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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:49 pm 
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I know that in a way, I am generally more of a "microshaper" than a "lumper" as I have always tried to begin a movement by rewarding the very smallest try that I can see. But I never really had a name for it, other than "shaping".

Recently, Alexandra Kurland put out a dvd on Microshaping, and so I bought it. It is a compilation of footage from clinics and it clearly shows how microshaping works. It is REALLY rewarding the smallest try. Like a muscle twitch. The dvd helps you learn to see those muscle twitches...where to look, etc.

So those muscle twitches can then be built into movements, OR, they can remain as muscle twitches...what many are now referring to as "pilates" for horses.

The idea is presented in the video, that it can begin very slowly...which would mean a very low reinforcment rate if a horse had to take a lot of time to figure out what he/she was being clicked for. So to increase the reinforcement rate and to keep the horse interested, she uses a target as well. If the horse makes a good try, he then gets to target (something he knows well) as another reinforcer, and something he can get clicked rapidly for. So he twitches a muscle, and gets clicked and treated, then he's presented with the target and he touches that, then gets clicked and treated rapidly for several touches in a row, then the handler hides the target, and then waits for another muscle twitch.

I expected Cisco to be very slow in figuring this out. I haven't done a lot (if any) free shaping with him, and I don't consider him to be as clicker savvy as Tamarack is. So I had a glove to use for a target (or I could just let him kiss my cheek). But I wanted to see how he would respond to this idea.

When I arrived at the stable, (late, as usual) my friend had already brought Cisco in, and he and her horse were tied in the covered outdoor saddling area.

Cisco has always had the habit there, of backing up to the end of his rope when I step up beside him. I can cluck and point, and he steps forward again, but I thought, "no, here's my chance to microshape". So I stood in the next tie stall and slouched against the rail and just waited to see what Cisco would do.

He looked at me, he dropped his head, he tried to reach my face to give me a kiss (mugging for treats) but I was just out of reach. I remained still, and just waited.

Then he moved his right shoulded forward a bit. CLICK/TREAT. Then again, C/T again. Then again. Good grief. I couldn't feed him fast enough! I had thought to shape him to take a step forward, but what I was getting was him leaning his shoulder toward me. Not what I wanted, but it was so fascinating that I just kept going. He kept leaning. I thought he might fall over. He was loving this. He had such a rapid rate of reinforcement that a target wasn't necessary to fill in the gaps. I rapidly emptied my treat pouch.

So then he was pumped, and I can't tell you how much better his "guesses" were when we had our bridleless session following the microshaping. I didn't really try to microshape while I was on him, but we were nevertheless going through treats faster because he was just reacting faster. As quick as I could suggest, he was reacting.

I see HUGE possiblites in microshaping. Clicking for a tightening of the tummy muscles...clicking for a raising of the shoulders, clicking for shifting more onto the hind legs, clicking for tilting the pelvis. Not only should this help refine (or define) some of the movements better for Cisco and Tam, it should go a long way to help my own observational skills in seeing the small parts come together to create balance and collection.

I never thought that simply seeing a horse stand in one place, with out moving the feet, and seeing him/her just lean back slightly, would be so exciting...but it was! And I can now say with certainty that Cisco is VERY clicker savvy. He understood what was going on, SO fast. I can hardly wait to have another session with him!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:57 pm 
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Here are some links for microshaping. Some of it is dogs...but it works with horses just as well.

This is about dogs, but talks a lot about balance and quality of movement...the smae things we seek with our horses:

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1627

From Alexandra Kurland: The dvd, with a good explaination beneath it.

http://www.theclickercenter.com/2004/st ... haping.htm


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:23 pm 
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I never called it microshaping, but just rewarding the smalles try - and that indeed is tiny. When teaching a horse to move his shoulders away from me, I'll just put my finger at his shoulder and wait for a tiny weight-shift away from the finger. That's what I click for immediately, and horses learn that very quick. same goes for a leg-lift: as soon as the shoulder starts to move away from the leg I want, I'll reward.

I think it is because with this microshaping you're much more direct when seeing a muscletwitch as a smallest try. If you wait for an actual movement, then the horse is already doing a hundred things at a time (leaning forwards, lifting a front and a hindleg, lowering the neck and tensening and lenthening a thousand muscles, just to name a few 8) ) and still has to guess a bit what you really meant with your quick. If you skip the actual movement, but work with tiny muscle twitches and weight shifts, with the same timing your click is much more precise because the horse is doing far less.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:40 pm 
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That is me, too. I am very good at clicking for a very slight try...apply a hand, or a finger, or a look...wait for a response, click/treat. But this was without any cue (at least I tried not to cue, but horses see things we don't think were doing). I just stood back, slouched, and waited for Cisco to offer something. A muscle twitched in his shoulder...that was where we started. I was just amazed Cisco got it so fast.

Smart, smart Cisco. I really don't give him enough credit for having so much intelligence.

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If you wait for an actual movement, then the horse is already doing a hundred things at a time (leaning forwards, lifting a front and a hindleg, lowering the neck and tensening and lenthening a thousand muscles, just to name a few ) and still has to guess a bit what you really meant with your quick. If you skip the actual movement, but work with tiny muscle twitches and weight shifts, with the same timing your click is much more precise because the horse is doing far


Yes! I love this!!!!! :applause:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:53 am 
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Wow. This evening it was Tam's turn. He picked it up fast too. For him though, I decided to try for one of the same things I saw in the dvd. Engaging the tummy muscles.

Tam already knows how to "pose" and offers it often. So I thought I would play with the quality of it.

So I stood beside him, relaxed my stance, watched his tummy just back by the flank, and waited. Tam tried a couple of things, then he posed. No click. Hmmm, he thought to himself. He posed harder (head almost touching the front of his neck). Still no click. More thinking from Tam. Then he arched his neck and leaned back, ever so slightly. His tummy muscles tightened just a little. CLICK! Treat! With many of his tries, he was moving his feet a little (I was watching his tummy and ignoring the feet, but still clicking)...front or back, so early on he thought that was part of it. Eventually he just backed up, but when no click happened, he was better to remain still. He still might move one foot here or there, but for the most part, he kept his feet still, and just leaned back a little. Neck arched. Tummy muscles flex. CLICK, treat.

We took a little break and did other things. Whenever we stopped anything though, he would then arch his neck and lean back. It was so neat.

After a while, I did another little session with him. He was getting really good with that tummy flex! I can't say that he knew for certain what he was getting clicked for, but he was narrowing it down because he was figuring out what he wasn't getting clicked for. He didn't waste any time on the things that weren't getting any rewards. He just got better and better at that one movement where he had to flex his tummy.

So within our training time tonight, we did three little microshaping sessions. Each time he got better. I expect he will keep getting better. Once he really figures out that it's his tummy muscles that I'm paying attention too, I think this will get really fun. Because then I can focus on some other muscle group.

It was a great session. He got a little warmed up, just standing there flexing!


Last edited by Karen on Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:10 am 
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Thanks for the link Karen. Great stuff!
I'm off with a magnifying glass to play with my horse. :lol:
I think you've just identified and solved for me a problem I've been having.
Cheers.
Sue


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:40 am 
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Sounds great, and thanks for writing it down s detailed!

I already start to realise that I will only be able to click for muscle twitches when the ponies have lost their winter coats... :roll:

Actually, I now realise that this is what I did with Sjors too to teach him the bow - he taught it himself (I didn't have a cue for it) because he started leaning back when standing with his front feet on the plateau - for a year, before I realised that I could click for that. :roll: 8) And when I did, he started to lean back further and further into a real bow. And only later I started thinking of putting it on a cue. Actually our cue for the bow is 'And....' because everytime I wanted to say 'And bow' or something like that, but couldn't think of a cue to put it on, as bow is already in use for the compliment. 8)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:06 pm 
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Today I will try to get a little video. I am really reluctant though to take anything away from Alexandra's efforts with her dvd. For anyone considering it, once you see it, you will see how simple it is, but it IS worth it. ALexandra Kurland explains it SO WELL, and so simply...my little video will just be a video with no real explaination, so perhaps I won't be infringing. I hope, anyway.

But Miriam, I want to see if I can show the muscle movement, even through winter hair. Now Tam is not quite as furry as Blacky and Sjors, but he does still have his winter coat. I couldn't see an extremely tiny muscle twitch, but I could see it when he lifted that muscle right in front of the flank, and I think also he was slightly tilting his pelvis...because the muscle just behind the flank was also involved and it was really easy to see because it sunk in enough to change the light pattern on his hair.

Within the microshaping, I was also being more careful (and have been the last couple weeks) where I give Tam his treat. I give it to him close to his chest, so he has to yet again arch his neck to take it, but it also has helped to keep him from coming forward to take it. He is learning to wait until I give it. What is funny is when he forgets for a moment, reaches, then snaps his own head back toward his chest and holds still until my hand reaches his mouth.

But also I noticed (when I was able to tkae my eyes off the fascinating movement of his tummy muscles) that if he and I sort of met in the middle, with the treat delivery, that his neck was even more beautifully arched, with stark definition of the muscles...more like you see in the nice photos of Shir Khan with his Arab neck.

Anayway, today is warm and sunny and beautiful, so I should be able to tape some of it.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:14 pm 
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I also wanted to mention the microshaping dvd covers how it helped with two very nervous/anxious horses. Something I may use with Cisco to help us in calming him when he is out of sight of his herd.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:39 pm 
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Oh wow, I just see this topic!!! I questioned about Pilates for horses in another topic and it's already discussed! I love this forum :D Thanks Karen for this useful info!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:30 pm 
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I got some really good video of Cisco doing it. I hope to get the video up today some time. It won't show any how-to's...it just focuses on Cisco's flank so you can see the muscles moving (and my lousy timing with the clicker...it amazes me that the horses can learn anything from me! :wink: )


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:44 pm 
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I have a video up of microshaping with Cisco. It's a bit like watching paint dry unless this fascinates you like it fascinates me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ypeGVjEARo


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:13 am 

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Hey, how is this microshaping working out for you? What changes have you seen or haven't and do you still think it's worth it? This is very different.

Is there a big change or do you think it's better to just stick with the gymnastic exercises? It'll be interesting to hear your thoughts?

April

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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 5:10 pm 
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Quote:
Is there a big change or do you think it's better to just stick with the gymnastic exercises? It'll be interesting to hear your thoughts?


At the moment, I'm using it wtih Cisco as a secondary reward (or a break from what we are working on) so he gets a few moments of rapid reinforcement when we are working on something more difficult. I haven't yet tried to take it further with him.

With Tam though, it is evolving, and the ab crunch is turning into an attempt to piaffe. Many elements came together for this...not just the ab crunch alone, but it's interesting. Cisco has not offered to take it further yet.

Over all, this exercise is teaching me to look for a very, very tiny, clickable effort in many things. Rewarding the smallest try took on a whole new meaning!

It is not a replacement for the gymnastic exercies, but it is very complimentary to them and adds another dimension to them. Also a better starting point for free shaping!


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