The Art of Natural Dressage

Edit by Romy: This topic was split from the AND Encyclopedia



Madeleine, Glen, Josepha, Miram, Karen, Helen,Barbara, Ania (do I have everyone?)

I have been thinking about and wanting to respond to Madeleine's comment:



Especially the issue of "yield," at the jaw.

I had almost the exact same argument I'm about to present way back when I was in my teen years with vaqueros that taught me horse training.

They too talked about and worked toward the jaw yield as a must to acquire collection.

In fact they started horses in a snaffle bit. Then moved up to La Jaquima. Then to the spade bit.

I had my horse, Poncho, at the time, who I had ridden only with La Jaquima and he had no trouble at all with collection, nor with yielding, and in fact, I believed he was more relaxed and easier then horses trained to jaw yield.

So I present again, my argument.

The 'yielding' is in the horse's mind, not his mouth. And there are, as I count them now, three avenues to this 'giving' we call 'the yield.'

One with the bit, another with any bitless bridle or halter, and then there is the AND, or classical yield that comes from the exercises done with the horse using no constraint on the head and neck at all, but simply the development of the natural postures the horse brings on his own to the menage.

I can do either of the former, but am an amateur (though my Koko Hano Hano would collect at wild play at liberty with me) at the latter, that you folks here at AND practice.

Without meaning to offend in the least, I think the argument on collection coming from yielding the jaw is passè.

AND creates some new equestrian language, and in so doing both incorporates, and excludes.

We encorportate, for instance, Madeleines term for reward release out of dismounting and freeing the horse, UPR, Ultimate Pressure Release. This term, while now confined to a single act, just as has happened with 'Chase the Tiger' is bound to expand to other areas of our human-equine interaction that other confine to 'training,' while we already are vastly expanding that concept into it too needing another descriptive term.

There is Wild Play. There are the cycles of long patient ask-wait-give-receive and ask-wait-refuse-accept experiences (how will we make a name for THAT I wonder) with all it's power that is so far from ordinary horse work as to be almost interplanetary.

So, when a horse is asked to collect, and it gives at the poll, and we feel the softness and lightness we need somehow to differentiate from Ramener as it's now known. Without a bit it needs a new name.

Interesting that I'm still thinking about the same challenges I was 60 years ago, isn't it? I was about 14 or fifteen when I first argued about this.

And shortly thereafter I no long could count myself as a gente decente, having sold my soul to the devil and became a professional with bitting horses I rode and trained from then on.

I'm still embarrassed that I was so ambitious. Even if my own horses were rarely bitted.

I guess I am atoning even today.

If you were me, and wanted to do it right, where might you go, besides here, to find enough information to start a movement among horse people in your area (mine in this case) for bitless, and even bridleless riding and training?

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Indeed Donald, I think I take notice of just about everything while training, accept if the horse 'gives by the jaw'.
It is not a button to push to ensure collection

It al starts in the mind and then the whole body of the horse... strange that people have so much attention for one area that they think needs to relax when it probably is the bit and their focus on relaxing that area with the bit that keeps it tense

Your last question I did not quite get. Do you mean other fora, books, trainer etc?

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com

There has been a lot of horse training education that focuses on dividing the horse up into parts.

Not a bad thing in and of itself, but not if the whole horse is not seen, considered, responded to, as you point out the need for.



"fora?" Ah, the singular for FORUM.



Yes, all of the above. And an invitation to just ruminate on the subject and share what you come up with.

As you know, I can give great advice.

On the other hand, I'm as subject to not following great advice, even when it's my own, without a lot of struggle.

And that, of course, can be overcome by input from others that makes me think and think and think, as you folks here do so very well.

Those of you that are finding yourself successful with spreading the word about AND philosophy may have some experiences to share that would help me get started and keep going.

I know I have a story to tell. Over 20 years of somewhat less than good treatment of horses, and struggling with it nearly the whole time.

The horses I've known that taught me.

The people that gave me insights, sometimes by good example, other times by bad.

I think I can hear the rustling of a presentation coming together in my head.

I'll have to take this up with my wife too, as she is a published writer and very good at presenting ideas both in detail and broader concept.

My request is a quiet and non demanding plea for help with doing my atonement. I mean to do well by the horse.

Part of that will be to celebrate those that already are doing well by the horse. AND fits that model better than anything I've seen so far.

And I suspect there are a lot of horse people around that ride and train and play with their horses more privately because they have not knowledge of a forum that agrees with them.

They just need a chance to come out and play in public.

Donald[/quote]

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

It is time you tell that story and get it published
I will buy your book for one and put it also on the actual and virtual shelf of Equihof if you would agree to that

So.... it is forums?

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com

Well, getting a publisher might be the easiest part. My wife is one.

Getting it all written down, now that's another issue.

But I do believe it's inevitable.

And I'll take you up on it when the time comes.

Let me see now. Singular and plural.

Forum is singular, so it's very possible that Fora could be plural.

So then I could, when speaking of the plural flora express the singular with florum?

I so admire folks that actually are conversant in other than their native language.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Madeleine wrote:


Within this description, without the use of the word "yeild" I don't think the term has to change. Although we don't use a bit (and sometimes nothing on the head at all), we still arrive at the same result. And you are right Donald, the poll or jaw doesn't need to yield because through this type of training, the horse carries himself.

Ah but the poll still has to relax does it not?

In my gals case it is her Trapezius muscle that we need to help relax to get her poll to relax so she can become collected, as my friend pointed out the other day

That brings to mind two questions, the first being based on an observation from as long as I've been around horses.

I've seen horses move in a collected and extended manner, at liberty and being ridden as well, with their nose well in front of the verticle.

Their topline lifted. The buckskin mare that I admired recently and thought about buying would be an example. Of course she's 4 and never been ridden, and is barely handled.

So maybe that question you ask needs to be revisited. I don't know. But you make me think.

The second thing that comes to mind is what will you do to relax the Trapezius muscle?

Thanks, Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Emmerie, I'm thinking in cordeo terms only. My bad!

If you have a halter, or a bridle, and only if you keep a contact (light of course), yes, the poll needs to relax and give...but Josepha is right in that it needs to come from the horse's mind. With the philosphy of AND, it seems to come easier than any other way I have ever seen. For some it may seem that it would take longer...but for both Cisco and Tamarack, learning to collect in hand, with praise and treats, they are both learning to carry themselves in less time than all the time I have tried to acheive it any other way (with Cisco). Once they have it, my only job is not to destroy it with too much contact.

I had promised to write about how I learned to release Cisco's poll, and I haven't done that yet. I'm so sorry! Here it is in brief: It is started on the ground, with a single lead line...working beside the horse in an in-hand position at a walk, in a circle (no more than a six meter circle. The bend of the horse is achieved naturally (the horse does it naturally) or the girth area is tapped or pressed with the hand, or the forearm, or you may tap with a crop...once the bend is achieved, you are already halfway there. On this size of circle, the horse may go nearly in the shoulder-in position. A good stepping under of the hind legs is good too.


Then the lead line, which is kept only on the lightest contact (or just at the point of no contact) is tickled or vibrated. When the horse dips his nose slightly in response, all contact is released at that second and the horse may be verbally praised so he knows he's on the right track. Then you tickle or vibrate it again, the horse then drops the nose a bit more, and release. This is done until the horse is moving in the circle with you, in a good bend and the head is carried very low.

In hand, the lead line may be held almost in a position as if you were riding, or it may be held low and in a driving position. It varies for every horse, and one should experiment to see where the horse responds best.

This is very similar to how it would be achieved with delicate half halts on the inside rein and a bit of inside leg (on, then off) while riding. In fact it IS done while riding, once the effect is acheived in hand.

Once it can be done in a walk well, then a trot can be tried. Both sides should be worked equally.

For a very stiff horse, this work can take many sessions. Or then there is Tamarack, who I can't do this with at all, because he instantly overbends!

In time, the head lowering can be less and less, but should always be relaxed and not tense or high...it then just becomes a good place to start before riding, and in riding it becomes a cue to calm the horse and restablish the bend and relaxation of the poll if it is lost.

All touches on the line or reins should be very, very delicate. If it's not, then a bit more tapping should be done on the girth. The tapping should not be hard.

Within AND, this can be done - softly, and take as much time as it takes.

Another behavior which is beneficial and goes hand in hand with helping the poll relax, is to ask the horse to bring the head around to the shoulder, on both sides. Again, the head should not be pulled around, but encouraged...tickling the line again, and releasing and praising for every inch gained.

Both these exercises should be done with kindness, calm, (in my case also with a lot of cookies) and always with the goal of keeping the horse relaxed and composed. This SHOULD feel very, very good to the horse. Releasing tensions should always feel good, and should never turn into a battle.

In the end, you should have a horse who will give his head from side to side with just a whisper of a touch on the lines. Just a lifting with barely any contact at all, should result in the head moving to the side you have requested. Of course, you then have to keep the whole rest of the horse also as calm and willing.

What this does, if successful, is to create, or recreate in the horse, a sense of trust in the rider's hands. It is then the rider's responsibility to the horse, not to break that trust. The reins must always be held as if they were gossamer threads that could break if you even breathed on them too hard.

Another beneficial exercise for relaxation is, of course, head down.

Ok then how do you see your horse has a relaxed poll, please?

With my gal her muscles tense easily and so do mine and yet when we play she will collect, but not quite true collection but heading that way. As I am still learning what all this looks like as I found out that madam does do a good impression of collection but it is false collection, as head is up feet come under and her hock flex but her back is still braced and hollow.

I can see how it has to come from the horse's mind the relaxation, so I guess it goes to me finding the ways to get my horse to relax her mind and trust me, but me also trust and relax with her as that is still very cautious between us for a variety of reasons, but not just with her either other horses too i can have tension with, but I also hold it in my muscles too.

To get muscle to relax you have to release the tension they hold as very much learnt in pilates, but it can take many ways of releasing the muscle, also the emotions are stored in the muscles too, so maybe some body work again for her and stretches and compression work what I am not sure, as I know to get some muscles to release cos they are very taught already you need to compress them slightly and then let them go back to where they should be and also movement and massage to release them. i am a bit lost sorry and now seemingly rambling on

What I just don't see is: why would you even bother with the horse's jaw?

It is just the same as with fiddling with the head position to get collection: that is not possible!
The head position comes from collection, never the other way around!

You do not need to relax your horses jaw, you need to relax you horse.

What ballet, dance or fitness instructor is obsessed with a pupils jaw? If I took lessons and someone were stressing out my jaw all the time I would leave for sure and thing: what the heck?!

Yes, when you stress your jaw that means that you are stressed and not relaxed. But while simply people fiddling with your head and jaw help?

Work on your horse's mind first, then his body and then: collection.
Without any 'jaw' business at all...

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com

Ah, so well put, Josepha.

I will remember - a tensed jaw doesn't mean one must 'relax the jaw.' It means, relax the horse.

I think you are a good teacher.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Thankyou both of you, now I have got it, I just couldn't get my head round it

But one thing as I am quite good at tensing my jaw I can relax it but it is normally tense through not breathing properly and cos I am stressed or angry about something. So maybe learning to do massage will help relax the horse so it knows how to let go of the tension as when muscle have been taught to do something for a awhile, like mine and my horse in-advertantly then you have to re-train the muscle memory and I am talking about muscle that are tense. But then again I guess that is what we are learning here how to get a horse to be relaxed so it can become collected, I guess?

Did you look at Ralph's video?

http://gallery.mac.com/ralphgoessens#100000


With Ralph's skill one can watch the horse do as horses do naturally at liberty. That is, they have periods of tension commensurate with the task at any given moment.

And can move quickly from a state of softness to tension in various body parts.

Some schools say that when the horse chews and licks he is thinking.

Ralph's shows clearly that he is relaxing his jaw and anticipating the treat/reward Ralph is drawing from his pocket.

And his nose is not locked into any particular position, though he can ramener or extend his nose, and open the angle as he needs to to be truly giving as Ralph asks.

It is so much a pleasure to watch such cooperation and coordination between horse and human.

He gives me something to strive for.

This below bears repeating:



And more. That we and the horse aren't locked into being one way or the other, but enjoy the freedom of the continuum from one to the other.

Work without bits, and especially without bridles, as those of you that use the cordero, fascinates me. And brings back my youth when I trained so many different horses to work without.

I am going to recapture that skill in time, I'm sure. I may even start with Dakota. It certainly can't hurt him.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I just saw a segment on the news about people who wear a kind of tooth protector like sports players wear, and the fit is done very carefully to help the wearer's jaw relax. This jaw relaxation in these people then helps them to relax and in some cases to help straighten their spine, have better balance and strength.

http://www.ppmmouthguard.com/

Isn't that concept fascinating though, in light of this conversation?