The Art of Natural Dressage

Pia is a little girl of 2.5 years. When she still was with her half-brother, I sometimes saw them playing pretty rough games, like jumping on each other, biting each other in the mane and pressing each other down. When I remember my own childhood, I loved to play the human version of that with one of my sisters and even now I am playing similar things with the wilder ones of my neighbour children, where for example they grab my legs and try to pull me down to the ground. Lately I have been wondering if Pia misses that a bit over here. She can't play pseudo-aggressive games or have mock fights wit Titum and Summy - they would simply turn this into a real fight and run her over. So I am thinking of playing with her in this way a bit more.

The thing is that those games are based on free will as a whole (both partners join willingly and each of them can stop it or leave anytime) but within the games there is, by definition, a lot of pressure. For example when we are wrestling in the hay and I try to pull her legs away or push her down to the ground of course that is not about asking, but about making her do something - although in a fun way.

She squeals, shakes her head and pushes against me. Generally I do trust my ability to judge if things are fun for her, but still I do have some doubts about playing those games. About when to play like that, the time frame and their role in our interaction. Concerning this, I want to emphasize that I do NOT try to get her to do certain things in that way, that I do not want to get her respect and I do not see those games as any form of dominance or leadership rituals. I find it interesting that many people here in the forum are trying the more leadership-like stuff out at the moment, but for me and my horses that is just not our cup of tea. I do not plan to show Pia anything with those rough games - just trying to find something appropriate and fun for a young pony to meet her needs. I do believe that sometimes it is a good and necessary feeling to be dominated (or maybe better say challenged) - in play. The important thing for me and the little difference which makes it play is to know that you can stop it anytime without any negative consequences and in that way you still have full control over what is happening to you on a more global level.

But I find it really hard to clearly notice what is your horse's feeling and what is your own projection and perspective in situations like that, only because I do mean it to be fun and don't try to REALLY dominate her, that does not necessarily mean that she perceives it the same way. I think there is a thin line between still being play and getting serious and I hope not to cross it without even noticing.

Haha, not sure what exactly I want to ask with this thread, maybe just read some of your thoughts on rough playing, maybe get some practical advice. Experiences? Warnings? Anything? If I can think of a more specific question later, I will post it here, but at the moment there are just some loose thoughts spinning through my head and I'd like to discuss this.

I think this is why I am exploring what Carolyn Resnick does...not to just jump in and do it, because something tells me that "taking territory" is not what I need with Tam (and certainly not with Cisco) at least not in a driving away fashion. Somehow I think we are beyond that...but I want to understand what she knows, from her perspective, and why she thinks it is appropriate and I'm curious to see whether or not I come to believe that she has some real insight to horse language. I just want to understand more...then perhaps I can better evaluate how my horses are feeling at a given moment...to understand more than I do now.

I don't feel I need more "leadership"...but am always eager to learn more about how my horses may think...so I can better judge if I do something that would be counter productive for the horses.

I am constantly fascinated but not overly concerned, with Tam's ears. They don't mean aggression...so what exactly DO they mean? Do they mean worry or concern? If so, then I do need to change something in myself.

And I do think that is more important above all...not what we do with the horses, but how they perceive what we do, and how they filter that through horse eyes. The more we can fathom and try to understand that...hopefully without human bias...then the farther I can take this friendship.

I'm actually really looking forward to a video of you and Pia rolling around in the hay in a pony/Romy wrestling match!

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

I've been thinking about this a lot, too. Blue Eagle has never tried to play rough with me, of course she's a lot bigger and heavier than a pony. I think she realizes how much easier I could be hurt. I remember playing the kinds of games you describe with one of our fairly large goats several years ago. She weighed about 150 lbs. and it was fun for both of us. I stopped playing rough with her because I was concerned she might try the same with my daughter who was only 6 at the time. I naturally lean very much towards caution (more the older I get) and now my main questions are how likely my horse is to accidently slip or misstep and hurt me or herself if I wind her up too much, also if she would generalize what I do with her to other people who won't appreciate it. Maybe I'm just getting old.

I can understand what you mean... I also don't want to get into a 'domination thing' this doesn't exist at my place also not in playing rough (as much I can do that without being killed ). But indeed, what does a horse REALLY want and what are you able to compensate when a playmate from a similar species is not there... Squealing can mean extreme anger or discomfort... or extreme pleasure... I guess Pia can leave when she wants to? and she is not feeling the need to protect her own space? For instance Atreyu will stay in her stable even when Imperia bites her (and she squeals) because she wants to defend 'her' Evita and her stable. So when you play in an open area and not in a place she calls her own and wants to defend I guess it must be fun for her But this is the case when she can do to you what you do to her... With Imperia she does right back what I do to her... I guess this is really equality.. is this possible with Pia?
Does she looks angry or irritated? I see that Imperia gets irritated when I provoke her for example.
So nice she is so small that you can play this way!!!!

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That´s so nice to read. Of course I knew how things were working at your place in this respect, both from your writing and from actually seeing you interact with your horses, but lately I felt a bit surrounded by leadership ideas coming up from different people everywhere and I even tended to feel a bit crazy for what I think we are doing, or like asking myself if maybe I was a bit dishonest to myself for believing that I do not include dominance into the equation of my interaction with the horses... So your statement is really refreshing for me in a way. Maybe we are not nuts after all (or if we are, we are nuts together).



Well, and that´s what I also thought before I got Pia. With her though, squealing has absolutely nothing to do with extremes. She can eat hay, see that Titum is looking at her from 3 meters distance, squeal and then immediately start eating again. She can squeal when I sit next to her in the hay and touch her mane to disentangle some hay. Or when I put a finger at her leg in order to ask her for her hoof while she does not really feel like giving it. She frequently squeals for almost nothing.

It is not pleasure for her but discomfort. This is not only serious discomfort though, but also the slight discomfort that you have when your friend is tickling you (if you are not very ticklish so that it is not really awful for you) or playfully pulling your hair. Sort of "Eeeey, what do you think you are doing! "

And that is, for me at least, an important part of rough play - that it´s NOT comfortable and easy-going but playfully aggressive and making the other one submit (in play) or at least annoying him a bit. Just like young colts play on the pasture.



She can leave whenever she wants and she has no problem with leaving (funnily she never does it when I am annoying her whereas she does it sometimes when she is bored by something in our training). She can even have it easier and stop the game by simply just not engaging in it anymore, which I prefer to leaving, because who am I to come to her home and impose something on her that she can only get rid of by leaving?



That´s the great thing about small ponies, because this is possible without becoming dangerous with her. Our games are not that rough yet though, because she is still a bit reluctant and I mimic her in her level of assertiveness. For now she only slightly pushes into me, sometimes snaps or goes after me with her mouth wide open or climbs on me while I am sitting, so I am not that pushy yet either, in order not to become the dominant one and make her feel bad about it.

I'll write a funny story about Imperia in my Diary ...
I'm wondering.. why all that fuss about domination? Does anyone ever asks her/himself "oh that friend of mine takes that chair before me, he/she must be behaving dominant over me" Just grab another chair, sit down and enjoy yourself

That Pia is squealing about everything A real mare

Indeed not participating is better than her having to leave ! And I think you hit the nail right in the head when you say to mimic her !!! When she does not want you to do certain things she can just stop to do them herself that's great and so SMART! I think you are doing great things!!! No worries!

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I think that many get the term "leadership" and "boss" or "dominant" intertwined with one another.

My understanding and years of observation of equine social heirarchy is that a horse NEEDS to have a leader ... and if not, then that horse HAS TO BE the leader. Now, Leader doesn't mean "boss" or "dominance" but think of an honest-to-goodness awesome Leader ... one who sets examples, teaches, guides, aids, nurtures, cares, is compassionate; one to whom one can go for counsel and protection ... these are all terms used to describe a "leader". Quite different from dominance and domineering.

While I don't ever want to be the "dominant" one I do want mutual respect between me and my horses and want my horses (some of which are over #1300 pounds so I need some safety boundaries!) to respect my space as much as I respect theirs. If a horse does not see the other as his "leader" then that horse can and will walk right over and through a lesser ranking horse just as a matter of equine social behavior. I don't want to be that lesser ranking horse because I'm not that big and can't hold a candle to 1300# of horse! If I'm standing next to one of my guys and he spooks, I'd rather he NOT try to jump on top of me or into my lap. On the other hand I DO want them to "look to me' for their protection ... just in a safe and respectful way.

Not being higher ranking than your horse can land you in some distinct trouble and possible injury. Horses DO play and I play with mine all the time BUT they know not to be too close to me when they throw out a hoof in the air or be to close to me when they rear up in play cause they know that I AM their leader. But once again, its always a 2 way street ... one must earn respect in order to get it ... and one must give respect in return.

JMO. -- Gwen

That being said, I do have to add that with time and nurturing that "leader/follower" relationship can turn to a mutual PARTNERSHIP and that is always my goal ... a partnership with my horses in which we have our own responsibilities .. mine never to cause harm to my horse and to protect him/her and visa versa!

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-- Gwen
www.thepenzancehorse.com
www.barefoottrim.com
www.horsecourses.net
www.spirithorse.us

Hi Gwen,

nice to read from you again. I guess that´s just where opinions differ - I for one do not see leadership as a precondition for mutual respect and I also don´t try to imitate herd behaviour when I interact with my horses. But I guess that in this aspect everyone is different and that is a good thing. If you are interested in leadership discussions, maybe you want to continue in one of those threads. I´d love to read about your opinions and experiences.

Warm Regards,
Romy

Dear Caballus,

Indeed, for what we from an AND perspective see as leadership, please follow the link Romy gave you



First of all, I have different experiences. From what I have found out, is that horses are very much democratic. I think, we humans should study their politics, for theirs actually work and benefit all and not just some.

What I see, is that every one has a different task in the herd, sort of the right man/woman for the job in the right place.
The alpha does not always make the decission. I believe they do in cases of where to go, emergencies etc.
But perhaps not always over illness, childcare etc.

I can go in to this deep, but I am not for I do not want to polute Pia's topic.

What I am going to say is, that I am not trying to be leader of my horses, as now, this seems utter ridiculous to me. More and more I feel rather a stupid human
So, leader is Owen. We have never any problem, he treats me like a princess. Also the wahy he interacts with me, very much sets the standard for how the other horses do, which is really very nice

When I was a child, I went out with my overly large horse Jimmy. He was a very difficult horse for others. I went out hacking on his back and just let him go where he wanted. We had the best of times, even took naps together in far away and abandoned pastures.
Never the thought crossed my mind that I needed to decide anything or be boss of him.
I could say tho: oh look over there, what beautiful trees! shall we go and look? And he would run over there.
He always passed the busy roads calmly, I trusted him not to run underneeth a car, as cleary he had eyes... I never questioned his intelligence, it just never crossed my mind.

Years later, when I was told I, gloriuos and intelligent human, should be leader and boss of horse, the trouble started.
Always fights and frustration.

Until thanks to Owen, who nearly killed me, I let go and started to be child again. I let hem free, and now I am free.

Romy... I am working with a tiny huge horse just like Pia... oh he is so lovely, I'll ask Ralph to make pictures soon!
I do the same thing, mimicing his way of interaction. But I did not realise it, that is the core of my work with horses untill you spelled it out for me, thanks!

I can 't wait to have you over again and see you play with the Don, who is waiting for you!

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www.equusuniversalis.com

For us the dominance - no dominance thing is quite geographical: in the paddock where the ponies and I just play with each other, train at liberty for collection and experiment with everything, there's no strict dominance at all, and not necessary either. The ponies suggest games and movements, develop their own stuff and I go with that or suggest my own ideas. There's no 'my way or the highway' or strict guidance with consequences at all.

However, when we leave the paddock and are in the Real World with all the possible dangers lurking around the corner, I become more dominant, or at least more directive. That has nothing to do with the tools I use (still the cordeo, only a halter when truly necessary (in our case, when confronted with large fields of seductive grass when we really need to do something else than graze for the rest of the week ) but more with the fact that my cues have more weight (walk is walk, halt is halt) and need to be listened to.

The interesting thing for me is that the pony's know very well the difference between when I'm in charge, and when I'm just one of the guys. They don't seem confused about it at all, even when of course they act dfferently in both situations: when I'm in charge, no alternatives allowed, they follow my cues very correct and quick, but also seem to become a bit bored or dull mentally. They become a bit more quiet. And when we're all playing together, the pony's listen less exact to the same cues (because they can also ignore them or offer alternatives) but become much more lively mentally and much more engaged in the training, offering their own ideas etc..

I actually was thinking about that again the past days as now I've started running with the ponies, I follow a coach-program on my musicplayer when running and follow the cues of the woman-voice-coach, no talking back allowed. We run when we run and walk when we walk, me and Blacky who I take with me every time as well. The interesting thing is that he now is very precise about the running and walking cues when doing that, not offering anything else and I was afraid that that would make him a bit dull. However, in the evening when we have our regular natural dressage training, he doesn't hesitate at all to offer all kinds of new movements so he doesn't seem to be bothered by this difference at all. Yesterday he actually offered a balotade for the first time!
Of course it was only 20 cm high, but he offered it up to three times and I was completely in awe with him, not thinking that we would ever do those kind of haute ecole jumps!

So, in conclusion, a more chaotic approach to training horses can actually lead to quite nice things.

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New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

ofcourse we are nuts

yesterday i was talking with some people who live next to the field were my ponys are. We talked about everything. Suddenly they ask. Who is the girl which is running in the field with the pony behind her. It looks so funny, just as a dog. when she run the pony run, when she stop teh pony stops. turns, jump etc.
i was laughing...thats me i said...what??? you???....why are you doing that? we have seen no-one else who do such things.
They see the other girls (ladys) in the fields next to my ponys. They do the "normal" stuff.

Then i am explaining why i keep horses and what i wanna reach. Then they understand it. They have dogs, which may walk outside when they wanted and inside when they wanted. They go for a walk with them without a lead and they listen very well.
So I think the people understand what i was talking about.

then they told about that the lady who is standing next to my field can not get her horse, that it will take everyday several minits mabey half an our or more to catch her horse. They simpley do not understand that she have no ritual to get her horse.
They said it is so simple to give the horse a tread or what else when he shows good behavior. So you can train dogs too.
it is so simple....


So yes Romy a big group think you are nuts or we are nuts....but we have a better...much...better relationship with our horses.
they may live as free as posible and may show their own individuality. Can be their own.
Listen to you horses and your own feelings, then you will know what you do is good or wrong.

And in this case as long pia looks happy dont worry