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 Post subject: Hopping in Piaffe
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:19 pm 
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I was watching more of the videos from the Youtube channel that Ania posted in the Baucher topic. Fascinating!

The horse in this video does a little hop occasionally with the hind end while transitioning from canter to piaffe. I need someone else to study this video with me, and see if they think that what Mr. Branderup is saying, is that it is the action of slowing the horse to piaffe which is causing this, when in fact the rider should NOT be slowing the horse, but rather just changing the rhythm of the movement (with the seat) between Piaffe and canter?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOEwPavt ... re=related

This little hop is exactly what Cisco does when he attempts piaffe (and now I cannot say if it is coming into the movement, or coming out of the movement)...so I'm wondering perhaps I am causing this hop, thinking I have to slow him down to piaffe, when in fact that slowing makes it more difficult for Cisco, hence the little hop. Cisco's "piaffe" is really a passage right now. Not a real piaffe, of course.

So what do YOU think Mr Branderup is saying in this video?

If I could sort this out, perhaps the only reason Cisco cannot piaffe under saddle yet is because I am causing him to lose too much energy.


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 Post subject: Re: Hopping in Piaffe
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:25 am 
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Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
Karen wrote:
I was watching more of the videos from the Youtube channel that Ania posted in the Baucher topic. Fascinating!

The horse in this video does a little hop occasionally with the hind end while transitioning from canter to piaffe. I need someone else to study this video with me, and see if they think that what Mr. Branderup is saying, is that it is the action of slowing the horse to piaffe which is causing this, when in fact the rider should NOT be slowing the horse, but rather just changing the rhythm of the movement (with the seat) between Piaffe and canter?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOEwPavt ... re=related

This little hop is exactly what Cisco does when he attempts piaffe (and now I cannot say if it is coming into the movement, or coming out of the movement)...so I'm wondering perhaps I am causing this hop, thinking I have to slow him down to piaffe, when in fact that slowing makes it more difficult for Cisco, hence the little hop. Cisco's "piaffe" is really a passage right now. Not a real piaffe, of course.

So what do YOU think Mr Branderup is saying in this video?

If I could sort this out, perhaps the only reason Cisco cannot piaffe under saddle yet is because I am causing him to lose too much energy.


May I suggest that we give the horse the benefit of the doubt in such cases. That is that he is not ready physically and possibly mentally to perform the desired movement exactly as wished for?

Remember that human athletes don't start at perfect performance, but in fact work their way up to the maximums.

And that "hop" may be needed as an exercise element to build up to the full action in the correct rhythm.

Just a thought.

Donald Redux

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:26 am 
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To me the hop or jump as he describes it which I presume is what you are refering to, happends as the energy is being used to create the shoulders being lifted and a slight transference of weight happends.

Also not just the rider, I think it is happening cause the horse is learning and figuring out what is required and doing so as easily as he can and I guess with more training the hop will happen less as the horse gets stronger and timing between both rider and horse becomes more one and everything will flow more.

But when the rider instead of slowing just changes rhythm in her own body it is more flowing. So to change rhythm rather than slow well to loose implusion rather than slow as they are slow but going forwards so implusion is what is still required through the transitions to keep it flowing and once trained enough it will be seemless.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:59 am 
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Thank you Donald! With Cisco, because it has been a long road for him to become strong enough to even think "piaffe", the strength and readiness of the horse is first and foremost in my mind too. I thought the horse in the video looked ready to at least try, and was trying with a great deal of composure. Did you think so too? Or did he look not quite ready?

But I was asking (and having a moment of not asking a very direct question...sorry) what others thought Mr. Branderup was saying in the video. In part because I could not hear every word. And if I heard it right, it somehow made a great deal of sense, because outside of the horse's physical ability, the rider, of course creates more problems than the horse does...always...

It just blew me away that the horse in the video hopped at all...I thought that it was only Cisco who did that! Really! My opinionated Cisco...

Lately Cisco is doing the hop less and less (and therefore I'm having trouble remembering if he did it at the beginning of a try or during, or at the end...). He is not getting cranky and he's not even shaking his head very much. I am becoming a bit more fluid and thoughtful in my aids (thanks to waltzing and learning what the vaqueros do (thank you Donald and Sue!) and learning to isolate them so I can think about what I'm doing, help from my friend Paul...toss in a little Chris Irwin and Hempfling, and loads of reading here in this forum.

Cisco has more and more impulsion. He has more energy and is more willing to offer a bigger movement (for him) in his gaits (which creates another challenge for me to learn to ride it). One of the things I do NOT know how to ride is the piaffe, or even properly ask for it. I am hoping that during our clinic here, Paul will help me with that. I know, thanks to Walter Zettl's videos, how to help it happen on it's own, but when Cisco really tries, I'm at a loss as to how to sit it. Do I help? Do I stay quiet? Somewhere in between? Flap my elbows and help him fly? How do you best follow the movement of the horse?

So it made some sense that a mistake from a rider can cause confusion for the horse (resulting in a hop), because I am guilty of that many times over!

And thank you Emmerie...you have added some clarification and another pespective not just on what he said, but perhaps what he meant (?) as well? Thank you!! That does make sense!

I am hoping that my big breakthrough in the piaffe will happen in about a week and a half.

And I'm reasonalbly sure I shouldn't be flapping my elbows.... :wink:


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 Post subject: Piaffe
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:16 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:02 pm
Posts: 102
Location: Cadet, Missouri USA
The cue for piaffe under saddle is to put both feet back towards the flank area. I squeeze both feet on and off for the que to keep going. As for teaching thew piaffe Matt Mclaughlin has a teaching video series for teaching both the piaffe and passage. Also Diane Old Rossi has one also. Her horses Piaffe and Passage are out of this world and she is classical dressage teacher! She trains and teaches some of the top us dressage horses!She even knows how to teack haute ecole moves! Her website is worldofdancinghorses.com and you can see her youtube page at youtube.com/user/equidancer.
Teaching the piaffe you start with the hind feet. The goal is to be able to tap the hind leg and have him idealy raise it up and suspend it then put it down repeat on other side then you stand behindhim with to lond inhand or carrage whips and tap left foot right foot repeat until you get piaffe! Or another way is to tap on hind foot and ask for trot then keep tapping and try to slow him down while tapping to keep impulsion!
Here is one of my favorite Piaffe videos!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DncGM9cq3w0
Matt Mclaughlin video and website:
matt-mclaughlin.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUoKtanhOXM


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 Post subject: Re: Hopping in Piaffe
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:47 am 
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I would like to hear descriptions of what a good piaffe feels like from the saddle. A part of me expects it to feel like a trot in place, but since ther actually is not "suspension" in piaffe it wouldn't feel that way, but I would still expect back movement. When I owned Asia, I could get her to do somthing in place- unfortuanatly our camcorder was broke and I never got to see what it looked like, although I knew her in hand piaffe was pretty nice.

I did hear one dressage rider talking about being on a master's horse and describing himself thinking "Is he doing it???" so maybe it doesn't have the powerful up/down feel I really expect.

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 Post subject: Re: Hopping in Piaffe
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:15 am 
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It feels different when coming from trot or walk at the start.

From the trot, the movement slows down without going into walk, you feel the hind drop and the front rise, the movement get smaller and easier to absorb, then you just sqees your butcheeks in turn to elevate the back and hind movement and stretch your body as much as possible (like you would hanging from a stretching poll) and try to point your lower leg towards the hind legs of the horse, sort of slightly walking with him, along with his flanks. Keep breathing in your lower belly. Keep your own movement minimal, just muscle action really, keeping your energy upright or up hill, looking into the distance, not at your horse. It feels like each of your butcheeks and leg are the hind leg of your horse. Just let you horse go forward, but you could vibrate the cordeo or reins, but do not prevent the forwards movement, only keep your seat upwards.

It feels like you horse could rise up in front any second and jump forward.

From walk to piaffe, it feels sort of when you go to collected canter from walk or halt but then you get the swining of the barrel again (the flanks movement I mean).

I only felt Piaffe on Jamie so, maybe it feels different with every horse.

Also, a lot of rider's tend to hang back, but just keep straight and when the horse is uphill it would look rather like to rider would sit a little forward rather then backwards.
I have felt that as soon I tried to restrict the movement forward by hanging back, and /or using the reins, and used my legs a lot, Jamie would loose balance from my fiddling with my body and hands on his head and then fall on the fore hand and the piaffe was gone.
With a cordeo it's easyer, I never tried it myself alas, but some of my pupils horses piaffed in the lessons on the cordeo and then you can't mess it up and the cordeo vibrates against that balancing point on the base of the neck.

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 Post subject: Re: Hopping in Piaffe
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:47 pm
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Location: Grantville, PA
When I rode Asia, I probably did have it and didn't even know it. She was definitly moving her legs diagonally in place and sitting deeply behind, but her back practically did nothing. I could get very short half steps where the back kept "trotting" but it neer felt like we would ever get anything like that on the spot (or close to it). Had I gotten the feel I thought I should get, she might have had to hop in piaffe...?

But I think you are right to say each piaffe would feel different. I"m sure Brent Branderup's horses feel very different than Anky G's horses (duh) We could probably find ten different horseman that by this forum's standards are master's and still get ten different answers to what a great piaffe should feel like.

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 Post subject: Re: Hopping in Piaffe
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:56 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:50 am
Posts: 1
hello my name is gretta i m from poland but i m in kentucky for a while , it is the first time i m in a forum but i love searching for new things on internet concerning natural dressage .....i fell upon your forum on kerstin brein video doing liberty with her ponies ... i think it s really great ....i fell upon another video i liked on natural dressage i don t know who she is but i think it is quite good cause her horse moves in the right way and the liberty on the ground and ridden is nice to watch ..... youhttp://www.dailymotion.com/video/xeu ... er_animals
what do you think of it???? what is impressive is the appuyer with the good curve barback and bridless dont u think???? how do u explain it??http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWYNv0s39Ek&feature=related
does some one know where she learnt?? and kerstin??? where did she learn


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