The Art of Natural Dressage

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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:51 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Dearest Ali,
Thank you for help :f:

"Dealing with scared horses sticky"- very informative ( I read about this method in the book about clicker training, and now I could see it by eyes on the movie). Thank you :) Good idea for the shy horse :)

And I was reading about the encouraging politeness sticky some time ago. I do it very similalry, but I called this Art of Seduction :)

And I would like to say something about these 2 movies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAOtqsp0RSc and this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phwaiDcxTvQ and about the girl called Nelly :)
Please don't be angry at me, my intentions aren't to hurt somebody but I have to say what I think because when I didn't do this I will be have pangs of conscience.
In my opinion Nelly has a lot of positive energy in herself and this energy creates a wonderful relationship with the horse. I see that Nelly easily communicate with the horse, and I see that the horse feels very comfortable in her company and is happy to respond to any suggestions. And, I am sorry, but I need to say that she doesn't nead a treats for horses. But of course she will do what she feels :) Nelly has great potential :sun: Some people are born with such a gift, and in my humble opinion Nelly has this gift :f:
Sorry if anyone was offended :giveflower:

Ali, I'm impressed by your contact with your horse, I think that you are soulmates and complement each other. :f:

Last night I was thinking about horse's fear and aggression. As I said before
Quote:
But sometimes is that, and I am not sure whether this is a fear and this is a desire to escape from fear, maby this is something else which I can't understand. I will tell you, maby you will be know.
When we walking and everything is ok, she is focus on me, on grazing and everywere is calm. And suddenly, and I do not understand the reason, my Pagoda turns her head away from me, pushes me by her shoulder and then she turns her croup to me and begins run, if I hold the line she will kick me, I have to let her go and I haven't choise and then she runs to neighboring horses.

I am not shure that this Pagoda's behaviour is created by fear. That's what she does is aggressive behavior on 100%, but I don't understand the reason. And this is what I had found yesterday:
The Four Causes Of Aggression by Marv Walker
1.) Fear. The horse is super afraid. He's like a bully in a school yard. He has no idea how to deal with and react to people so he immediately seeks to put you in your place BEFORE you do anything to him that may make him uncomfortable or harm him. It is a question of doing it to you before you do it to him. When fear bullies are confronted they usually immediately align themselves with the confronter. When bullying doesn't work, they turn into a cajoling buddy..."Hey Buddy, you and I are friends, right? We can handle any troublemakers who come our way, right?"
2.) Disrespect. Occupying your space, punishing you for not doing what they want when they want, paying more attention to some petty distraction than you and a number of other things that make you feel meaningless when you are around the horse. If you are doing something he doesn't like, he can, and often does, bite, or threaten to bite.
3.) Pain. Suppose for a moment that you have a twisted back or neck and every movement sends a spear through you...would you bite if someone crossed your path? Sure.
4.) Mental illness whether caused by hormones or what have you. These horses are exceptionally dangerous because logic doesn't work with them. If a horse is mentally ill, it usually exhibits some additional symptoms as well such as irrationality, inconsistency or total unpredictability.
I am considering about disrespect or mental illnes caused by hormons. I lean more to disrespect. I do not think she feels fear at this point, frightened Pagoda behaves differently.
What I think about mental illnes I think about estrus (when she wants to have a baby), my Princess has this from few days and this is not the same horse :) This girl is full of life, but from few days she is very very malicious, she is so resentful on everything. Poor girl.

Ali, you given me wonderful examples for shy horses. Thank you.

I am very interesting how to foolow with horses which have very big ego and they are very self-confident.
I would like to show you something about Hempfling (sorry that I show you him again, but here are good examples of shy horse and self-confident horse and different ways of handling them).
Shy horse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgyGa_tgNu8
Self-confidend horse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io4HCeiOOqo (when I watch at this one I see my Princess 2 years ago and It makes me still mixed feelings)
I am very curious of your opinion if the case of a horse with a big ego and very self-confident horse is enough to use methods only like for shy horse or is important to establish clear boundaries.
And next one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN7J5Tk2JEw (I think that this horse's behaviour will be not changed for better if this girl will use bodylangueage standing near him, it will be not enough and it can be very dangerous for this girl. I think that if she will use encouraging politeness (Art of Seduction) in this moment it could be fatal, what do you think?)

Here are more examples of aggressive behavior not caused by fear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBY5q2IRu3M - the true meaning of spanish walk and when horses use it.
With A. Nevzorov:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luxRCK1LNh0 in 15 second in this vidio (horse does not respect Nevzorov personal space, of course Nevzorov does not protest), in 30 second in this vidio, and in 40 second of this vidio to 54 second (I will not comment for obvious reasons)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BIdIcKahfU - 1 minute 19 second
I would like to hear your opinion if this big ego and so big self-confidence in horse makes that he is more happy in domesticated environment ? I think on this for many years, every day...What do you think? Is this important for domesticated horse?
Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:13 pm 
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Wind of change wrote:
I am very interesting how to foolow with horses which have very big ego and they are very self-confident.
What I do when I encounter a problem with my horse is I try to separate the actual behaviour from my interpretation of it and what I think were the horses' reasons for doing it. (By the way, my horse shows very similar behaviour to what you describe, like spooking on a walk, turning and bolting, so fast that it's almost impossible to react properly...).

I found that I tend to use human criteria (like moral considerations) for judging the reasons behind a behaviour. For example a big ego and strong self-confidence is a good thing, isn't it? I certainly would want it for myself ;). So why is it often found to be problematic in horses?
I guess it's because self-confidence implies rebellion. But why would someone rebel? Only because he feels he is treated not right?
And as soon as I enter the field of right or wrong, I am judging the situation with a human moral system, which I feel I cannot force on a horse.

So what can I do? I can look at the actual behaviour (horse turning and running away) and try to change that. I would try to make the horse WANT to come with me, instead of running back to the herd.
My horse Mucki clings very much to the herd. So I try to make our walks as interesting, fun and rewarding for him as I can. And I try to really, really slowly increase our radius, so if he is actually afraid of leaving the herd, I can react to every sign of discomfort.
At the moment it is quite frustrating at times, because our progress is slow, but

Wind of change wrote:
And, I am sorry, but I need to say that she doesn't nead a treats for horses.
I guess she likes to use treats ;). And the question is: why shouldn't she? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:45 pm 
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Volker wrote:
Wind of change wrote:
And, I am sorry, but I need to say that she doesn't nead a treats for horses.
I guess she likes to use treats ;). And the question is: why shouldn't she? ;)


Indeed, she just loves to make horses happy - as do all our children, luckily. :sun: I also needn't smile at my students or tell them that they are doing well but could simply tell them what they have to do. Probably they'd even do it. But why would I? What would any of us gain from it?

Sorry for only writing such a brief post - I am currently very busy at work. Ania, if you want to read more about any of these topics (ego, treats, dealing with aggression, etc.), we have discussed them several times and you can find these discussions in the Links to threads. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:13 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Dear Volker,
Quote:
So what can I do? I can look at the actual behaviour (horse turning and running away) and try to change that. I would try to make the horse WANT to come with me, instead of running back to the herd.

Yes, I want to exactly the same as you :) That my horse WANT to be with me ;)
But I think that without a thorough understanding of the reasons for the behavior of my horse, I am not able to make this possible.
I'm not afraid that I will give human traits for my horse, because I am with horses from my childhood, besides from my Pagoda I am everyday from 10 years and I am able to to distinguish what is human and what is horse. In the past I often gave human's character traits for animals. But today I am sure that agression and rebellion not only is the hallmark of human. You can see it everywhere- dogs, cats, birds, elephants, horses and other.
Quote:
I guess it's because self-confidence implies rebellion. But why would someone rebel? Only because he feels he is treated not right?
And as soon as I enter the field of right or wrong, I am judging the situation with a human moral system, which I feel I cannot force on a horse.

I think that this is normal situation for rebellion if someone feels that he is treated not right :) But next reason for rebellion is just a dominance game (for fun), other- hormones, other- fear, other- disrespect. The only one reason for rebellion is not only feeling that someone treats me wrongly.
Quote:
For example a big ego and strong self-confidence is a good thing, isn't it? I certainly would want it for myself ;). So why is it often found to be problematic in horses?

Yes, big ego and big sel-confidence is a good thing, but only when the horse is emotionally stable. Do you think that horse which can express hisself, bite and kick people, ramming their without a reason this horse is happy? I don't think so. I think that happy horse is when he can express hisself everytime but he is able to accept decisions of others, accept the refusing and feels good with this. Here in Poland, we have a lot of horses sentenced to death, going to the slaughterhouse only because nobody stabilize their emotions. There are horses traumatized or raised without the herd, where could not learn to deal with awkward situations for them, and over-react to ange and aggression, because everything has to be just as they want. This is not the same but you can compare it to hyperactivity in children, neurosis or borderline. Of course horses have right to thats behaviour because they have their reasons and they are right. But without understanding the reason we can't help that's horse, and sometimes therapy is very very painful for the horse (just as a human therapy is often painful) but sometimes (not every time) is only way to help this animal and save him from death. Don't get me wrong, I am not talking about that the horse must listen to us, but I am talking about stabilization horses emotions.
Did you try looking for treasures game when you are outside with your horse?
This game makes that horse is fucus on looking for treasures and you are someone who know where they are and guides the horse in these places but still gives him the opportunity to find delicacies hisself. Before the walk, you can hide the fruit or vegetables under the trees, under the leaves, near the stone and then lead a horse that route. Guaranteed fun! And the pride when the horse finds the fruits so so big!! :yeah: You can gradually increase the range of walking. The horse will be have a good reason why he should stay with you from his own will :)

Quote:
I guess she likes to use treats ;). And the question is: why shouldn't she? ;)

Because when I watch at her at these vidios I see that the horse is very focus on her and that the horse is focus on this what she presents by herself. and when she give him a reward for eat this horse dissipates. It's like I dance with some boy and he leading dance, I am happy and I feel good with him but I can't focus on the dance because every few steps he puts the chocolate cubes in my mouth ;) Of course this is my opinion and please do not take it to heart :f:

Romy,
Quote:
Indeed, she just loves to make horses happy - as do all our children, luckily. :sun: I also needn't smile at my students or tell them that they are doing well but could simply tell them what they have to do. Probably they'd even do it. But why would I? What would any of us gain from it?

I agree with you :) But sometimes small suggestion or conversation is good, because it gives to think and figuring out, of course always leave a free choice :) Most important thing is to do everything in accordance with own heart and conscience :)

Quote:
Sorry for only writing such a brief post - I am currently very busy at work. Ania, if you want to read more about any of these topics (ego, treats, dealing with aggression, etc.), we have discussed them several times and you can find these discussions in the Links to threads. :)

Thank you :f:


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:14 pm 
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Wind of change wrote:
But I think that without a thorough understanding of the reasons for the behavior of my horse, I am not able to make this possible.
I also investigate the possible reasons for a certain behaviour and I make up my own theories about it. I just try to avoid judgment in terms of morally right or wrong. Separating the behaviour from the reasons helps me avoid such things...

Now, if I understood you right, your theory about Pagoda's behaviour (turning and running to other horses) is that she is disrespectful. What are your consequences then, if she is indeed disrespectful. How would you deal with that?

Wind of change wrote:
Yes, big ego and big sel-confidence is a good thing, but only when the horse is emotionally stable.
Are you suggesting that Pagoda is emotionally unstable?

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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:45 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Dear Volker,
Quote:
I also investigate the possible reasons for a certain behaviour and I make up my own theories about it. I just try to avoid judgment in terms of morally right or wrong. Separating the behaviour from the reasons helps me avoid such things...
Now, if I understood you right, your theory about Pagoda's behaviour (turning and running to other horses) is that she is disrespectful. What are your consequences then, if she is indeed disrespectful. How would you deal with that?

I like when you said, that you don't judgment in terms of morally if some behaviour is right or wrong :) Horses are always righ! :applause: But with smooth eye we are able to see if horse is happy or not when he shows some behavior, while expresses itself. Everything what horse do he is right, but sometimes we should help the horse if he can't deal with some situation and he is lost.
And yes, I think that sometimes my Pagoda is very disrespectful for me, but what can I do is to find the true reason why she is disrespectful and try to change it by changing myself, that she stops feel a need to be disrespectful for me :)

Quote:
Are you suggesting that Pagoda is emotionally unstable?

sometimes- yes. I don't know why because I don't know her past. I met her when she had 3 years and she was very dangerous horse, she has large scar on his leg and chest, I tried to call to her previous owner, but she did not want to talk with me about Pagoda and I not learned anything on this topic from this woman.
I wonder about the magnesium's introduction to her diet, this can help her to keep calm and it can makes that she could feel less nervous. I would like to try because sometimes she reacts very very very emotionally without a apparent reason and I see that she suffers in such moments. She doesn't feel good with this.


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:20 am 
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Quote:
When I am here and now I really feel that I back to home and I feel like a small child which I was many years ago. Everything is transparent, simple and good. All I can accept, I feel peace and joy in the soul. Besides, I'm fully aware of what I'm doing and what is happening around me.

Thanks for explaining, what this "here and now" is for you and how you get there. This state of mind seems to be similar to my experience.
But I am a bit confused. What are we discussing about? As I understood you, you want to be in this state, when you are with horses. But how does that fit to the concept of being a leader?
Sorry if I missed something... 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:44 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Quote:
But I am a bit confused. What are we discussing about? As I understood you, you want to be in this state, when you are with horses. But how does that fit to the concept of being a leader?

Yogini, I begin to translate :D
Most people (not me) think that being a leader means being a boss. And being a boss means that the horse MUST doing what the boss wants to. It's not me.
1. But being a leader for me means that the horses want to do what I suggest (during play, during exercises, during training) and here horses can express themselves and their views, the horse says what he wants, what he wants to have fun. Sometimes I suggest something, sometimes horse proposes.
2. And next (other rules- horse doesn't propose) being a leader for me means that the horse 100% accept my decisions and the horse feels good and safe with this (when doing hooves, on the walk, while riding, veterinary treatments,). And here, in this second point is very important to be "here and now" for me, because when I am "here and now" I am not a boss, and my horse willingly do what I ask him, this is natural for the horse because the "here and now" makes me that I am very certain rightness of my actions and very calm, and this makes that the horse wants to follow me, because I am someone special for him.
This is very important for me especially when walking and riding. I am someone who knows what to do in every situations and the horse feels very safe then and can accept every my decision, because they are sure that everything I do is good and safe for them. They do not have to worry about anything, and this gives them a big relaxation and very good feeling. At this point they do not make decisions alone like during playing or training and they don't feel a need of doing this.
A leader is someone on who horse can really on, the horse doesn't need to be nervous of new situations, because when I am near him and I know what is going on and if I think that this is safe and good, then the horse thinks the same (but I must be here and now).
Hope now is more understandable :)


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:58 pm 
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I think it is very understandable, and my experience is similar: The more I am certain about the things I do, the more the horse tends to simply follow me without questions - unless, of course, it is a situation in which he very strongly wants something else, then being more certain might make him disconnect or fight me. But in situations in which there is no extreme stress, being certain and "fully present" makes the horse just willingly go with what I say. And I really mean willingly, not submissively or helplessly.

For me it's just that I do not want such horses. I want them to be active explorers who do NOT constantly look to me for guidance, unless they really are overwhelmed and need me to lead. But in any situation in which it is possible for me to inspire (or often simply not hinder ;)) them to solve it by themselves, I prefer to do this. I guess my main goal still is what Sue once called "entrepreneur horses" - and in problematic situations this is even more important to me than during training and play.


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:12 pm 
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So if I understood this right, you want the horse to want what you want, while you are in the state of "here and now". I am very different. Especially in this state of mind. I want to be with the horse and communicate with it and I want that it just is the way it wants to be and not the way I want it to be. And I even want it to show me who it is. To me the idea of someone that just wants what I want being around me is a bit annoying. .. well that is very personal though...

I wonder by the way, how the horses can be able to express what they want, while they have to want what you want. You know what I mean?


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:02 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Dear Romy and Yogini,
Quote:
For me it's just that I do not want such horses. I want them to be active explorers who do NOT constantly look to me for guidance, unless they really are overwhelmed and need me to lead. But in any situation in which it is possible for me to inspire (or often simply not hinder ;)) them to solve it by themselves, I prefer to do this.


Quote:
So if I understood this right, you want the horse to want what you want, while you are in the state of "here and now". I am very different. Especially in this state of mind. I want to be with the horse and communicate with it and I want that it just is the way it wants to be and not the way I want it to be.


I don't know how to explain..... :)
maybe this movie will show you that what I say. Please look at this horse, how much he is free and happy and at the same time how much he wants to be close to this man from his own horse's will.
it is not dressage, they are not tricks, it's not even an ordinary type of communication to show the direction of the way, this is something that I call a real bond. This is something I want the most in the world. Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I'd give the whole kingdom in the world to spend even a short time with my horses in the union of the open wild area like on this vidio :love:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dL96XCfpDM
Quote:
I wonder by the way, how the horses can be able to express what they want, while they have to want what you want. You know what I mean?

They don't have to want what I want but they want to the same what I want to from their own will :)

Here is little explaining why leadership is natural for horses and why they feel good with this, I understand this in the same way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsd2ZaM3Njo


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:45 am 
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Quote:
They don't have to want what I want but they want to the same what I want to from their own will :)

Yes I understood you right.
Still this is not what I am aiming for and also Hempflings way, which is not shown in the videos, to reach the result shown in the videos, is not mine at all.

There are many ways to reach a harmonious relationship with a horse.
I think each person has to find her or his very own way. So I whish you, that you will find yours.
:f:


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:34 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Quote:
There are many ways to reach a harmonious relationship with a horse.
I think each person has to find her or his very own way. So I whish you, that you will find yours.

Thank you!
I wish you the same- whatwhatever you want :)
I think that every one need something diffrent to grow, and depending on what his destiny and what has been created. But I belive that one day we will meet together all in one place and will see one of the truest truth. But today, everyone walks his own path, which is the right one for him. This is the essence of humanity. All blundering and looking for something. Animals are other- they know what they were created, people do not know :)
Wish you all the best :love:


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:58 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Quote:
Hempflings way, which is not shown in the videos

Could you explain this for me, please? Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:31 pm 
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Ania, perhaps this thread will be interesting for you: Hempfling's seminar in September. For me it includes the main reasons of why I do not want to work with horses in this way, and at the same time it acknowledges that he is amazing in the things he does. :smile:


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