The Art of Natural Dressage

Ok, again, it has been forever since I have been on here let alone posted. I miss reading and watching all your amazing horses! But now I am in desperate need of help =/ A small Crescent update: He has learned jambette on both sides, one where he stamps his foot, and one that is beautiful and graceful; he clearly prefers his left side. And cordeo cues and playing with the tree stump and I have sat on him a handful of times. He is coming along very well. Except for front crunch(sorry i will try to keep this brief, i have to remember this isn't a diary post). What i've had him been doing is parking out, then leaning down. Now, he does this kind of well, but only over a pile of logs, and his head comes to the bottom of his barrel. That is not a real front crunch and i know it. He can go deep in that one, but he really isn't that fond of it... I decided to just play with him today. We started out well, but when he kept not understanding what i was asking for the front crunch and i didn't know how to ask in a way he would understand, we both got very frustrated and didn't end on that great of a note So i really need help getting him to do a proper front crunch. I think our main issue is keeping his feet still, and leaning back. He follows my hand just fine, but it takes a lot to get him to lean back. I also read the entire front and back crunch sticky, so any fresh ideas would be wonderful. I hate the way today went and that we were both so frustrated with each other at the end, it was just bad overall. It was also very loud and windy and distractiony though, so that definitely didn't help. Thanx in advance, I really appreciate anyone reading or responding to this, you expertise is much needed!

It's interesting, for some horses this really seems to be challenging. Summy also didn't really understand the leaning back/down part of the front crunch for a long time, and now he still doesn't do it very consistently. However, what helped him is when I am not pushing backwards with my hand at his chest but asking him to lower his body by targeting my hand with his belly (the lowest part of where the girth of a saddle would be positioned).

Still I am very interested in hearing the others' suggestions, perhaps there will be something that will help us as well.

I'm not quite sure if I understand correctly what you can do already and what not. But I'll try to write you some of my experiences with the front crunch.

It took me a long time to get Mucki to do a proper front crunch. What I got early and quite easy was a deep stretch between the forelegs when he was standing with them on a pedestal. Maybe that's what you experience with the pile of logs you mentioned?
That stretch though was not at all mentally linked for Mucki with the image of the front crunch that I wanted. Mucki is also not a horse who does the front crunch naturally very much or very accentuated, so I assume it's depending a lot on the type of horse as well.

I started to park out the front legs and then tried to lower his head. That worked so and so, but mostly ended up in leaning too much on one foreleg, so that when I asked for a backwards movement, we ended up in a bow.

I let the front crunch rest for a long time and only recently came back to it with a new strategy. I used my hand target to guide his head straight down from a normal, square standing position. I rewarded him for following my hand further and further down without shifting the weight to either leg, but keeping a nice, equal weight balance on the front legs. That was the most important thing for us!

It is much harder to stretch down without bending one leg, so as soon as he understood that he was supposed to keep his legs straight, I could guide his head backward with my hand-target and he would keep the legs straight and firm, but park out the hindlegs a bit to compensate and then take on more weight on the hindlegs.
The trick was for us, not to touch the breast with my hand as this would get him into jambette-mode pretty quick. Instead I switched to the other hand which I presented him as target from behind and between his front legs.

I hope my description doesn't confuse you any further - it's not so easy for me to describe these things precisely

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Volker

The horse owes us nothing.

Thank you both so very much! I am excited to try both of your ideas with Crescent! I actually tried what Volker suggested on my own before I had a chance to read the replies for lack of a computer. I asked him to step up onto the stump then lean back as what I believe is similar to what you mentioned (: however, I only did it once, and it was a good few days ago and much happened since then, so I don't remember exactly how he responded, but I believe it was so-so. I have an idea and I would like your opinions?: I lower him into a front-crunch; the one he does where he essentially touched his barrel. Then while keeping him lowered, encourage his head forward above his legs and give the eventual cue that will hopefully signal front crunch in the future while treating? Does this sound like it would work? Thoughts? Any changes you would make to the plan? Thank you all so much for your help!!! I will also try to get a picture so I can give an idea of what I can get him to do, although that will prove a challenge since my bestie Kala leaves for college tomorrow morning <3

Images, or even videos would be fantastic. If you don't have anyone taking pictures for you, you could just put up the camera on a tripod and film yourself.

I just realised that there is (at least for me) a bit of an ambiguity concerning the front crunch. For me there are two forms, the Plié and the Obeisance.
Both are basically different versions of the same exercise, but when training a movement, the vision of the end result in mind is very important I think. For some horses (like Mucki) it seems easier to start with the head between the legs, establish a cue for shifting the weight back and then shape the same exercise with the head held higher. For some horses it is surely easier to start with the natural stretching movement.

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Volker

The horse owes us nothing.

Thank you so much Volker, I now must find a tripod! What I have at the moment is essentially a combo of both pictures, I have his head in the Obeisance but a little farther, and his body is stretched like in the Plié . I will try to get a tripod for you guys b/c I know it probably will help. He stretches quite well, he just likes to step back if I don't lower his head then lean him back. And because I'm at his side focused on him, I don't know if he is holding his weight properly with his hind legs...

Maybe a box, chair or anything might just do?

That sounds like you have a lovely crunch already!? What is it that you are missing, or want to improve?

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Volker

The horse owes us nothing.

Haha thank you, I will do my best next time I am out! I am aiming for something more like the Plie(I don't know how to do the accent over the e) where his head is above his legs, because Crescent's at the moment is at his chest/barrel, well under his legs. It's a nice stretch, but it doesn't feel... solid, if that makes sense. And thank you so much for all of your help! It has certainly given me something to think about

So he stretches in the way you want and you would just like the head to go up? If that is the case, you could try rewarding him for touching your hand with his nose. If this makes him get out of the stretch, you could try sandwiching the two parts together (i.e. alternating between stretch and hand touch). Or even easier: you could simply give the treat while he is still down in the stretch, but then with your hand at the position where you would like his nose to be. But just like Volker said, I think a video would be very helpful for us to better understand the problem and be able to make more specific suggestions.

I was at a Dr. Deb Bennett clinic about two weeks ago (long story, difficult but very good clinic!). Dr. Deb suggested that the front crunch with the head between the legs was the more healthy stretch as it rounded the back. Tam does the Plie mostly (with his head up), so she suggested I convince him to put his head down between his legs.

If the horse it buckling over at the front fetlock, you can ask the horse to spread the front feet wider before asking them to lean back and down. This seems to help although may not solve the issue entirely (if that is an issue, that is).

Sometimes too, you need to teach the movement as a series of separate smaller components. If you need to teach the horse to lean back, do that separately and don't ask for them to go too far...reward frequently for leaning back. I taught Tam to lean back with the cordeo (a backward and downward movement of the cordeo). They will often learn to move their back feet further back on their own if you teach the lean back by itself. If my horse offered to move his back feet back on his own, I would reward that alone for awhile. I haven't taught Tam to spread his front feet on his own...I do that for him as part of the request that he do the obeisance (this separates the request very clearly from how I ask him to bow).

If the horse is offering a bow, reward frequently BEFORE they bow. Simple as that. The horse will stop offering it. Make very sure that when you ask for the obeisance, that you aren't presenting the question too similarly to how you ask for a bow. I also reach my hand around the top of the nearest foreleg (I put my hand around the back of the elbow and reach it around until it's resting on the front of his leg) and pull back softly. With this cue he now goes back and down into the stretch. It's very, very different to the way I ask for the bow.

Because this is an extreme stretch and not one that I see Tam doing on his own, ever, I do not ever ask him to go farther than he is willing to freely offer. He alone knows how it feels, so he alone judges how far he will go. Sometimes he will stretch very deep, and sometimes very shallow. It's up to him. I also do not repeat it more than two or three times in a session.

I hope this helps...a little?

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

Great comment, Karen! I read that too, that the Plié position is not very healthy (especially if done with rider). Don't know about the Obeisance, but I think all those exercises should be done with caution and without coercion. I always hope that Mucki knows when to stop .

As I explained earlier, I resolved that by shaping an downward head movement first, where both feet are firmly on the ground with the weight equally distributed. That way it's harder to do (which is probably the reason for buckling one leg in the first place), but if done in small increments, the gymnastic effect is exactly what I want. A second effect was that Mucki tried to find a broad (and stretched) leg position by himself, as he tried to fit his head between the legs while keeping both legs equally on the ground .

But with those exercises I think the main principle is to try what works with what horse. Try to explain a gymnastic exercise to two people without words - you'll certainly get very different results

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Volker

The horse owes us nothing.

Hi everyone, thank you sososo much for the great replies, I plan to put them to use! It has been over a week since I last saw C, and I think that really helped with today; he'd had time to think about what I accidently forced on him with so much training and for us to start on what felt like a new slate, so nice. I asked him to do some backcrunches/stretches, and he did so great! I have a video uploading that will show what I was taking about with his stretch. I positioned the camera poorly on the fence though, so it's not the best video, plus my camera take the WORST video quality, but hopefully it will give and idea Again, I have loved reading everyone's replies! I think they will really help! I had an idea of how to work on getting his head up, make having his head okay for when I give the bakcrunch cue(will take a while, I know) then when he understands the cue and performs the exercise, draw his head up and slowly merge it into the exercise at his own pace? Thank you all, you rock!

video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9LDei9Wa3I&feature=youtu.be
you can see where near the end of the video he really leans into the stretch on his own. And where I squeal and praise him reeeaally loud, forgot to get rid of the noise