an experience this discussion has thrown into light for me.

Riding a naked horse - I think if I ever get the trust and courage to do this with Diego it will be the tip of the mountain top for us. This whole discussion has lain bare just how afraid I am. terrified, at times. It makes me sad. :sad: When I was a child I could often block out the "what ifs" even though I had had many bad falls & accidents. The biggest nightmare I face with my fears was a very bad fall I had 1 year ago - previously I had never fallen off Diego - ever in 13 years. One days he was feeling very verile and I was pompus and disconnected from him - I ended up being very stupid and goading/annoying him to the point that he threw me what felt like 18" or more out of the saddle...from the walk. :ieks: I landed on his neck, he threw me again and as I grappled for the reins I fell under him. I don't remember anything except flashes of me falling, and 'waking" seconds later with grass in my face feeling numb. My worst injury were badly sprained ligaments in my left hand, it could have been much worse, but I tell this to explain the horrid flashbacks I have when I'm riding and things get the potential to get 'out of control'. (I realize control is an illusion with horses) I often think about bailing much more than I used to.

I say this to preface the only story I have of the most "naked" riding I have ever done with D.
It was a chilly winter night, sometime in Jan or Feb of this year. I had been practicing alot of the "inner hind leg" stepping under ala Bent Branderup. I was also doing this bareback (with pad) for better feel and to save his back. Well I couldn't get the tackroom open that night due to the cold and the sticky lock so I gave up and decided to ride with a halter. The experience was freeing and Diego plowed forward freely, even more so than with the BBridle. (that showed me I was using too much preassure/contact even with a seemingly innocent crossunder bridle) Our session was going extremely well - soft, happy, energetic but content and calm. I got off and decided I would try a neck rope - well I didn't have one so I unclipped the halter and looped the leadrope under his neck and mounted again. :roll: Yes I did this with no previous signals or training together on cordeo cues... I see now how stupid this was but my momentary curiosity got the better of me and taught me a hard lesson about "preparing". :funny: D began to walk. I asked him to stop - he ignored me and kept walking. I should have taken this as a clue, but..well...I was too wrapped up in the moment of "Wheeee" to really realize what him ignoring me meant. We walked briskly along the rail for awhile, with D leaning heavily on the rope, as my futile attempts to ask for a slow down only caused him to brace. I gave it up. We had a nice walk until I got bold and asked for a slight shoulder in. I know he understood me, I cued the way I always do, for 10 years. But he had other ideas "Ohhhhh leg against my side? This means GO!" before I could shout any words of doom he had crowhopped into a trot, neck arched threatening a buck. I hauled on the rope to no avail. He arched his neck further and bucked into a canter (by this time I was having severe flashbacks to the fall and was terrified). He did just what I was afraid of - bolt. He rounded the corner of the arena and bolted down the stretch towards the gate, I did everything I could to stop him but as I now know with a cordeo that's impossible. ;) I finally in my sheer panic managed to realize the rope would never mean anything to him, that I could either dismount and hope I landed far away from his hooves, or try to ride this out. I was frozen with fear so dismounting wasn't an option. So I held onto the bareback pad for dear life. He rushed around the arena extremely unbalanced for a few rounds, any attempt to balance him and ask for shoulder or haunches in only made him mad. I soon noticed to my surprise he wasn't bolting anymore, he was actually doing a leisurely canter half the time and only speeding up at the sight of the gate. I began to feel hope that I'd survive. :yes: Eventually he lost interest in the running game and slowed to an abrupt walk, out of breath. I clung to the barebackpad breathlessly. And halted as soon as we got to the gate, I slid off him like a snake and barely landed on my feet for all the shaking and jelly-legs. He turned and looked at me rather calmly like "What?' while I just stared back at hime wild eyed. Needless to say we cooled out ON FOOT. :funny:
I felt embarassed to the extreme that I'd just been taught such a lesson, I was grateful to be in one piece though. It's that moment that now reminds me constantly to carefully prepare for any new things I want to introduce between us in training. The only problem is now those images of him bucking and bolting beneath me with no hope of me influencing him are added to the collection I posses from the bad fall.


So in short I wonder if I will ever be able to get there with him? The naked riding. I feel in someways like I need to understand why he ran, to feel more secure, even if I can't control the situation. I still don't know why he took off, to teach me a lesson, because he was feeling frisky, because he was making a statement about preferiing no restraint? Maybe all of them. To date that's my only [semi] naked riding experience, and it was a blessing and a curse at the same time. It really shows me also just how broken our trust is between eachother. :sad: I hope someday it can be mended. Anyways, I'll read the rest of this thread tomorrow as more and more posts are clicking with me, especially the "do alittle at a time". I realize I'm not just rehabilitiating his muscles and body/mind now from previous riding, I'm rehabilitating myself as well. And I need baby steps.

_________________
Diego's Journal
There's no more looking back - no more grey skies black.


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:05 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:20 am
Posts: 6072
Location: Dresden, Germany
Oh, that sounds scary.

I had a similar experience with Summy once when we were on a trailride two years ago and I was riding him and had Titum walking behind us (attached to a lungeline). In his case it was not a lack of preparation (because I always rode with a neckrope) and also not a lack of understanding. No, it was all my fault. I did not listen to any of his warnings, and there had been plenty. I'll just copy it over from his diary:

Quote:
For a rather long time everything went fine and especially Summy was great. But I could notice that he was ennerved by Titum's dawdling. At some point I noticed that I should get down and walk, because his walk became faster and faster, the downwards transistions from trot became much worse (normally breathing out, but at that moment I really had to use the line that he had around his neck) and his concentration was drifting away more and more. Titum's bucking and jumping around next to us also didn't improve the situation. But for some reason I stayed on Summy's back, although I (consciously!) knew better. Maybe it was lazyness, maybe not understanding that something as simple as stopping from trot could be a problem at all, maybe I just had to test some limits... anyway, when I still didn't dismount after the tenth warning or so, there was a situation when Summy didn't stop from trot anymore. I wondered if I should try to pull hard or just jump down in order to avoid a useless fight. I chose the latter, jumped down and landed on my feet - but I wasn't yet standing balanced when Titum crushed into me from behind (all this happened within one or two seconds, so he hasn't had a chance to stop), ran directly over me, got into some sort of panic because of that and off they went.

After I had stood up and realized that he hadn't stepped on me and only hit me very softly with his hooves, I whistled for them. They stopped, turned around to look at me, but then continued to run ( :sad: which they normally don't do, but yesterday I had really deserved it). So I went after them and found them eating on a meadow after ten minutes.


I had to think of that experience when I read this part of your post:
Colinde~ wrote:
I feel in someways like I need to understand why he ran, to feel more secure, even if I can't control the situation.


...because I believe there is another way which might work. Or at least it does for us.

I guess I am far from understanding all the WHYs in my horses' behavior. I don't think I will ever get there. But instead of this they have taught me to be rather sensitive to the WHATs.

I have learned to feel many of their intentions even before they need to put them into practice. They needn't start eating in order for me to notice that they are interested in the grass. They needn't run off before I realize that they are in one of those moods. They needn't buck so that I understand that they want me to get off. They needn't switch gaits by themselves or against my will to let me know that they want to.

The good thing about knowing about their wishes is not actually that I can keep them from acting before they even start (although this IS quite handy sometimes), but that in this way I can obey and do what they want me to do before they have to shout at me. I am sure that this sounds totally crazy to most traditional riders, but for me it means so much safety.

So for us the key really hasn't been understanding all my horses' reasons, but rather a combination of (1) understanding their wishes and (2) using that knowledge to their best in most of the situations we encountered. :smile:

That said, my opinion on this:
Colinde~ wrote:
So in short I wonder if I will ever be able to get there with him?


...is the following: of course you can. You needn't be some sort of superhero for that. You needn't even be a very good rider. You can reach that by simply listening to Diego and using what you learn from him to his own benefit. And that is something you CAN do, sensitive, thoughtful and loving as you are. :smile:


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:40 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:15 pm
Posts: 584
Location: Georgia (USA)
Oh that sounds scary. :ieks: When I was thrown a year ago Diego responded similarly to your guys: I sat up and the first thing I saw was him about 20 yards away. He looked at me wide eyed and got this "Oh $*%^" look on his face, dropped his croup and bolted away. Which was not good because we were hosting a Pony Club clinic and kids and ponies were everywhere. >_< The look of distress about my fall though stuck in my mind, no vengance or anger, almost fear and remorse (remember I felt a different way about horse motives back then).

I'm really liking the discussion (I read the rest of this topic this morning). In Pony Club I was taught the emergency dismount from the canter to pass my last test, I actually had to do 1 footed landings as I'd sprained my ankle the month before and was just off crutches :roll: (oh the things kids can do). Needless to say I'm not currently confident in my ability to vault far enough away from his body that I won't get nailed with a hoof if he bucks. I'd been taught to "ride it out" too, but I'm starting to see that maybe it doesn't have as much merit - if the horse is distressed and wants to be free why deny them that? Although there is one major issue where I choose to stay on his back (when dogs try to attack us) for various reasons.

I guess I'm starting to do like Jessi suggested, baby steps. I ride in alot smaller increments now. Currently I'm having alot of anxiety about our back field - it's beautiful and perfect for galloping or just hacking. But since it's further away from the herd and very "nature like" (all the wild animals deer, turkeys etc gather back there) D has expressed alot of anxiety back there. Before I'd fallen into the traditional "Oh no no we can't go down there without me on his back, I can't control him" but now I'm thinking - he's nervous and I'm nervous about HIM being nervous :roll: maybe this "ride through it" deal is just a crock. I'm thinking spending some quality time down there grazing in hand or lunging at the walk (stretching) would be benificial to both of us and take the nature booy men out of the picture.



Romy wrote:
That said, my opinion on this:
Colinde~ wrote:
So in short I wonder if I will ever be able to get there with him?


…is the following: of course you can. You needn’t be some sort of superhero for that. You needn’t even be a very good rider. You can reach that by simply listening to Diego and using what you learn from him to his own benefit. And that is something you CAN do, sensitive, thoughtful and loving as you are. :smile:


Thanks
:)

I'm not ready for a completely naked riding session again, (or one without a cordeo even) but the thought occured to me upon the mention of baby steps: why not just sit on him in the round pen? Maybe that will be the first step to peace between us over the past. It's nice and shaded and we often spend our "quiet time" in there, doing tricks, lunging, letting him graze, grooming him and Sugar keeps us company by watching our sessions. And for me - it's a small space with a soft ground and he has no reason to want to go running as there is grass there! :funny:

_________________
Diego's Journal
There's no more looking back - no more grey skies black.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:59 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:32 am
Posts: 3270
Location: New York
Quote:
I'm not ready for a completely naked riding session again, (or one without a cordeo even) but the thought occured to me upon the mention of baby steps: why not just sit on him in the round pen? Maybe that will be the first step to peace between us over the past.


I think this is a great idea!

Colinde -- I took a bad fall off of Stardust last autumn and totally identify with a new kind of fear after a serious tumble. I actually am not riding him any more (long story!), but I am starting to back Circe, my five year old Haflinger bombshell.

After lots of ins and outs and wondering about how to do this and control issues and fear stuff and old training habits and more control stuff (and on and on ad nauseum ;) ) I finally had a brainstorm.

My current mantra with her is, simply: I don't get to have control of her until I don't need control.

How this has worked is precisely what you're talking about above. When I put tack on her, I found that I didn't have enough discipline to stop myself from hauling on her head and trying to MAKE her do stuff, which she thought was utterly stupid and set up our riding as something unilaterally different than anything else we did together.

So, I began by just sliding on her back (actually, first just hanging over it and loving on her), while she was eating dinner, just for a few seconds. Which built up into minutes, which then built into eating dinner in the round pen rather than her little paddock, and then, finally, into wandering around a little bit on our ranch with just a halter on as a last-resort steering tool. I'm not allowed to tug on it, though, unless she heads us directly into the mare that bites at the end of the row or things like that. :funny:

This is working beautifully for us! And if I get to a place where any control stuff kicks back in, we back up into a smaller area that feels manageable until we move can move forward with confidence together.

It finally occurred to me that the only way to get over my control stuff was to build patience and trust with her (from both directions -- from her and from me) without control being a part of the equation. It wasn't her job to suffer through my getting more confident while I bossed her around...

I actually think this is the way I'm going to teach my nieces to ride when we all get settled here in NY. We just sit until sitting is so boring that walking becomes the obvious next step. And we do it (with helmet, always -- I'm still dizzy from a concussion from my fall almost a year ago) but no tack -- they get to learn to feel the horse and grab mane. And we don't trot until walking is so boring that trotting becomes the next step. And so on.

I'm reminded that the Spanish Riding School in Vienna puts their riders on a longe line with no reins (and I think on a bareback pad) for FIVE years until they develop a good enough independent seat to earn reins -- I'm trying to do that on my own with Circe, without someone holding on to the longe line.

it's proving to be exactly what we both need.

Hope this is helpful!

:)
Leigh

_________________
"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:52 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:15 pm
Posts: 584
Location: Georgia (USA)
Leigh wrote:
a new kind of fear after a serious tumble.


Wow, you know - I had never thought of it that way but that's exactly what it is for me! A NEW type... something I've never experienced in all the 18 years I've been riding horses. :ieks: I hate it =p lol.

I searched your journal and read about the fall. Geesh! I can imagine that causing nightmares for a very long time. Props to you - it's an inspiration that you're retraining yourself to "let go" with your filly. :smile:

(I LOVE Haflingers by the way! :D )


Leigh wrote:
I found that I didn't have enough discipline to stop myself from hauling on her head and trying to MAKE her do stuff

Me too. I end up beating myself up over it, but I can't stop it the next time... like you pointed out the only option seems to be removing the option to control. Yesterday when I had my amazing ride with D I had simply clipped the reins to the halter (that's about as control free as I can be right now without him being in the roundpen of course). My "controling" rein signals were usually pretty small, but at the same time extremely firm and insistant. They lose their intensity and effect in a halter - it makes it pointless to "fuss" with my hands. I found it very frustrating but also freeing, I spent alot of time bobbling my hands around in various ways to experiment with the reins in new ways that aren't "pull based" but work by lightly touching D's neck. As a result D was SO much more happy and free and less "bracey" against me. I'm wondering if I should change ALL our ringwork to halter - the bitless bridle is great but I've found it still allows me the chance to be pretty demanding by accident when my hands start trying to control everything.
Leigh wrote:
So, I began by just sliding on her back (actually, first just hanging over it and loving on her), while she was eating dinner, just for a few seconds. Which built up into minutes, which then built into eating dinner in the round pen rather than her little paddock, and then, finally, into wandering around a little bit on our ranch with just a halter on as a last-resort steering tool. I'm not allowed to tug on it, though, unless she heads us directly into the mare that bites at the end of the row or things like that. :funny:

Sounds great. I spent hours hanging over my pony's back, or laying on her, facing her tail while reading a book (so comfy - she had a huge fat pony butt! :D ). Because of D's height and my inability to mount him without an object (my pony was never a problem, when I was little she would pick me up with her neck) I never built the same relationship with him by just "being" on him while he ate or relaxed. I'm sure our relationship would have been very different now if I had. I'd love to lay on him in his pasture, but that's a royally stupid idea right now - as the pasture is huge with valleys and hills and some hidden holes & gulleys (the horses avoid these but if he got the urge to gallop around a bit and had be as a destraction on his back I'm afraid he might fall into a hole). Thus the roundpen seems the only option unless I graze him in the barn yard area and lay on him.



Leigh wrote:
I actually think this is the way I'm going to teach my nieces to ride when we all get settled here in NY.
[...]
I'm reminded that the Spanish Riding School in Vienna puts their riders on a longe line with no reins (and I think on a bareback pad) for FIVE years until they develop a good enough independent seat to earn reins -- I'm trying to do that on my own with Circe, without someone holding on to the longe line.

That's funny - I read something like that about 4 months ago and it made me realize why they don't ride like alot of conventional riders - they never learned the bad coping skills like I did. it's not instinctual or deemed worth it for them to grip, tense or grab... I do wish I'd been taught without reins, or even possibly western where contact was light. When I was plopped on a horse though the first thing I learned was steering and holding onto those reins... uhg. (I started huntseat)
My boyfriend desperately wants to learn to ride and I want to teach him (we simply don't have a horse large enough - I think it would take one like Arthur, PiePony's horse ;) ) and I have already warned him that even though he simply wants to be a trail rider - he will have to start on the lead & lunge without a saddle or reins so that he doesn't develop bad habits like I did. :twisted: My 15yo cousin wants to learn as well, she hasn't sat on D since she was 4 because she lives far away. But I've offered to take her out to the barn this summer and would love to get her up on him bareback and just lead her around. Diego doesn't generally like other riders (for instance refusing to go forward with my mom :funny: ) but that's because they are trying to "make" him do something. Plus he doesn't seem to carry the mistrust of people over to kids. He has an extremely soft eye with every kid who pets him.

It was very helpful actually - thanks Leigh! :) It's an amazing feeling to finally meet people who've been where I am, from everything from controling, to a massive fall and fear, and rebuilding....

_________________
Diego's Journal
There's no more looking back - no more grey skies black.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:00 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:10 am
Posts: 3688
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
I am currently working with a student with precisely the same challenge being discussed. Far too many years of this brave, intelligent, and capable young woman being allowed, even taught to use force to make a horse do something, but too small herself to win and riding a horse that gradually learned from her and other students to fight back.

Now I have her on a very well trained but also roughly ridden horse (by many different riders) of good size, and Anglo Arabian, and she get's to see and learn the difference.

Now and then when her form breaks down, and she loses her center this horse, cabable of floating like an angel, will throw his nose up and start stiffening up, hollow back, forehand drilling into the ground, dragging hind quarters, etc. And as I put her back together by coaching the correct forms, sequences, and especially the power in softness and releases she can feel him changing under her ... going back into his lovely collection and suspension in all gaits.

I see that rein releases, while I've worked to develop them into an art form, have a counter part in the use of any aids, natural or artificial. Teaching my students how to "ask," and then say "thank you," even before the horse decides to agree, has a wonderful effect on the relationship of the horse to the handler. Horse's I use for students love to come to me for conferences. I discuss with the horse the events just happening and how we might help the rider hear what we are telling them when we go stiff and bouncy and drop out shoulder on turns or out whole forehand when our back, neck, and mouth or nose are hurt.

The student hears, of course.

I am so proud of this particular young lady. Though we are working together in what she thinks is conventional horse handling methods she is learning "the ask," replacing the demand. She is learning the greater importance of the thank you than the request. What others' call the release (as in pressure release) I refer to as showing respect by having good horse manners.

I use word pictures to get the point across. I'll mention that horses, when they put pressure on another horse often let off the pressure long before the other horse conceeds or complies. Bared teeth and snaky head rarely go so far as an actual bit. Same with the kick - it's usually never delivered. And when I have an itch, as a horse (but of course as a human too LOL) all I need do is point to that same spot on the other horse to get him started scratching me with his teeth.

I ask, with students who have the habit of pulling and forcing, to come up with as many ways as they can demonsrate throwing the reins away. The object is to ask by other means, but of course including actually dropping the reins.

She's inadvertently caused this wonderful horse to "stick," over downward transitions including halts. Today we had to go back and do that lesson again. Namely: you do not stop a horse with force, you stop him with asking and thank you.

Asking, of course is to stop moving your center forward, to relax downward, to breath out more than in on each breath, (that tiny moment when you push that last bit of breath out is something the horse feels very strongly as a message from you of confidence and relaxation and they wish it too for themselves, so drop their energy downward as well). Then you drop the reins.

It would seem counter intuitive - drop the reins before the horse has even slowed? Yes. You can always pick them up again, cue softly, remembering ALL the aids one can use for downward transitioning, and drop those reins again.

In five minutes he was back to the level I had trained him to with her as rider some months ago ... from going on and on around the riding hall not slowing at all, pushing out and against the bit (blasted things) with the corners of his mouth to save the bars, to quietly coming to a halt with the reins laying on his neck for the last three or four strides.

I'm still working on other things he does out of being a lesson and loan horse for too long. But he loves it when the rider is gentle with him, and polite. He has a good sense of humor, loves to fake biting, but never bites, wants to help in every way (you should see him try to help put the saddle on - it's a riot), and like all horses deserves respect and good manners from humans.

And he knows how to ask for it and teach the rider - at least the ones that listen carefully as I act as his translator. "He's now, by going to that nose up hard bouncing jarring trot, telling you that you are coming down on his kidneys and yanking the bit - please get over your center, reach down to the ground with your legs and anchor your little fingers to his withers so your hands stop bobbling." There is almost an instant shift in him to smooth suspension, lovely soft collection, a Ramener with out use of the bit, and energetic reaching under with his hind quarters.

It's so dramatic the rider cannot miss it. And if the rider is as patient and commited as the horse they will learn to find it again, just as the horse teaches it.

Thank you for the inspiration to tell this little story, and to speak once again about the polite hand, and the rein that is in release far more than in ask - the path to bitless and especially bridleless riding. I believe this student will reach that level soon.

And of course I do it now with her on the lunge line and will continue - though probably not for five years. ;)

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4

All times are UTC+01:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited Color scheme created with Colorize It.