The Art of Natural Dressage

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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:51 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:19 am
Posts: 82
Location: America
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However, it also means that you can influence the horse to become excited, calm, or happy, depending on yourself. Of course, the horse still has their own emotions, mind, and experiences, so it isn't possible to have the horse entirely match yours, but it can at least influence them.

And that is what I want to avoid. I leave my horses free will and do not want to affect on them by my emotions. Neither good emotions nor bad emotions. That's what I'm saying all the time is inner peace, it is a state of mind and body where there is no place for excitement or fear. Here is inner calm and quiet joy of being.


I'm sorry, I don't think I phrased that quite right. I still think that you can influence your horse's emotions. I didn't mean, however, that I always need her to be in the emotion I want her to be- when I said that, I meant it in the sense that people have to ability to calm down a horse by remaining calm themselves, and help the horse get over their fear. I've noticed that when the person is scared because the horse is scared, neither can calm down very easily. Their emotion influence each other. I hope that makes a bit more sense?

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Horses very easily perceive our emotions. I think that horses are smart enough to tell when those emotions are directed at them or not, too. Horse can tell when you're mad at them, or at something else.
I disagree :)


Would you mind if I asked why? :)


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:14 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:51 am
Posts: 680
Location: Germany
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I think that to be with horses I need to be free from all my though, and then I will be at the state which is opposed to the state when diffrent thoughs penetrate my head, and only that state I can be full aware of being here and now. As a result I attain peace and quiet experience the joy of being.

This state of mind is not easy to attain by average people. Congratulations, if you did/do. I try myself as well, but I reach it rarely. Then it feels like coming home, just indescribable. But I can t control this state of mind in the sense of getting into it and leaving it deliberately. It just comes and vanishes "as it likes to". Do you have a concrete tipp for me, something that helped you? :f: What do you do if thoughts and emotions come up?


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:01 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:51 am
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Location: Germany
I want to add, that I don t want to suppress thoughts and emotions, once they are there. They are part of this moment and wether the horse can perceive them or their energy or not, they are a good information for me myself. So I don t want to miss them, but I want to decide myself, if I could use them in a moment or not, instead of being overwhelmed by them. Is that understandable?


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:44 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Hi to all:)

Volker,
Thank you for explanation. I understand what you mean and I understand my indiscretion and clumsiness. My goal wans't to hurt someone. Next time I will be more cautious and of course I will be try to speak only in first person.
Ones more I sorry if I did hurt someone. It was not my intention :giveflower:

Ali,
Quote:
I think you must have misunderstood me :smile: ,What I mean is - I am neither clairvoyant , nor do I know your past and yet I am understanding and reacting to your emotions and actions that you have expressed ,though this is just through written language . This is what I believe that horses are capable of though body language and the presence of a human . Reacting to what they perceive and reacting on this information , should he so want to

Ok, now I understand what you mean :)
Quote:
If I understand this right , you are asking the horse to ignore their own instincts and rather follow your lead ? . :smile:
For me , I would never want to have this , as I like my horses to be autonomous beings , that think and make choices themselves , and have their own reactions , from there own point of view . For many reasons , one of which is that it would be boring to have a horse that just does everything I say , with no other opinion . But then that is just me :green:

Yes, you understand this right :) I want that my horse ignores his instinct. But only one instinct- instinct to escape :) I think that it would be a big mistake if I will be walking with my horses outside the pasture and my horse scare up and escapes. During flight, in great fear can realy hurt hisself. I do not want this situation ever occurred. I don't want that when I ride on my horse he scare up and run with me by street with cars or we fall into a hole.

Rose,
Quote:
I'm sorry, I don't think I phrased that quite right. I still think that you can influence your horse's emotions. I didn't mean, however, that I always need her to be in the emotion I want her to be- when I said that, I meant it in the sense that people have to ability to calm down a horse by remaining calm themselves, and help the horse get over their fear. I've noticed that when the person is scared because the horse is scared, neither can calm down very easily. Their emotion influence each other. I hope that makes a bit more sense?

I agree with you and it makes sense for me. But I should told you that during my way with horses I met people which create their emotions. There were not sincere emotions, it was acting. Some horses are not sensitive enough to distinguish a good acting game from the real intention. Either these people can deliberately created to make a mental and emotional state and change their emotions on cue. I saw with my own eyes how at one time a horse with a very peaceful state suddenly jumped in ecstasy and began to rage. And I do not support such methods.
But calming down the horse by calming myself is right for me :)
Quote:
Horses very easily perceive our emotions. I think that horses are smart enough to tell when those emotions are directed at them or not, too. Horse can tell when you're mad at them, or at something else.
I disagree :)

Would you mind if I asked why? :)

When I am on pasture and do something with one of my horse, then the second horse thinks that I do this with him too ;)
When I ask Princess about move then Pagoda do the same (I don't ask Pagoda about this, I don't look at her, nothing).
When I am on pasture with one of my dog and I call him, that he run to me then my horses come to me too.
I need to work very very hard if I want if one of my horse stays and one of them comes with me. Examples can be many.
My dogs don't understand too. If my intentions are focused on one of my dog, other dogs think that my intentions are focused on them too. When I come back to home from work and I am little irritated my dog know this and he will not come to me....but when I am happy he runs tu me and greets me. If I ask my dog about not jump on me then other dogs stop jump on me too.

Yogini,
Quote:
This state of mind is not easy to attain by average people. Congratulations, if you did/do. I try myself as well, but I reach it rarely. Then it feels like coming home, just indescribable. But I can t control this state of mind in the sense of getting into it and leaving it deliberately. It just comes and vanishes "as it likes to". Do you have a concrete tipp for me, something that helped you? :f: What do you do if thoughts and emotions come up?

I don't know if we understand and live the same "here and now" :) When I am here and now I really feel that I back to home and I feel like a small child which I was many years ago. Everything is transparent, simple and good. All I can accept, I feel peace and joy in the soul. Besides, I'm fully aware of what I'm doing and what is happening around me.
What I do to be at this state of mind? I do not practice breathing ;) I do tai chi but I don't focus on respiration, but I focus on my movement and energy. And what is the most important for me is that I think that I am not a perfect man and I will never be. I do not belive, that I am able to go to enlightenment alone. I belive, and it work for me, that when I give my imperfection, all worries, all the pain for my God I will be free. He is for me the one who will be happy to liberate me from insanity. I can be free only when I completely give myself for Him and entrust all my fate in His hands. Because He knows me better than me and He knows what I need more that me. He created the horse, not me, and He also knows better than me what the horse needs. Therefore I totally rely on my God.
When something goes wrong and I can't focus then I pray to my God and I ask Him to give me more confidence, serenity and faith on what He is doing with me and with my life.
I do not focus on my own spiritual development very much, not meditate for hours and do not do yoga for hours.
Just pray and ask God for that I and horses, which He created, and that put in my life, get along with each other and live together in harmony. I ask Him about direct my life so that I could provide my horses what they need and what they want, that I I could see their wishes and make them happy. From day to day is better. And my muting is related only and exclusively with the strength of my faith in Him :)
Quote:
I want to add, that I don t want to suppress thoughts and emotions, once they are there. They are part of this moment and wether the horse can perceive them or their energy or not, they are a good information for me myself. So I don t want to miss them, but I want to decide myself, if I could use them in a moment or not, instead of being overwhelmed by them. Is that understandable?

Yes, I understand :) But here and now are only clean and clear emotions and they are very calm. This is not the same emotions as the race of everyday life :)


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:23 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
I forgot to write that when I am here and now I feel that time does not exist. This is the feeling as if everything stopped in place. The smell and beauty of surrounded world is extraordinary. Everything is full of life and I feel it.


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:05 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:19 am
Posts: 82
Location: America
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But I should told you that during my way with horses I met people which create their emotions. There were not sincere emotions, it was acting. Some horses are not sensitive enough to distinguish a good acting game from the real intention. Either these people can deliberately created to make a mental and emotional state and change their emotions on cue.


I can see what you mean. Horses can tell what you're really feeling, not what you want them to think you feel. That's something I love about horses- they see you as you are, and still accept you for it. It makes the interaction feel natural, not for pretend.


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:49 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Rose,
Quote:
Horses can tell what you're really feeling, not what you want them to think you feel. That's something I love about horses- they see you as you are, and still accept you for it. It makes the interaction feel natural, not for pretend.

Yes, horses tell you who you really are, but some people are so good actors, that they are able to empathize with his role so much that they honestly feel it, perchaps most of actors are able to cry on cue and live it or some of them are able to feel and experience the deep joy and great excitement. Not every horse is able to see the disagreement. I personally am not in favor of this type of methods in dealing with horses.
And if Your horses accept you when you are sad of when you feel pain in your soul so Congratulations :applause:
My horses hate when I am sad and they go to furious, especially my Princess ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:00 am
Posts: 565
Location: Scotland
Wind of change wrote:
Ali wrote:
If I understand this right , you are asking the horse to ignore their own instincts and rather follow your lead ? . :smile:
For me , I would never want to have this , as I like my horses to be autonomous beings , that think and make choices themselves , and have their own reactions , from there own point of view . For many reasons , one of which is that it would be boring to have a horse that just does everything I say , with no other opinion . But then that is just me :green:


Yes, you understand this right :) I want that my horse ignores his instinct. But only one instinct- instinct to escape :) I think that it would be a big mistake if I will be walking with my horses outside the pasture and my horse scare up and escapes. During flight, in great fear can realy hurt hisself. I do not want this situation ever occurred. I don't want that when I ride on my horse he scare up and run with me by street with cars or we fall into a hole.


I have written about what I would do in a situation such as you describe here :smile:

For me it is not about asking the horse to supress and ignore his instinct , than rather help him come to his own conclusion that he does not need to escape :)

:f:


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:44 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Dear Ali,
I started reading your rethink :) It's very nice and very interesting, but I have little problem to catch your general concept and imagine what it looks like in real life.
Do you have some movie that would represent it as you write?


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:18 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Quote:
Who would you prefer with you if you were in the jungle and saw a tiger/leopard in the forest - someone who proactively looks with you and is also concerned and get prepared , or someone who completely ignores you and carries on blindly not registering the possible danger .

I think that here is very important question.
Personally I think that I would be feel safer if I will be with person which know what it is and which know what to do in every situation. If I will be in the jungle with guide (leader) and I will saw a snake, but I will see that my guide is ok with this and see this snake but ignore it I think that I will be feel safe.
But I am very interesting in your point of view, when you was talking about run around on long rope. I would like to really see how it looks like (I mean the horse posture, his movement, his body language, muscle tension,......).
Personally I think taht you have very good relations with your hore :) And your horse is beautiful! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:00 am
Posts: 565
Location: Scotland
Thank you Ania :kiss:

Wind of change wrote:
Personally I think that I would be feel safer if I will be with person which know what it is and which know what to do in every situation. If I will be in the jungle with guide (leader) and I will saw a snake, but I will see that my guide is ok with this and see this snake but ignore it I think that I will be feel safe.


It is funny that you have chosen this analogy , as I have been in this situation :) .
It is very unlikely , unless you have a bad guide , that the guide would ignore the snake , or have a completely calm emotional state in this situation . In my experience , and to my logic , The guide would express
concern - "Where is this snake ?" , " Everyone keep still ,let me see ", and he would then identify the snake to see , if it indeed is a snake , if it is a poisonous one , and if it is a attacking one . If it was a poisonous , attacking one , he certainly would not be calm , but he would not be freaking out either . He would be worried , but he would make a judgement on this . Also if I should feel so scared by this , or I did not want to continue on this hike or walk , or that I did not want to continue on this snakey way , he would accommodate this , listening to me worries and taking them seriously and acting on them , maybe letting me walk in the middle of the group , or showing me his snake bite aid kit , or even , if I am extremely scared by this , turning around and going back . The recognition of my fear , people understanding and being proactive in making me feel more at ease , or giving me the option to stop , would make me feel a lot safer .

Though this snake analogy is not a very good one in terms of what I was talking about , though snakes do to kill humans , they have never been predators to them . In other words , a snake would not track down or follow a human , and then attack it and kill , and as a horse is a herbivore prey animal , we have to operate this analogy under a prey situation :smile: - which is why I used a Leopard , or a Tiger . Also , In my first analogy , I was not saying there was a leopard , just that I thought I caught a glimpse , or I heard/smelt one . Meaning there may be one in the vicinity and could attack . Again , the proactive thinking , recognition ,taking my fear seriously and acting on this would make me feel a lot better and safer .

Quote:
But I am very interesting in your point of view, when you was talking about run around on long rope. I would like to really see how it looks like (I mean the horse posture, his movement, his body language, muscle tension,......).


Sorry , I am not sure what situation you are talking about , what would you like me to elaborate on ?

Quote:
It's very nice and very interesting, but I have little problem to catch your general concept and imagine what it looks like in real life.
Do you have some movie that would represent it as you write?


I do not , sorry , I have never had someone to film this for me . All my videos are taken by just putting the camera on the ground , so I can only do this in the pasture :smile:

:f:


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:06 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Ali,
Quote:
I do not , sorry , I have never had someone to film this for me . All my videos are taken by just putting the camera on the ground , so I can only do this in the pasture :smile:

ok, I understand you :) Never mind ;)
Quote:
Sorry , I am not sure what situation you are talking about , what would you like me to elaborate on ?

I was interesting how your horse reacts for your body langueage when he is scared and he has a great need to move and how many time it takes that he could focus again on you.
This is imoprtant for me because it could help me with my relations with Pagoda.

I had many situation with Pagoda when she is scared and in our situations are very diffrent. Her behaviour is affected by numerous external factors and type of stimulus of fear. And her reaction is very different.
I like your idea about
Quote:
"Where is this snake ?" , " Everyone keep still ,let me see "
, but for me it is to perform only when I see that my horse feels anxiety, and yet does not escape.
Sometimes is that my Pagoda is very calm and suddenly hears something and in one second she runs. It all happens very quickly, it might be the sound of the plane that exceed the sound barrier or suddenly scream big bird in the bushes, crane or wild goose. We did not see it and do not feel, and suddenly heard a great shout. And sometimes I can stop Pagoda by my calm, that she sees that I ignore this, that she thinks that everything is ok and no big deal happen. It's like I told her: "it's just a bird, he does not scare me"
But sometimes is that, and I am not sure whether this is a fear and this is a desire to escape from fear, maby this is something else which I can't understand. I will tell you, maby you will be know.
When we walking and everything is ok, she is focus on me, on grazing and everywere is calm. And suddenly, and I do not understand the reason, my Pagoda turns her head away from me, pushes me by her shoulder and then she turns her croup to me and begins run, if I hold the line she will kick me, I have to let her go and I haven't choise and then she runs to neighboring horses.
I don't know what to do. Sometimes is everything ok, but sometimes such things happen. What is this, do you know?
May it be that Pagoda lives only with Princess on the pasture and she feels lonely, does she need larger herd? I can't give it for her.


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:00 am
Posts: 565
Location: Scotland
Ania , I have no time right now , but I will reply to this soon .
For now you may find the dealing with scared horses sticky to be interesting for you . :smile:
:f:


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:10 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:22 pm
Posts: 43
Ok, thank you :f:


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 Post subject: Re: Being a leader
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:00 am
Posts: 565
Location: Scotland
Have you read the encouraging politeness sticky? Because this would be very helpful to you in creating a body language conversation with Pagoda .

Body language dialogue - and being able to ask for the horses attentiveness and attention is very important for me , as as long as I have the horses attentiveness , everything else does not really matter , as long as we are communicating with each other
If you search micro-movement , and energy mimicry in the search engine you will find some interesting posts on this :smile:

There is a lovely video of Nelly binding her body language with Onti's ....

Also this small post on asking for attentiveness and mirror-micro-movements

and also Romy playing with Froni

I hope this helps you :)

:f:


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