The Art of Natural Dressage

As already mentioned before when riding we have to keep a circle of energy. A circle in the most ideal shape, If the circle is broken it does not roll beutifully, it rocks a bit and then stops as there is no flow of energy.

Classical riding is based on it: you need to ride your horse from back to front. If you are influencing the hind end by creating energy you have to influence it from the front aswell- that is how the circle (of energy) is made. So thereofore reins are needed. Not to loose the point I must stress that I am talking about (higher) dressage movements where the horse really needs to use all it's body in order not to damage itself and move fluidly, not just turning a horse right-left etc if you understand what I mean.
In classical riding it is belived, proved and tested and carried on. What are the views of AND about it as ideally you do not use bridles/reins as I understand?

Regards,
Eda

That is true to my opinion.
This has everything to do with the rider's energy and body awarness and controle.


You do not influence the front, everything works together. Your whole body togehter with all the work you and your horse have done on the ground create strength, flexibility for the horse to carry his rider, which allows the horse to be balance.
Not to loose the balance; that is all in the rider capability not to disturb the balance.


That is an opinion in the classical world (which people are entitled to of course), not a fact in all the world.
As we humans are not perfect, we make very much mistakes with reins influencing an important tool in the balance of the horse: his head and neck.
AND therefore sees the reins only to compensate the rider's shortcomings. Often it creates a false sence of balance.
The horse is an intelligent and (at least) in terms of biomechanics highly superior to humans.
Therefore we only need to help the horse to be strong enough to carry us by groundwork and then study or own body & mind controle so we do not influence the balance of the horse negative in any way.


AND states: if you want to ride ANY horse, no matter what you do, the horse will get damaged without the proper training on ground.
Second, therefore riding is something that comes last in the training and probably once a week for 10-20 minutes would be a lot for most of us.


Well, for that you certainly do not need reins


Indeed, within Classical Riding.
Lot's of here were classical riders, I myself was a very fierce defender of classical riding too, for years.

I have found gaps in the classical system. Those gaps do not do the horse justice in any way.
To me, the horse is always right, the horse is perfect.
Nature has given the horse everything it needs.
We humans do not need to know better (and we don't!), we do not need to 'perfect' or 'alter' the horse with artificial means (like reins).
We only need to study and follow the horse's lead, Nature's lead.

Reins etc. are all about the shortcomings of the human NOT the horse.



However, everything stated above does not mean we are against using reins.
We simply study the horse, his biomechanics and his spirituality to overcome our shortcomings as best as possible.
Some of us still ride with reins sometimes.

Me for instance, I do it when I have a clinic or for my centered riding exam I have too (glad I could talk them in to letting me go bitless )

Warm regards,

Josepha

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Maybe I should add (I thought that would be logical, but just to make sure):

Everything that Classical Riding Art teaches us about the correct seat is based upon nature's laws.

Therefore we, within AND, use the classical seat.

To us AND is a step further then Classical Riding Art which is the mother of AND.
We just evolved beyound domination and seeing humans as 'teacher'.

We do not seek to dominate the horse, for he is the teacher.
Dominance silence the horse.

We want to hear the horses every whisper so we can learn from him.
He is the teacher and the only true master.

Warm regards,

Josepha

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Thank you Josepha for all your enthusiastic explanations (on all topics I must say ) which I appreciate much. I do not think that I want to belittle the AND, but I do have some doubts about it, aswell as I have about classical riding.

By bringing examples fom classical dressage world I only try to say that it works for so many masters and shows some really good work (like Bent Branderup, Manolo Mendez who I don't hide to admire), though yes there is a lot of bad handling and riding to be found under the name of CR aswell. Equally and maybe more I can see bad riding gone with bitless. But, why haven't the masters redjected the bit, the spurs? They claim to have a good reason for using them in their training (not always, but still). Doesn't they want best for their horses? These are mostly rethorical questions, but you are welcome to answer them.

I undestand you Josepha that maybe the Dr. Cook's bridle is suitable for your ex-bullfighting horse- I do not know it- you know better, but I have doubts that Dr. Cook's bridle or totally bridleless would take us to that level where classical riding horses "end" their training.

You say: "We do not influence the front, everything works together. Your whole body togehter with all the work you and your horse have done on the ground create strength, flexibility for the horse to carry his rider, which allows the horse to be balance.

I still have no aswer how? veverything works as a hole if you stiil influence the hid-end, but not the front? Based on what you say that?

I agree that the head is at a place where the balance gets easly distured by changing the position of it. But classical riding sayes that we have to influence the horses' movement without changing it's head and neck posture.

I also agree that the horse is perfect. Also human is perfect. But I belive in own world. It is not "pefect" at all to put human and a horse togeather. Does not biomechanics, which you say that are part of ADN as well as classicl riding, say that in order to have a aids-circle you need reins?

We all have our own opinions and as youself state and I belive too have the right to do so. But doesn't there is only one way how horse moves(correctly) and how we can ride him correctly not?

Thanks again for your posts and intest to share your views.

Eda

Well, I have to be an enthusiastic 'answering person', since I am one of the founders of this forum, I feel obliged to answer these questions.
I am glad you appreciate it and I know you do not want to belittle AND, so do not worry.

Is so happens I fully understand you, I was a year ago where you are now.


It [possibly] works for MASTERS yes.


I admire Bent as well and you do not have to hide anything
But what is good work?
We all have different standards, we all are different.
I am not a classical Master and I am not Bent.
since I am not, there is a whole lot that can go wrong when I am given bits, spurs and whips.

I do not want to harm horses in any way but I do want to learn from them: hence AND.


Indeed, but whatever name it carries is of no real importance to AND.


Indeed, we reject riding horses without propper preparation, using them as bikes, bit or no bit.
AND is not 'bitless riding' however bitless riding could occur within AND.


I can not answer for them. But seeing the time frame, Animal wellfare was never a high priority. (it still is not but it is getting a bit better).
Would one have laughed where a master to go totally bitless, would he still have customers when he rejected bit and spurs? They laugh now even, today!
Already the Pluvinel was laughed at for rejecting punishment and implementing rewards!

In the 15th or 16th century a horse and rider were burned to death because the horse carried out high school movement without tack!
That most have been witchcraft, so they said.

I any case, I am glad I was not the BBAC then and there...

And an other thing, Classical Riding has always been about tradition, keeping everything as it was, following up to keep history alive.
Having said that, at the same time, every classical master contributed something new.

As did la gueriniere, when he added 'shoulder in' as the mother of all excersizes, for instance.

To me the bottom line is that the great masters always have shown the following:
- a horse is not made to be ridden
- using the tack needs to be in the least possible and slightest way, it needs a balancened and correct seat and a highly sensitive and skilled rider
- a horse needs to be completely fit and healthy not to mention build for the work we want it to do: carying us.

As my standard is really high concerning horse wellness, I feel safe to say that 99% of all riders do not measure op to the standard of a Classical Master.
Yet they ride, and they ride with bits and spurs even.
They harm their horse (as did I)!
Eventhough it is not intentional and one is still learning, still the horse is harmed. How soft you are does not matter.

Therefore I came to AND. Take away all (most of) the tack so you can not force the horse and hear every whisper of communication so you can learn from your horse!

Since we acknowledge that uncollected riding is harmful to the horse, we minimise riding.
We therefore work for the gymnastics on the ground.
We ride very little and every time we see that there is not enough balance and collection (which we can not faulthy force, thinking we have it..) we get back to the ground.

AND is about the same as is Classical Riding, but we take it a step further, into the future if you will.
Iron in an animals mouth is simply not needed nowadays (there are no wars to fight... we do not depend on horses to survive.

To me now (I am sorry) it is rather barbaric.

And let's not forget why the bit was forged about 1300 B.C.
To dominate horses.
Or do you honestly believe someone invented the bit as a fitness tool for the horse?

Buddha states: Because it has been so for many centuries that does not make it true.
Just because it is written in many books, that does not make it true.
Because everyone believes it, that does not make it true.

Test every 'truth' and find your own truth.
I have found mine within AND.

Look see, the earth is not flat afterall...



The road is longer no doubt. The horse's responses you'll get will be less 'flashy', you can not make use of the over sensitive tongue, jaws etc.

So you have to have more patience and more sensitivity and feel, but the effect will be more pure and real when you achieve collection.

And within classical Dressage it is stated that when you have the basics, you have the rest.
I know this to be true, so the bit is of no role of importance within classical dressage.
Can one not get the same result without the bit, that to me means, you then have to force you horse to do what you want with the bit.

I can not understand why people keep on believing that a horse can only perform high school with iron in his mouth.
That is underestimating the horse, that is underestimating oneself!



Yes, you have your answer. But you do not see it as one.
You ask for quick fix solutions.
'How do I block the front of my horse to make him rounder when I activate the hind legs without a bridle?' That is your question.

The answer is: You don't!
Due to the groundwork the horse is able to round and collect when you get on.
Due to the relation ship and communication between you to it is easy to redirect energy.
The rest is body and mind control over yourself, the same as with CR.

You first have balletstudents perform years of excersizes to strengthen and stretch before they get round to really dance.


Then if that is so, why would one need a bit?
Why would one need a bridle even?

I believe the same thing, know it to be true and do not allow myself to make mistakes by using a bit or bridle even.



A horse is always a horse, a rider is only a rider on a horse.
Horses are so fine tuned towards energy and every tiny mistake within biomechanics working together or towards human state of mind... a human can hardly be called perfect.
In this respect he is total pupil in needing to mastering those things in order to learn to ride a horse without harming.
He can learn this only from the horse!


That is a 'classical riding' believe.
Why are those reins? Because you make a horse loose balance, you then need a rein, for you can not help a horse loosing his balance without it.
Who's shortcoming is that?

As a horse is not made to be ridden, prepare the horse before you get on, then you do not need tools to try and fix harmful situations which 99% of riders are bouned to fail with anyway...


Yes there is, but getting there within Classical Riding without first harming your horse untill one figueres it out (if ever) is nearly impossible.

It is a fact that there is only one way of correct movement as it is a fact that Rome is build.
The best way to get to Rome might not be the same for everyone.
It depends on each and every one's way of travelling, the place they leave from, the weather, who they meet, their health etc etc.
Do you see what I mean?



your ever so welcome!


I hope I have given you some clarity to why we attend the path of AND instead of the Classical one...

Josepha

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Well.. from what I was thought in advanced Classical dressage the reins are not used to have contact with the mouth but to move against the neck and communicate that way. This is why the advanced riders can ride with one hand and only shift loose reins.
So why can't the movement of the reins against the neck be replaced by the movement of the cordeo against the neck?
If you see this picture, you see the little difference in there the reins are and where the cordeo would be.


This is what we are exploring here.


And I want to add... AND has no goal of making picture perfect movements, is all about the best movements for and by the horse. This is why there is no need for spurs to force a horse into the picture perfect exercise.

A horse can do everything we ask at liberty... I saw the ultimate proof when my one year old horse made a Capriole wich was the most perfect I've ever seen, although I've been to Jerez. It was amazing!
So we are so bold when we pretend we have to teach the horse al these things
We really just have to make ourselves invisible and weightless on a horse and hope they will allow us to join in their magnific movements

yes and hear hear!
but then we would probably have this discussion all over again for our horses are not yet advanced enough for the loose rein...

So in addition:

Hence the training on the ground instead of under the saddle.
To overcome riding an unbalanced,uncollected horse.

What a horse shows not without bits & spurs, he is not ready to show.

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To me everything comes from the seat and the reins have very little to do with things, apart from that most have need for them cos of lack of training in us and that we give to our horses, so we need them for breaks and steering cos of our lack and also for safety, when out hacking.

Unfortunately too many rely upon them for balance as I have at times in the past, now I use them differently as I am learning to do so, and find that it is to help slow or hold my horse if she slips when spooking at the fire breathing saber tooth rabbits and the pigeons and pheasants around us

And now as I refine my seat and balance that I use them less.

Again...such a cool discussion. Eda, you post such thoughtful questions!

I think it's important to remember that AND is a journey. Just as NHE is. Those that came here in initially simply wanted a place to discuss "hot" topics without fear of being banned. AND, in my mind is not a method...it's an exploration of what is possible.

Those of here, at least initially I think, gave up bits. That is a given. They have no use for most of us. I have not yet had my horse tell me he prefers his old snaffle over the soft leather over his nose when I am using a bitless bridle.

I ride my horse occasionally when he is not collected. I try to keep it to a minimum. But the bulk of our training together is ground work with only the cordeo because that is where the trust of the horse for the human within training is built. It is where my horse becomes strong and initially learns the movements and the cues for those movements without being burdened by my weight and potential (likely) imbalance. He enjoys it because he is not forced to learn, is rewarded often, and he knows he is becoming stronger. His mind is becoming stronger as he begins to look for answers to my questions and learns that is ok to question my "authority". His soul is freed when he has this freedom. This freedom of choice does not take place when reins are attached initially. He has to learn that he has the same choices with a bitless bridle on, but it is harder for him to trust, because a bit or a bridle has always been a signal that I am in charge, not him. The cordeo was a totally new beginning where my big strong horse had the choice to run off if I was mean (which I wasn't, because I didn't want him to choose to leave).

The lack of reins, and learning all of this without reins means your horse is free to choose everything. He is free to choose to listen to cues or ignore them. He is free to run off (with me on him if that is the situation). He is free to just be with me if he chooses.

The cordeo takes away much of the "power" a human has over a horse.

So AND (as is NHE) an exploration of how we can be with a horse, train a horse, and unltimately ride a horse, with the horse freely choosing to be there with us or not.

How much more beauty can one ask, than a horse that freely chooses to allow you to ride without something on his head? So the act of being bitless is a step in the right direction...it takes the iron out of a horse's mouth (we won't argue whether it causes pain when the reins are slack). It takes away some power from a rider. The rider must then rethink how to do things if they have less power to make a horse do anything. The cordeo is a step farther, because then, truely, you have no power to stop the horse if he decides he wants to leave you.

So it makes you dig even deeper, because it becomes an exploration of what your horse really thinks of you...and whether you have to change how you are with horses in order to convince them to like you enough to do all these things with you. Sure, you can still make them do some things...with a whip if you wish to use it harshly...but the idea of AND is to explore the depths of the relationship, putting the horse's welfare first (by allowing them free choice), and then teaching the horse things that will only benefit the horse.

Then finally, you can get on and have fun, but it is fun TOGETHER with a horse...and not in spite of what the horse wants.

As I said, I ride my horse. Sometimes not in collection. Others do as well...but it is after they have learned to listen to the horse. They listen for the horse to say no, and they respect the horse enough to stop when the horse says no.

So a bitless bridle isn't a sin. Reins are not a sin. But the emphasis should never be on control of the balance of the horse. One should always strive to be balanced with the horse...on the ground or on their back.

Alexander Nevzorov and others (many - he isn't the first) have proven that it can be done. Reins may make it a more expedient process for the human's goals, but it doesn't allow for the horse to have a choice. AND isn't about expedience - it IS about allowing the horse a choice. It's about exploring a different approach that isn't mainstream (but by no means rare).

Karel you really say things so well, thank you for your post.

I applaude you too Karen!!!

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Wonderful thoughts here and Karen really made a good post

Bianca, I belive the advanced dressage you are speaking is the "old" dressage for example like on the pic of Loch's book. Masters at that time used SO heavy bits with ong shanks that the horse flex from the poll by just the weight of the bit. And pay attention that the horse overbend- just gone round-, the rider leaning to much back while if I am correct doing passage. It might be just a poor painting, but anyway.



Well, you can say that I am looking for quick fixes if you like, but in my mind I am looking for the most simple working method to train a horse to use it's body correctly- this is what I look.

But, now I am really getting the point of the essential point of your views. So, you are saying that as the horse is capabable of having learned reflexes withing its behaviour you are beliveing that it's also capable of having those reflexes within it's body movement to achive higer collection which the horse would never achive at libery and that without influencing the head? To achive the same Haute Ecole (without the "bad" sides) without a bit or blidle? So you never create the circle of aids which is after all is not needer for simple work in the saddle, but for the higher steps of it?

I am open to find better ways, new ways, to see if they work. I do not doubt about the philosphy and overall handling of the horse in the AND, but at this point I cannot belive it will lead to the real collection when the rider is onboard...
To be honest- Mr. Nevzorov's horses are tense (physically, as well as I belive that mentally) and lack in relaxed and long stepping behind, but the main question is that maybe it that we can just never train the same, real bullfighting horse (I don't think that they should be held at all, but just to get an example) or Haute Ecole horse(again without counting the "bad" sides), but just thinking about the collection, and all that without influencing the horse from the front

Regards,
EDA

Dear Eda,

Thank you for you reply

I've read your lines quoted at least 4 times but can not seem to grasp it's intend. My mistake I am very tired and my head is full with Harry Potter (opening premiere in Belgium tonight at 10.30 pm..

If I do not give the right reply to your thought, therefore, please let me know.

First of all, I think that unmaunted Haute Ecole is not unnatural in any way.
You see (young or wild) horses perform all these moves in nature.
However, not all horses can perform this to the same degree and our domesticated horses are a bit of cauchpotatos compared to the wild mustangs so, alas, we humans have to install back what we have taken by breeding, keeping in small stables and paddocks etc.

next to that, very much horses loose there natural abilities due to the fact that they are being ridden... Let's be honest here, most horses simply are damaged by their every day riders and a natural piaffe and levade is lost for ever.

Wihtin AND, we try to enhance these natural abilities as much as possible.
The horse has to be fully in controle of himself, only then the natural ability can be restored as to our AND fylosophy.

It is very much possible to make horses train and enhance collection with only a cordeo, that far most of is are already.

I do believe you think that possible?

Now the step to riding. That is indeed most difficult.
Balanced is lost when we get on. Only with having our own balance, can we help the horse regain balance.
After that, we can have the horse collect because of the muscles and flexibility we trained on the ground but only a short while.
After each ride you know that there is still more work to be done.
You work on collection again and the next time you get on hopefully you will feel that it gets easyer for the horse.
And it will.

The horse will ofcourse never walk an hour completely balanced and collected under his rider.
But tell me, what horse ever does, even with bit?

It is a quest, just as with CR, but I think we set the jump even higher for ourselves.
But the holy grale is no longer the perfect ride, our grale became the perfect truly collected free and spirited horse.

Mr. Nevzorovs horses have a past, just as mine do.
I am sure, if they were ridden in a bridle they would not perform better.

And I have yet to see a horse truly collected and at the same time fully happy and satisfied under a rider for more then 2 minutes...

For the way of you having trouble believing what we say, you should
Not just simply take everything for the truth, not with CR, not with AND or any other way.

But research and try what you feel could be right for you.

For now... I am having to stop with Jamie, his is 22 and tired from his hard live in spain.
Owen has not been well due to poisoning, for a year now, but I hope he will be well and we can show true collection also under the saddle.
Ino is far to young ....
So, time is of the essence here.

Warm regards,

Josepha

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Eda, I'm thinking that a lot of what we have seen so far from Alexander (riding) has been horses in progress...that is, except for Lipisina (or it may be Perst, I get them confused in some photos), what we have seen is horses on the road to collection, but not really collected yet.

There are some new photos on the Nevzorov photogallery (Lidia's photos), that show Kaogi being ridden. I see better collection, but not yet perfect. He is learning thought and is obviously getting better.

http://hauteecole.ru/en/photogallery.php?gid=28

I have been told by my trainer friend, Paul, that I will not be able to achieve collection with Cisco, while riding, in the cordeo alone. I disagree with him...although it will not happen fast. Because there is no step by step method available to me, I am feeling my way along, and just enjoying the training. I honestly don't care if he is ever fully collected with me on his back, with a cordeo alone...but it's an absolute blast trying to figure out how to do it! the same person would have told me that I wouldn't have achieved collection inhand with a cordeo too...so I will delight in surprising him one day...if not with Cisco, then perhaps with Tamarack...but I do hope with both horses!

Because I ride with a bitless bridle, I am not going about this in the purest way...I don't at this time wish to raise a horse purely with a cordeo...because for me, it has it's limitations in terms of safety. If I trailer anywhere, my horse must be tied with a conventional halter for the sake of safety. When I ride, in most instances I prefer to have the bitless bridle. I only ride with the cordeo alone in the arena. This is my own shortcoming...my own fear expressing itself. I don't know if that will ever change (I hope it will). It depends on the developing relationship between me and my two boys.

But I can look at what Alexander has achieved...and although I may not agree 100% with the restrictions they wish to place on students, I can nevertheless see that this IS achievable for me, to some extent or other. It's up to me and what a good student of horses I can become!

Seeing improvement in Kaogi's carriage over earlier photos, tells me that perhaps even Alexander is feeling his way along in this...as it must be a different challenge with each horse. It is strangely comforting to me to know that even Alexander is still searching for all the answers!

And don't forget that Kaogi is still relatively young (although I don't know his exact age).

See, I don't really worry about what is "supposed" to happen...in terms of flow of energy in classical riding, or the exact proper positioning of the horse when collected, because I am experimenting and there is no one that can tell me exactly what to expect. It's rather nice not having an exact picture in my head. I can then be happy for my horses in the strengthening of their bodies and their hearts regardless of how far we get with this.

The process itself, of teaching collection without limiting or influencing the head of the horse directly, with the only true goal being the strengthening of the horse, is absolutely achievable. How far that collection goes, especially when I'm mounted, is the unknown factor...and even at that, it's only a little unknown.

Back to Kaogi, I think in time, you will definitely see an even more relaxed horse performing ever more perfect movements. I don't think what we see now is a static situation. It is ever changing, ever growing, and I delight to think that one day Alexander will choose to share more freely what he learns with a wider audience.

I just thought I would post this one photo (fairly recent) from the NHE site.

http://hauteecole.ru/en/photogallery.ph ... =28&min=45

Could Kaogi be more underneath himself? Yes. But at this point in his training, for not having a rein, he is every bit as "collected" as you would see in modern dressage. And perhaps for his age, this is all one SHOULD expect.

Perhaps he has a way to go as far as classical riding goes...but DARN...he looks so perfect...he is calm, he is proud, his neck is so perfectly and smoothly arched. The pair look like a beautiful statue. I have to say also that I have always been in awe of Lidia's photographic skills too, but that is beside the point.

I don't think we can look YET, to Alexander for what a finished, master horse would look like. We are able though, to watch a thoroughly inspiring process in the works.

Edit: the link doesn't work to bring up a photo...but follow the link!