The Art of Natural Dressage

Hi
I am restarting a PSG dressage horse. I have done a lot of foundational ground work and single rein work with him to help develop his confidence and trust in me. When I got to two rein concentrated work and started playing more with the movements he sticks his tongue out of the left side of his mouth.
He had his teeth done in March
I had some chiropractic work done on him
I had body work done on him
I had his saddle fitted to him
I have tried a single joint loose rein snaffle and a double joint loose ring snaffle.
I am also doing EFT on him

I am thinking of other things to try but I would love feed back from this community as I believe there is a wealth of knowledge out here. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks
Johanna

Welcome, Johanna!!

I think that we will need some more information before anyone can really give useful suggestions for your specific situation.

Does he do that when you ride him (or do groundwork) without a bit, too? In which situations does he do it? Are there other changes in him except for sticking out his tongue?

Warm Regards,
Romy

My Proloog stopped sticking his tongue out of his mouth immediately when I stopped using bits on him. I haven't seen his tongue since .

Anneli

Thank you for looking at my question.

When I first got him he did it any time the rein was picked up. Now I can do work with one rein and it never happens. During his warm up when I do a lot of strechting it never happens.

With very little rein contact I can play with shoulder in and leg yield and again it does not happen.

When I get him more collected it starts to happen. He first will grind his teeth and then the tongue with pop out. So my gut feeling is it is an anxiety issue more than a pain issue.

I have not tried the hackamore yet. When I started him on the rope halter and long rope his first inclination was to stick his head straight up in the air and fly forward. My feeling is someone trapped him into two reins and constantly nagged at him to go forward into a strong contact.


I am still experimenting with the natural way and the "classical ways" because I have to earn my living in the classical world and that is a whole other topic. The end result unfortunately is this horse will need to go in a snaffle.

Please let me know if you need further info. And again THANK YOU!

From a biological and biomechanical point of view I would say he can not be collected as he needs a relaxed jaw for that. When he grinds his teeth and stick out his tongue, his does not have a relaxed jaw.

Rotate your pelvis, tuck in your belly and engage your buttocks. You are now collected.
Now grind your teeth and stick out your tongue... what do you feel?
When I do it, my neck and back starts to ache and I can not move my pelvis freely.. collection is lost thus.




If it is bitless riding you are looking for, please let the hackamore on the shelf as it only produces more pressure on the horse's delicate nosebone (not much wider then a pensil!).
I suggest that you try a Dr. cook, a soft cavesson etc.
Check some bitless bridles out here:
http://www.equihof.be/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_24

my personal favorite is the soft cavesson as first produced by antoine De Pluvinel.



Thus, if you ask the same as you do with the bridle and bit, now you get the real information from your horse (eventhough rope halters can be very sharp still).
He can not do correctly from a biomechanical point of view what you ask and without a bit he can show more than just grinding his teeth and sticking his tongue out.
Leaving away mechanical 'aids', like a bit or gadget gives you a more pure reaction c.q. information from your horse.
In other words, now you horse is able to tell you what his natural and real reaction is to the aids and asking of his rider.



still everything remains the same. I gather you want this horse to be able to collect.
So you'll have to train the classical excersizes that will help him to straighten and become strong and flexible.
All the old master will tell you as such:
yeilding, shoulder in, transitions etc.

But those excersizes have to be trained correct in order to produce collection. And every move has to come from the horse's hindquarters to the front.
Not the other way around.
To achieve that, it is much more easy for you to train without bit (and bridle even) as then you will know when it is right and when not (as you already experienced with the rope halter) because your horse is able to tell you.

Once true collection is achieved from the excersizes, it does not matter much if there is a bit or not. It's not supposed to be used anyway.

For more info on (bitless) classical dressage please read:
www.bitlessdressage.com

If you have any more questions, just ask

Good luck!

Warm regards,

Josepha

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www.equusuniversalis.com

The way you describe it, the sticking the tongue out is likely a sign, that he does either not understand what you what, or does understand, but not know how to accomplish the task. So he gets internally stressed, which can result in sticking the tongue out.

That does then lead to what Josepha did already write

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Andrea
http://www.youtube.com/user/FinhorsesAndPinscher
http://basichorsemanship.blogspot.com/

The best re-start you can give any horse is to teach them to collect themselves. Then, once you have that established, and you have his trust back (which has hopefully eliminated his stress), you have to ensure that anyone riding him doesn't then break that trust, or he's back to square one.

What Josepha says is the honest truth. One does not need contact of any kind for collection. Contact can destroy a horse's faith in his own body and his own ability to balance and collect himself. We don't have to rebuild what we don't take away in the first place, but so many trainers don't realize that.

So I would, absolutely start bitless, and if you can, I would start him at liberty or at the most, in a light rope halter, and begin on the ground.

Teach him ramener.

Teach him ramener into movement, and build it up through slow forward gaits and slow lateral movements until his confidence in himself returns.

Then as you see he is ready, you can ask the same things from his back. Realize that once you are on him, his balance is immediately compromised and he must relearn all that you've taught him from the ground. However, having once achieved it on the ground, he will learn this new step more quickly. Again, you take it step by step, from ramener at a standstill under a rider, through a slow progression into forward walking movement, then through slow lateral steps.

Only later, from the ground first, you carry this teaching into other gaits. Then finally, these other gaits under saddle.

Your goal from the first day through the last will be minimal interference from the reins. Again...no bit. If you trust your own judgment about the readiness of your horse to go on to each new step, you can do it all in a cordeo in a controlled area (arena). But, just as with reins, the cues given by a cordeo must be whisper soft...feather light. Don't try to make him do anything with a cordeo. It's rather pointless as it's very easy for a horse to push through it, and it destroys the potential of the cordeo for delivering very subtle and exquisite cues. Softness in everything. All contact with the horse...your hand, a whip, the cordeo, a lead rope. Soft, subtle gestures. No cue needs to be harder than a fly walking across the hairs on his skin.

Keep all sessions of teaching ramener, specifically, very short, and very rewarding. You can have multiple sessions in a day, but keep each session to just a few minutes. Then go do something that your horse finds fun. Sit and let him graze. Go for a relaxing walk. Jog side by side. Anything that is for HIM, and for his pleasure. If you will use treats as a reward, you will see the progress come much faster. We have a topic here on training with treats if you are unfamiliar with it.

You reward the tiniest try by the horse to do what you're asking. If it is the very beginning of ramener, it may be only a slight dipping of the nose. The faster you are to reward the tiniest muscle movements and the slightest guesses, the faster the training will go. Train your eye to see a very tiny try. "Microshaping" each step of the way, will help the steps come and go more rapidly. The sooner you tell the horse he is guessing in the right direction, and the more rewarding you make it for him, the more eager he will be to figure out what you're asking of him.

If you take a look in the groundwork section, you will see all the starting points. There are several stretching exercises you can also teach him from the ground that will help him rebuild his body to rebalance himself and give him added strength or relaxing ability.

Will you be selling him, or are you keeping him, or are you restarting him for someone else?

His tongue, which I too, believe is a sign of stress, or anxiety (as is the grinding...some horses do other similar behaviors such as shaking the head rapidly up and down, etc in response to pain from a bit, or the expectation of pain, even if the pain is no longer occurring).

If his head goes up in the air in a halter, then no one previously has taught this horse to relax his poll and give himself to the wonderful feeling of roundness. When a horse will do this on his own, without a mechanical device of any kind forcing him into such a position, he will feel euphoric.

His neck will lose it's tension from stress and it will be replaced with the healthy tension of pride. His back will not be tense, it will be lifted, rounded and strong in its carrying power. But he must be shown that he is capable of doing this for himself, for his own mental and physical health. Until he can find that within himself, with your help, he should have no one on his back.

Trust first. Riding later!

Besides...the journey of learning to teach a horse how to seek and proudly display his own balance and collection is a fascinating one that shouldn't be hurried. Savor every moment of it. It goes by too fast as it is.

By the time you have helped him find this, I would venture to say you will find a deeper relationship with this horse than possibly any other horse in your life so far...because he will have led you through this education.

It's pretty cool.

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

Karen, what an amazing reply, so wonderfuly written. I want to print it off and show it to people who I know would benefit from it....but I just know they're not ready for this just yet.

When my horse was in the vets the other day, I had so much stick from the yard owner about everything I do with my horses. When I finaly had the courage to fight back, this is what I tried to tell her, but I know I didn't explain it anywhere near as beautifuly as you just have, I'm very good at feeling the way to be with horses, but often find it difficult to put all that into words, so thankyou.

By the way, her reply to me was, 'That all sounds very romantic and lovely, but how do I enter into dressage competitions like that?'

So like I say, some are just not ready yet, and it's not something any of us can force. So Johanna, you can see this all requires a huge shift in your way of thinking towards horses and training if you want what Karen has just described.

I wish you and your horse lots of luck and happiness on your journey, and most of all, have fun

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We never stop learning

Wow how interesting and so honestly true what you've written Karen

Sorry for writing it here, but can I use your post in my diary Karen?? I've been talking about my personal 'guide lines' which determine my interaction with horses. And I love this way of thinking!!!

Back on topic:
I've known a horse who did the same with his tongue. It was stress and fear which caused this behaviour.
So I really do think that Karen's advice is relevant to this problem.

Kind regards,
Yvonne

I cannot thank all of you enough for your thoughtful and detailed response. The unfortunate thing is that I do a lot of "restart" horses like this one. Those who have manifested their fears from what I would call modernized dressage in worse ways than this lovely horse.
My plan was to find like minded horse persons who could continue on with this type of training path with my restarts. However, I am finding it so difficult to find people who will even meet me half way. So I am quickly filling up my barn with horses I am afraid to let go.
In any case, I am again very grateful to be able to hear from all of you and your true concern for the well being, emotionally mentally and physically for these great animals and I will work with the advice you have given me.

This topic is moved from the Diary section.

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Johanna, I don't think this horse will need perfection, but you can of course be a little picky about where he goes and choose a person by personality more than skill. Once a horse is sold on, you lose the control over his life. He could be sold on again. You never know.

But our beloved Donald (Redux) here on the forum has retrained horses knowing they will be sold. What he does is give them the best possible foundation so that a new owner doesn't HAVE to be heavy on the reins. He will even instruct the new owner for a time. So there are always things you can do to improve a horse's quality of life, even if you cannot give them perfection their whole life.

The thing is with this horse, is that he has been phsychologically damaged, and giving him the gift of his own self respect is a really huge gift.

Teach him that his opinion matters, and if one day someone is very rude to him, perhaps he will feel confident to be rude back and to let the emotion out rather than trying to hold it in and having it manifest in nervous twitches and cold sweats.

You have control over this moment in his life. You can help him, even if it's just for a short time.

Read fast. Go play. Show him that you recognize him as a sentient, thinking, emotional being. It will change his life whether he moves on or not.

And thanks everyone for the nice comments on my reply. Yvonne, of course steal it! I'm honored!

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

You sure are in a tough situation!

All I can tell is from my own experience with Sjors. He didn't stick his tongue out, but rather pushed his head down to the ground and started gnashing his teeth every time when we were long-reining, doing dressage. When we switched from the bits we had tried to just a halter with reins attached to it, it did become much less, but with him it only really stopped when we started doing dressage at liberty/with a cordeo. I always tried to train with reins that were hanging through and only steering by my own body position, but I think I still was too controlling over him with the reins, giving too much negative feedback (which I of course just saw as new cues for not falling out on the volte, not slowing down in the trot, not rushing, not... ).

For your business, isn't it possible to train horses bitless/bridleless and show the people that you sell them to how great they are even when riding without bit/tack? Maybe not just in your advertisement pictures, but also when you have the future owners over, or on movies on the internet.
If you're still in a very traditional minded environment, just the fact that they see that you can actually canter with a bitless bridle might be a huge revelation and might open up their minds to more.

I sure hope you can find a way to combine both your job and your passion!

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New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage