The Art of Natural Dressage

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:58 am 
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But that's another story and beef of mine I'll likely not win ... the semi backward reclining pumping posture of the dressage rider ... yuk.


Well, you'd win it here. I want to try your suggestions so bad! But I'll have to wait until the middle of the month when I'm back from the clinic in Kelowna, when I will be riding again.

I can't stand up in my saddle to save my life, so I want to try this and see if I can learn how.

Saddles shouldn't rise up in the front at all. Give me a good, flat, neutral saddle. They are so hard to find.

One day, I'll have my spanish/portugues/something-or-other saddle!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:33 am 
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Karen wrote:
Quote:
But that's another story and beef of mine I'll likely not win ... the semi backward reclining pumping posture of the dressage rider ... yuk.


Well, you'd win it here. I want to try your suggestions so bad! But I'll have to wait until the middle of the month when I'm back from the clinic in Kelowna, when I will be riding again.


No offense, but if you bonked your head hard enough you want to review your thinking processes. Especially anything that might have risk of another injury. Please be careful. We need you here. I need you here. And your horse Tam ... well you know he needs you there.

Karen wrote:
I can't stand up in my saddle to save my life, so I want to try this and see if I can learn how.


Fascinating! Really! Do you wobble? Or just can't maintain the standing in motion?

Maybe isolating muscle groups (you know about that, right? :wink: ) and working them could build up what you need.

That is how I taught this particular leg model. In fact, in the future, once Glen has it (and I think she might be there now) there is one more exercise that gives even more precise control. The toe lift and turn.

Simple, but demanding. That's because the muscles running anterior along the shin are used. And it's weak until it's built up.

"The muscles in the anterior compartment include the tibialis anterior, extensor halluscis longus, extensor digitorum longus, and peroneous tertius."

In effect you put the heel down rather than just weight it down, and by lifting the toe, very much changing the dynamic and mechanics. And this is how the heel will get very very deep. You see this, or did, on the most dedicated riders on hunter jumper trials. Or in training.

Karen wrote:
Saddles shouldn't rise up in the front at all. Give me a good, flat, neutral saddle. They are so hard to find.

One day, I'll have my spanish/portugues/something-or-other saddle!


Oddly enough the profile that worked best for me in training work was a small (I had slim hips back then) very low roper western saddle built for calf roping. One had to come out of it far faster than getting into it.

Low cantle, low pommel. It's the tree I salvaged and had my own saddle design built on for western work. And I rode it in almost a hunter jumper seat ... my rear rarely touched the cantle at all.

Seemed very easy on horses too.

For English and jumping work my Pariani could not be beat. Lost in the fire that took most of my gear. I cried when I found out.

In 1961 it cost me $900 and change. Today, you would pay in the high 3,000 to low 4,000 for a similar one. Beautiful work.

And what I would look for in design in a treeless as well. I could go on and one, but I'm boring even myself with my over the top enthusiasm. :wink:

Take your time getting back on. There is no hurry.

Donald R.

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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:03 am 
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Donald, do you think this is a similar effect to what I was getting with an exercise I do with beginner riders, learning to sit a trot bareback.

I ask them to alternate between stretching down their heels, as close to the ground as they can get them, with their toes lifting up to the sky and out, calf muscle and thigh loose against the side of the horse. And then, relaxing foot, allowing the lower leg to just flop, and lifting the front of the thigh ever so slight upwards, as if an invisible thread was pulling them skyward by the knee, and holding it there for just five or six steps, before going back to the downward stretch for the next few steps. A few cycles of this usually gets them seated really deep and secure, no more bounce. It seems to help them find their correct balance point.

It's just something that I played around with myself, so haven't really thought about the mechanics, or "correctness" of it.
What do you think?

Oh.. your saddle! WHat a heartbreak!
You know.. until you can afford the saddle of your dreams, maybe you'd like to have a look at this one.. my tack of choice is the Christ's Lamsfelle Bareback pad.. nothing like the commonly available pads.. gorgeous, correct position, heaps of security, cushioning for horse and rider, two layer of merino fleece, one up for you one down for the horse. But with complete feel.

Cheers,
Sue

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I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,
But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:20 am 
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For goodness sakes...you will NOT believe this.

My last post ... mentioned my Pariani saddle?

For the heck of it, right after I posted I searched for the company (some companies take trade ins on saddles) and an odd little listing popped up.

Someone had an older Pariani for sale. Turns out she's in my state. Turns out she is interested in moving on in horse handling toward something we are familiar with here...and...yes, I'm buying her saddle.

She tested it and described it to me. Very old but in good shape, and testing the tree and gullet showed no breaks. Pariani's are so well built.

And it's hardly used. The stuffing has not even compressed. The billets look almost new.

And the price (keeping in mind I paid nearly a thousand dollars for one new back in the early sixties) -- $75 plus shipping.

Now that's not all.

I don't need to tell you I'm getting old. Despite all the exercise I get gardening and ground working horses, I am getting stiffer and have less spring in the bones and sinews.

She, and her husband, have a business doing bodywork for exactly those kinds of things, and of course work with horsepeople.

What an interesting world.

And what interesting turns my life is taking.

I was just thinking, when writing you that last post, that since I'm going back to riding Dakota again, that I do so wish I could work him under English saddle, and of course was grumpy that I'd not find a saddle to fit his narrow body and high withers. This saddle ... built for very narrow horses.

Now I do have a problem though.

Deciding what I might wish for next. :lol: :lol: :lol:

And should I or shouldn't I buy a lottery ticket.
Given this run of luck I've had for the past couple of years.

Hmmmm....

Donald R.

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:31 am 
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windhorsesue wrote:
Donald, do you think this is a similar effect to what I was getting with an exercise I do with beginner riders, learning to sit a trot bareback.


Bingo! Nothing new under the sun.

windhorsesue wrote:
I ask them to alternate between stretching down their heels, as close to the ground as they can get them, with their toes lifting up to the sky and out, calf muscle and thigh loose against the side of the horse. And then, relaxing foot, allowing the lower leg to just flop, and lifting the front of the thigh ever so slight upwards, as if an invisible thread was pulling them skyward by the knee, and holding it there for just five or six steps, before going back to the downward stretch for the next few steps. A few cycles of this usually gets them seated really deep and secure, no more bounce. It seems to help them find their correct balance point.


I hate to tell you this, but I believe you method has just been stolen. Some old Geezer in the Pacific Northwest, I believe. Just got back into training and instruction. hehehe.

windhorsesue wrote:
It's just something that I played around with myself, so haven't really thought about the mechanics, or "correctness" of it.
What do you think?


What's to think? These are the mechanics of developing a steady secure seat. 'Correctness?' Now that I cannot say.

It is a way. It does what you find and what I've been discussing. Keep right on experimenting with it.

And your exercise, bareback? Exactly, well, except for the knee lifts, what I did with my students (those young women in the pics with the broncs especially) only on a saddle. They did a lot of stirrupless exercises with me.

windhorsesue wrote:
Oh.. your saddle! WHat a heartbreak!
You know.. until you can afford the saddle of your dreams, maybe you'd like to have a look at this one.. my tack of choice is the Christ's Lamsfelle Bareback pad.. nothing like the commonly available pads.. gorgeous, correct position, heaps of security, cushioning for horse and rider, two layer of merino fleece, one up for you one down for the horse. But with complete feel.

Cheers,
Sue


Well, by now you've read my post about the mysterious goings on concerning a Pariani saddle, that I had only just mentioned to you, and suddenly, I own one...within minutes in fact. I bet it wasn't more than 15 minutes before I'd sent my post to you, and I was on the phone talking to the owner of the Pariani I'm buying.

Now it's not treeless of course, but if I'm going to use a treed saddle at all, this would be the one I'd have looked for. I know them. I know that if fit properly they are among the best in the world.

And if I never used it, I could simply put it on the back of my couch, and admire it for years.

They are a thing of beauty in workmanship. All handmade by a single saddler-craftsman start to finish ... every single one.

I won't soon forget this day.

Donald R.

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:33 am 
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YEEEHA! Synchronicity! The law of favourability.

I call it the Red Stilleto List.

The key is in knowing EXACTLY, SPECIFICALLY what you want, so you recognise it and reach out and grab it when it comes your way.
Fantastic work Donald!
:lol: Oh what a terrible task you have.. deciding what to ask for next! Just be careful.... you know the Story of the Grovelhog? "Be careful what you ask for because you just might get it!" Be specific!
Hugs! Sue

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I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,

But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:22 pm 
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Well, this has become such an all 'round fascinating discussion, that I'm thinking we should either change the topic to include training a secure seat, or ask that the latter parts of it get split out.

And GEEEEZ Donald, I'm reading about your new saddle and the theme song from the Twilight Zone starts playing in my head! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Maybe you could go for broke and wish for world peace and while you're at it, wish for more saddle makers that understand what's really needed in a saddle? :lol:

Quote:
Or just can't maintain the standing in motion?


Yes...you should see me two-point. After laughing your you-know-what-off, you would feel pity and be compelled to help me. I'm pathetic!

I also have trouble with my knees coming up.

I am leaving for a week long clinic (five days of training with Paul and a few other keeners! WooHoo!) on the 12th. The clinic runs from the 13th to the 18th. I am cleared by then (concussion-wise) to ride, and as long as my ribs feel ok, the doctor said I can ride. The key of course is not coming off on my head again. But if I survive that week (which I have already paid for, looked forward to with more aniticipation than a five year old waiting for the sound of sleigh bells on the roof, and plan not ot miss for anything in the world), then I will be riding again when I get back.

THEN...I will be scratching my head and figuring out all that you've written and trying it, and asking questions because I don't quite get it...you know! LOL.

This really did turn into a very special topic on so many levels. Congratulations again on finding the saddle... that is just so cool, I actually got a little butterfly feeling in the pit of my stomach...that means I'm honestly thrilled for you. Or maybe it's a signal to go eat breakfast! LOL.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:21 pm 
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You don't need a horse.

The way to start developing the leg for riding up off the saddle in huntseat position doesn't require, and in fact should not include, a horse.

Use a step, or a piece of 2 x 4 wood about two foot long.

Stand on the board, or the edge of a step, steadying yourself with your hand or hands on whatever is nearby: a chair back, the wall, a stair railing.

Only the balls of your feet should be elevated on the step or board. Knees slightly bent.

Feet about a foot apart. Toes at first pointing straight forward. Let your weight sink down into your heels by relaxing your calf muscles.

It helps for some to find that point of bend of the knees where the calf will best relax.

You may want to actually rise and lower yourself using your foot and calf muscle and as you come down release and relax the muscle.

DO NOT BOUNCE. If your Achilles is shortened you could experience a sprain. As in all stretching exercises practice the Yoga rule: push only as hard as is comfortable, and not to the point of pain.

At first just a couple of minutes is sufficient.

Fairly soon, even the first session if you are comfortable, let your hips rotate until your back is hollow. When in this position on the horse, later, barely any or no weight should be on the saddle.

A few minutes a day will stretch the tendons. You'll know you are there when, with heel fully down, you can relax your calf muscle.

It will feel stretched but not tensely uncomfortable as it likely will at first.

While you can try from the first to lift your toe you'll likely find that difficult. Don't sweat it. That will come in time as an exercise.

Begin, from the first time, if you can, to rotate your ankle bone inward -- toward each other. You may find you can do it more easily if you shift your foot forward or backward on the board or stair you are standing on.

Needless to say, at some point you want to be wearing the footgear that you ride with. Like your leg the boot much be broken in to the angles used in this position.

If you are flexible, or gain sufficient flexibility through this exercise, a 2 x 4 will no longer give you sufficient height. Move to a stair step.

When your heels can drop a full 2 inches and you can relax into the posture I've described you are likely ready to ride.

Use your hands on the horse's neck while you find your balance. Practice at the walk for a week or so before trotting. Trotting, of course, will give you the next step in the exercise ... and will add what I asked you not to do at first ... bounce.

If you can follow this in your mind visually, it will become apparent that you have created a pair of shock absorbers not unlike those in a car.

Instead of your thighs taking up the impact of trotting, or cantering, (don't be in a big hurry for the canter), your lower leg absorbs the shock with a nice spring. Next to your thigh your calf carries the largest muscle group in your body. And your knee is built to flex like a spring. And so is your ankle.

I may, if I can put the parts all together at some point, make a video of this. We'll see.

A review of the Web shows exactly what I saw 30-40 years ago ... they (the instructors) all cry out to the student, "heels down," but fail to recognize that is only part of the paradigm.

Putting one's heels down has almost no effect on the 'seat.'

It is heels down and ankles rolled in that gives stability. The leg, from the knee down now becomes the platform upon which one rides.

In fact, heels down, alone, can well cause the knees to rise from the rider pinching with the knees and thigh.

In fact, usually, when an instructor orders "knees in" before heels down/ankle cocked is mastered are asking for the student to pinch themselves up off the horse, whether or not they realize it.

Some students, of a particular body type, leg shape, flexibility can do it properly, but hte majority of us cannot. Not until we have the ankle control mastered.

Heels down, alone, still allows the rider to sit on their thighs, rather than stretch the thighs down around the horse.

I wish I knew and better understand the mechanics when the ankle is rolled inward, nevertheless I can feel it, and so could every one of my students.

As Glen is experiencing, there is a very different feeling when this is mastered.

Here's a simple picture of the direction of applied force. Note the toe is out. Some judges will fault this. But it's simply a matter of anatomy. We are not all made the same. If the ankle is cocked over the downward pointing heel, the desired springy platform is attained:

Image

I can tell that, in the above image, at the instant the photo was snapped the rider did not have their weight down in their heel, or this person has very stiff tendons ... something a lot of us have. I have a bad right side Achilles so I know the feeling.

I doubt the rider is in 'two point,' at the time of the photo.

The sole of the boot, by the way, is in perfect position ... that is the sole planted against the inside stirrup upright bar. This makes the tilt of the ankle far more easy, and stable.

And I am not the only person teaching this, though I see zero mention of how to prepare the student for this. They do it on the horse. Something I don't care to do, since the beginner is going to wobble and if they have reins in their hands, oh my.

I know that many instructors do know about this and do teach this, but not enough of them.

This is turning into a book. Sorry.

Enough of my rambling. We'll get back to this when you wish.

Donald R.

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:15 am 
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:lol: Nothing new under the sun! I've never done this as preparation for riding.... but when I was pregnant with my daughter, fourteen years ago, I began a routine of excercise (based loosely on Jane Fonda pregnancy workout :lol: ).. and yep.. you guessed it.. This was one.. up and down on the step. I'm just about to do it in a moment!

So...
Quote:
When your heels can drop a full 2 inches and you can relax into the posture I've described you are likely ready to ride.

I guess I must be ready! :lol:

You can get these wonderful "yoga" shoes here in Taiwan. THey look like Japanese wooden clogs.. but high toed. You can choose the height,up to about four inches, depending on how much stretch you have developed. THey're supposed to be very good for your back, and unlocking your hips.. you stand in them for some time every day.

Now the ankles cocked in is an interesting bit.. I didn't quite get what you meant at first.. I was imagining just the toes turned out so the HEEL was cocked in.. but now it seems more clear (or maybe it's just the coffee working this morning) that by "cocking the ankle in" you mean actually tilting the plane of the sole of the foot (or boot)sideways away from ground parallel, to face slightly out away from the horse.. am I getting this now? THis will probably turn the toe out slightly unless you're really practiced at it, or have a certain anatomical toes bent in shape. (I'm just trying to paraphrase to check if my perception is correct now?)

Okay.. So if I've got this right now.. I'm jumping up and down with mixed indignation and delight.
I can remember, quite clearly, on the one and only occasion I took my dusty shaggy horse to Pony Club, the instructer yelling at us all as we trotted a ragged circle, HEELS DOWN, TOES IN!!! And I can feel it even now, the way this position locks up my inner thigh and pelvic joint and stiffens my whole body. Barney and I were disgusted.(with that and many other things) "If this is "posh" riding, we don't want it. We'll just go back to the beach thankyou!" Actually, it's part of the reason I still hardly ever use a saddle.. hiding my insufficiency. :wink:
From time to time, when I am riding in a saddle, I try this, even now, heels down, toes in, to see if my riding has improved any in the last thirty years. :cry: It hasn't. Still makes me freeze up like a lump of wood on top of the horse.
:lol: But doing what you describe... ah.. that's a different matter!

I recently bought a set of stirrups, beautiful, heavy, and angled and wedged so they hang just as you say. They're supposed to encourage your foot into a correct position... NOW I GET IT!
Thanks Donald!

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I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,

But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:35 am 
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You have sorted it out.

And yes, I know the "Pony Club" instructor you speak of. Not all, of course. Some are quite good, and would never ask for such a contortion of the leg.

If you want a sprained ankle, a bad one if the horse acts up, and to include being dumped on your bum, why yes, by all means, put your heel down and turn your toe in.

This will roll the ankle bone the wrong way and insure a higher rate of injury and raise the risk of a fall.

I once had a face to face screeching match (I spoke calmly, she screeched, honest) with an older English lady that had taught hundreds of children over the years.

She was a bit upset that while they had learned from her they were sending THEIR children to me to be instructed.

They noticed her students fell off a lot, mine extremely rarely.

And we worked out of the same stable at the time.

And that was what she preached. Heels down, toes in. Oh, and keep a firm feel of the horse's mouth on the bit as you much help him stay up should he stumble etc.

Really, honest, I kid you not. That is what she said.

As I said, you obviously have figured this all out. In Martial arts we would call this something on the order of, "Iron Leg Practicing Meditation." :lol: :lol:

Once in one of those rare moments of clarity during a perfect round I felt as though the universe pivoted around my still and fixed lower leg and my horse took each jump with ease as an appendage to it.

The Drum Strikes the Universe Through Hitting My Hand.

What a round that was. I'm goosepimply just remembering it.

Donald R.

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:38 am 
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windhorsesue wrote:
From time to time, when I am riding in a saddle, I try this, even now, heels down, toes in, to see if my riding has improved any in the last thirty years. :cry: It hasn't. Still makes me freeze up like a lump of wood on top of the horse.


I don´t know it it would really be an improvement to ride like this. When I do it, my horses stop due to the resulting tension in my body. And I have to admit that I do like it if they keep on telling me what feels normal to them... and heels down, toes up apparently does not. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:34 am 
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Yeah, I agree Romy.. I was being facetious.. just kidding. Although I have always had this little niggling feeling that there is something I'm missing.. something I just don't get.. so I've steered away from "organised" riding all my life, rather than show up my ignorance..
:lol: :lol: And now, I'm figuring out, largely thanks to the classical education that I'm being inspired to explore here, that there was indeed something I was missing.. I was ignorant of the fact that much of what I didn't understand was just plain WRONG.. and that was why I didn't get it. :lol:

Quote:
Oh, and keep a firm feel of the horse's mouth on the bit as you much help him stay up should he stumble etc.

Really, honest, I kid you not. That is what she said.

Donald, I know you kid us not. I'VE MET THIS WOMAN TOO! She must get around a bit!

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I have not sought the horse of bits, bridles, saddles and shackles,

But the horse of the wind, the horse of freedom, the horse of the dream. [Robert Vavra]


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:41 am 
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:lol:

Gosh, you too, eh?

We wouldn't want the horse to be able to oscillate their head on their neck for recovery of balance, now would we?

The all-knowing we shall 'help' them recover using our puny arms by lifting them up in the proverbial "bootstrap" maneuver.

The knownothings are everywhere.

Trust me.

Mine practically spit venom, when with loose reins and forward seat, my students performed over jumps and on the flat and beat her own students WITH HER AS THE SECOND JUDGE in the show ring.

She simply couldn't convince the AHSA judge to cheat. Counted faults and a couple of falls by her students just could not be hidden.

We never even had a balk.

Such hate. Tsk. Poor thing.

I guess I'm not feeling generous today.

Donald R.

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:42 pm 
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I have to say that I'm starting to wonder about a few things.

I only developed a "balance problem" on a horse when I chose to try to learn "the technical stuff" because I was tired of saying "I don't know" when people asked me "How do you ...?" because then they would say "Fine, be like that! I just SAW you do it a few minutes ago in the ring!" and I had NO IDEA what they were talking about with all their "inside" and "outside" and "collected" and "extended" and "3-track" and "4-beat" or "2-beat" and ... :blah:

So I went to "school" and forgot or lost how to ride! And I am really struggling to go back there again!

So maybe I'm like Sue - the kid who could and everyone said it wasn't "correct" - except that I made an effort (after all, they were supposed to be my betters) and got worse!

I must confess, though, that I look at photo's from then and I did not have an "elegant" posture on a horse! BUT I hardly ever fell off, and the horses hardly ever lost their balance with me on! Hmmmm ...

:lol: This is also turning into a book!

Lastly, let me say, over the last 2 years I have ridden in a variety of saddles. Only my new one - his Trekker Master - makes me "feel right" from the moment my butt hits the leather!

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