The Art of Natural Dressage

Edit by Romy: This topic is split from Enzo´s introduction.




Thank you Danee for your script. I have allready made all things that you wrote about. She can pass over the plastic tarp, cross the river, jump the barrel, pass lateraly with the barrel between front and hindlegs, you can touch her everywhere with plastic bag (But not when she see it at the stick point) with ropes and anything else. She works in the round pen very well and change gaites only with oral cue and sharp halts at "wo". She kneels, lies down, bow with only one leg, begins to crunch with front legs.
I did not explain very well in the previous post: the arcanous is realy that: she seemingly does'nt be afraid of nothing when she works in the manège and seems collaborate with umans. The problem arrives when we go outside: every change of contrast becames a danger for her life and she looks around with suspect continuously.
The question is. Pressures made apparently a good job in training her but i dont have his

I send the post by mistake, sorry.I restart from where I had left.

She does'nt trust me. Is the pressure the real cause of that situation?
Then i ask to Josepha. How can i modify my behavior to achieve her confidence? But i need some practical, not philosophical suggestions.
I am ready to change but i have to know how. That you love to say: look at the horse, he will tell you weather to do, is not so simple to interpretate and practice.
I hope that you won't interpret the things that I have said as a polemic.
I am really spellbound from your ideas but I want to succeed in understanding whether to put her in practice.
By and thankyou.
One more thing, i cannot insert my avatar. I used the same site that i used for inserting my photos, but he says "URL invalid nymore". Is there any place where i can see the solution?

Hi Enzo:

I think, from my experiences with my two horses, that pressure does cause a lack of trust (or at least can) if horses are pressured to accept something they're afraid of, rather than being given opportunities to explore and understand it.

Here are some of the things that I have tried that seem to be helping a lot:

1. My filly Circe was getting more and more nervous as we walked around the ranch, balking all the time. I stopped trying to insist that we had to go any particular place, and let her decide how quickly she wanted to go, and where she wanted to go.

I learned a lot from this! She was willing to explore, but she wanted to do it in her way. She wanted to go look and smell and touch a lot of the things at the ranch (trailers, wheelbarrows, benches, etc.). I figured since she saw them every day, she understood what they were. I was wrong! She needed to investigate them.

Letting her do this was really helpful -- she began to be excited about looking at new things rather than just shutting down. And it taught me that my walking with her on the end of the rope, dragging, pushing, or even asking her gently to go with me where I wanted her to, as fast as I wanted her to was VERY different than allowing her to explore her world. When I finally figured out how to truly stop wanting to be in control all of the time, this became a cornerstone of everything we've been learning since. I don't come to working/playing with her with a sense of being generous if I listen to her opinion any longer -- instead, that's where we start. Then we can try things and she can feel free to say yes or no -- and we can both enjoy them because I'm not forcing her to do anything.

So you could spend some time doing this with your mare (this is Leda?). She gets to decide where she wants to go, how fast, for how long -- you trade places so you are being taken for the walk, not her. (It's also a really good way to check and see how often you're pushing her without even realizing it -- I learned quickly how impatient I was about letting her stop and graze because I'd get bored and want to do something else! So it was a very good exercise for me, too!)

2. The second thing that has helped a lot is to bring treats with me when we go out into a place that might be scary, and to feed treats quickly when they get nervous. We're doing positive operant conditioning here (Brenda has done a whole lot of this with her horses Lucy and Jack, getting them happy to walk free with her in the forest around her house), and we're also releasing endorphins from food -- so we are behaviorally and chemically changing what it means to be in a potentially scary situation.

3. The third thing I do when we're somewhere they're not sure of is that I talk to them a LOT -- I explain what we're looking at, where we are going, why I think it will be fun, and that I will do my best to protect them from anything that might scare them. It sounds funny, but this does make a difference -- part of it is that they're hearing my voice and it's calm, so that is calming to them, part of it is that they are getting a lot of calm energy from me, part of it is that it helps me to really be aware of what might be around that is making them nervous so I'm more sensitive to it, and part of it is, I think, that they really do understand more words than we think they do.

4. The fourth thing I've tried (and this is VERY interesting) comes from a suggestion from Sue -- this was actually a story she told on Carolyn Resnick's blog and I liked it so much I quoted it in my diary, only realizing after the fact that it was from Sue from this forum! In this story, she has consciously taken on the role of the horse on watch so her horses can relax.

You can find it on this page in my diary (scroll a little way down -- it's the big quote):

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1163&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=300


(And I don't think what you have said is polemic AT ALL!)

For me, the biggest piece has been to understand that I truly need to listen to them and respect them. For us, any sense of leadership that they have in me that feels real has come from my earning it -- by being trustworthy, patient, and generous, and working to keep them safe. It hasn't come from my insisting they do something they're scared of -- instead, when we take the time to work at it at their pace, within their comfort zones first, then I can help them push at the edges of those comfort zones a little bit and they trust that I won't push them too far.

Hope this is helpful!

All the best,
Leigh

_________________
"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com

Josepha (and Leigh's) points here are very important and likely hold the key to your dilemma Enzo!

Yes we can use pressure to get a horse to accept things. Heck, we can use pressure to get a horse to accept more pressure! But in "accepting" it are they happy with it?

No, of course not. What we teach them by "flooding"...the traditional means to teach a horse to accept scary things (I feel the "roper breaking" falls into this category), really just teaches them to extingush the outward signs of fear. We reward them for their ability to stop LOOKING fearful. When they shut down those outward signs, we stop flooding them. If we do it enough, then they learn that anything we present to them will have the same consequences if they don't immediately look outwardly calm.

But are they mentally ok? I don't think so. Not always. Not in an AND way.

If you force a horse in any way...even if you are very soft, your persistence is still a type of flooding...what you teach them is to shut down the exterior. That doesn't mean the mind is calm. That doesn't mean that the muscles just under the skin are relaxed.

What Leigh describes so wonderfully (and I think it is what Josepha means), is that you must honor the horse's true feelings and work WITH them. In flooding, you can in fact create an introverted personality, which, according to Parelli comes with it's own set of problems. With flooding, you in fact only teach a horse to internalize the fear...you don't teach them the confidence they need to deal with scary things you haven't yet encountered. And for a very sensitive horse, you don't teach them that you can deal with scary things together, you may only be teaching them that if they show fear, YOU will then be forced to face the very thing that terrifies them. That would only amplify the fear to the point they can't contain it, and a very vicious cycle begins that increasingly escalates tension.

In the spirit of natural dressage, you do not go out of your way to mask a horse's true representation of itself. You celebrate it. You show the horse that you appreciate it's natural expression. If the horse expression tension, you back off and ask less and allow them to learn naturally to increase their own tolerance levels. By honoring what they feel, they will trust more. If a horse exhibits courage, you praise and reward and celebrate what they have discovered within themselves. You do not ask more than they are willing to offer at a given moment. You don't ever tell a horse to suck it up and just deal with it.

If you tell them constantly that you don't care what they are feeling, you only drive them mentally, further and further away from a true bond.

We all can easily fall victim to this dilemma...and honestly, this discussion is doing a world of good for me to help clarify my own feelings and my own actions. I will succumb to the desire to use pressure from time to time. I'm not immune to this either. So this discussion is very good for me, as well. Thank you for starting it Enzo!!! You are already teaching me, by helping me to think. Thank you!

_________________
"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

Thank you, Leigh and Romy, slowly the And concepts are gaining significance. The first point that Leigh have suggested will be the solution of the Karexa problem (it's not Leda). When you say: let her explore trhe world around her, do you meen riding or groundworking?
I will try!!!! I want to realy try, but can i have to do if Karexa halts at the first patch of grass and does'nt stop grazing for hours. Sometimes i slack the reins and I leave her up to where she wants. I think you can imagine what happens: she backs and, no more afraid, slowly, returns home, directly to the box, without explorating anythings. I forgot to tell you something else. His fears appear especially when we go away from home while, when we back, she is much more quiet.
I have many other doubts but i think it's better to address them one by one.
A warm Ciao. For me to this discussion is very usefull

Hi Enzo,

that you don´t have a dominance relationship with your horse does not mean that there can´t be any rules whatsoever. One of the few rules I have with my horses is that they can´t graze on our walks unless I say it´s okay.

And if they decide to do it though and don´t stop when I kindly ask them to stop, I will even use pressure, like saying no or even flinging a rope or throwing a piece of wood (and then reward them for stopping of course).

I think that there are boundaries in every good friendship and I don´t see that as a problem. In my opinion that´s a rather gradual thing - a pressure trainer might also say that he is only enforcing rules. For me the way is not to throw all the rules out of the window, but to think about where I really believe that they are necessary and beneficial. And for me, suppressing one´s fear is clearly not such a case.



Oh, please do! You can also start a new topic if you want to, or post your questions into already existing topics. In that way other people who ask themselves similar questions may also find them even if they don´t read the introductions.

Warm Regards,
Romy

Hi Enzo:

Circe and I have been doing this exploring while hand walking, not while riding. (She's still young and I'm just starting to introduce her to having me on her back.)

And my suggestion would be to start this from the ground with Karexa, first, even though you two have done lots of riding together.

Part of the goal of this particular game is to give up as much control as you can force yourself to do! And I think that's much harder if we're sitting on them than if we're standing beside them. (I even had to physically let go of the lead rope for a while because my impatience was so strong and I'd get bored and want to do something else, and then I'd find myself dragging her around again.)

In terms of Karexa just stopping at a patch of grass and grazing for hours -- the first few times I did this with Circe, she stopped and grazed for quite a while. That's okay if that's what she wants to do!

This was great for both Circe and me when she was spending a lot of time grazing -- I had to let go of my instinct to go "DO!!!" something, and she got to be outside doing what she loves doing more than anything else...eating!

Romy has found a very sophisticated way, I think, to work through when grazing is okay and when it isn't for her horses, but at least to start, I wouldn't worry about it.

I discovered that Circe liked to graze, but she also got bored with it fairly quickly and wanted to do other things. And for the first several days we did this together, it was absolutely her decision about when she wanted to move on from that particular patch of grass. But, once she'd realized that she could eat when she wanted to, if I pointed out something else that looked like it might be interesting, she was very willing to go take a look at it. (When I did this, I would just point to it and talk about it -- if she was interested, we'd go look at it -- but I never made the decision for her.)

I guess my best advice to you is to experiment with Karexa! If she is really stall bound, the first couple of times you do this she may not want to go anywhere. That's okay! A lot of this is about learning to trust their speed and desires. I'm guessing that she will eventually decide it's worth going exploring if you're patient.

But, if nothing happens for several days and you feel stuck there, you might experiment with putting some hay down out side of her stall where she can see it and let her decide if she wants to walk and go eat it.

Why is it, do you think, that she doesn't want to be outside and would rather be in her box?
Is it fear? Is it her belief that she isn't going to have fun when she comes out? That being out means being worked with no play? Something else?

You and she will know and/or find the answers to this -- and how you approach this together should be about those answers, and how you can help her to see going out as pleasurable.

I don't think there is any one way to do this -- the only key, for me, is invite your horse to be the leader. This may take some time itself, too! Circe, my filly, was so relieved that I'd finally understood her desire to make decisions that she was happy to make them instantly. My other horse, Stardust, who comes from a difficult background and got taught not to have opinions, was less sure if it would be okay for him to take the lead, and it took us a while for him to trust that I really meant it. But he did finally believe me, and he began to open up in a way I never thought possible.

With your background in medicine, it might be really interesting for you to think of the first steps of this as a diagnostic tool for both of you first -- what happens when you step back from being in charge? What happens in her body, mind, and heart, and what happens in yours? You're doing the preliminary questioning about a case -- not jumping to conclusions about what it might be, not rushing in to provide treatment, but are listening to the patient and the symptoms as carefully as you can -- and in this case, you're both the patients!

This process is, for me, about exploring, not achieving, if that makes sense. It's not possible for a horse to make a mistake -- whatever she wants to do is the right thing, even if that is just going home at first (or staying at home). As you do it, if my experience is any indication, her interest in the world will continue to expand -- if it's her decision to explore it.

For me, this has been one of the most rewarding things I've learned to do with my horses, and also the hardest. It's not easy to keep myself from being the one making the decisions! And we don't always do everything that they want to do, now. But I have learned so much by continuing to work at this, and try to remember to make sure to spend time letting them decide for themselves every week. When I remember to do this regularly, they are much more willing to take my suggestions at other times.

Hope this is helpful!

All the best,
Leigh

_________________
"Ours is the portal of hope. Come as you are." -- Rumi
www.imaginalinstitute.com

Enzo, it's a "start over" sort of thing.

Imagine if you had a friend who you had bullied just a bit over the years, and you realized that this was not what you wanted in your relationship with her.

Wouldn't you set aside all the activities you'd bullied her into over the years, and ask for a fresh start?

I think for AND folks the key is play.

Look at activities such as "chase the Tiger." This is putting a plastic bag, usually, on the end of a whip (presuming you've not been driving her with a whip) and letting her look at it around her forefeet. (front hooves).

Wiggle it a little and see what she will do. Probably at first, just like a human you might have bullied, she'll not trust you and not know what you want.

If that is so, then you have to go further back to start.

You have to go to being with her and nothing else. Go sit in the paddock. Study, read a book. Recite poetry, sing your favorite songs. Just be there doing things without asking her to join you.

See what she wants to do. If it's paw the ground, then you paw the ground. If it's wave her head about, then you wave YOUR head about. If it's eat, then you eat.

In other words, let her set the tone, pick the activity and you follow.

It's not easy.

My stallion took nearly a year to break me of bullying him.

Please understand, I am not calling you a bully. But I certainly was one. And a very successful one. I made my living bullying horses and called it training. And for my time, the 50's and 60's (1948 to about 1968) I was a very kindly bully at that.



Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I actually take offense to this- I know it was not meatn that way, but don't tell me without unquestionable certainty that my horse is not happy with pressure. To him pressure means a puzzle- 'how do i release it?" and once he answers the puzzle he gets release and reward. To him pressure is not only a game but a way of earning cookies. Don't tell me he isn't okay with that!

And 'flooding' can be done in a huge throw it all at once way, or in tiny peices and gradually made larger as the horse accepts it (My preferred way, but in some cases I do find it best to throw it all in at once- but that is never a descision I take lightly.) and if someone thinks the horse is only learning to change his behavior and not his inner calm... Well it depends. Some horses , just like some people, have fears that will never go completely away. But if you can learn to not overly react and learn to control your emotions, you will benefit greatly- so will your horse. To me geting a horse roper broke is a safety issue. What if that horse gets caught in something. One day my husband's roping horse got caught in wire
from trying to get the greener grass on the other side of a dead electric fence. You know what she did? Nothing! She stood there.

And plenty of horses do reach an inner calm through progresive desensitization. THis is why Parellis have gone to great lengths to detail the difference between a introvert horse who only acts calm and a confident horse who IS calm.

ENZO, Your parelli can get you through this issue as well. Just like others pointed out with going out and exploring, if you would go to the Parelli Liberty and Horse Behavior course, the first week you spend every day "moseying" with your horse. Mosey is a slang word for walking along casually- like window shopping- you'r just stroling along looking. As part of this you lead your horse from zone 3 or 4- NOT 1 or 2. THis is so you can really see when your horse crosses a thresh hold. ( are you familiar with the thresh hold idea? For those who arn't, it is the place where your horse experiences the first slightest twinges of fear). You are to have a 51/49% relationship. This means you have 51% leadership- not 50% and not 52%. So if your mare stops to eat, "great idea! Let's rest." Wait for a minute, "Okay, now lets go again." If she wants to head back to the barn, "Great idea!" but go only twenty feet and then say, "Ohay, now let's go towards the scary direction again."

Once you mapped out an area on foot that she is comfortable with, try it undersaddle. Let her have her way 49% of the time wich should mean that in the end you can get at least 52% of the way to where you wanted to go because you are in charge 52% of the time. The next day you will get further (unless it is a bad day for whatever reason, which happens). As your idea seems less scary, then she may not drag you to the barn her 49% of the time, which allows you to get further in the other direction.

Now completely flooding would be to take her 300 feet away from the barn and her buddies, to tie her in the woods ad leave her there all day. It is not the easist way for them to learn, but my husband has done this already ad it can make a huge difference i a good way. If we have a horse that is extremely scared away from the pack, we try to put them in a paddock away from all other horses- where there are no other horses in sight or sound. We visit them very regularly thorugh out the day and make them as comfortable as possible. It is another version of flooding that we have had tremendous success with. Int he end the hroses are more confident as they learn to be more self reliant.

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Learning to put the relationship first.

While Donald's posts alone could keep me coming back to this forum, I could not disagreemore here. THis is exactly what I tried to do with my mare when I first came here. In two days I took a wonderful relationship and made her hate me. I lost all leadership and became someone whom she could not count on.

ENZO obviously has a great relationship with his horses. He does not need to change drastically. He can learn to soften maybe, or to use lighter phases for longer, or to incorporate more praise, or do more mirroring, or start target training. But he does NOT have to stat over.

In horse language he is leading, not bullying, and a flightly mare like his is going to find comfort in that leadership- not abuse.

Enzo, your posts sound so mcuh like my own thoughts when I first found the AND forum. Please do not change who you are, because your hrose's like you as you are. Keep improving, as we all must, but do not discredit what you have already accomplished.

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Learning to put the relationship first.

I've read the topic up to here and I don't think the pressure-response was directed against you personally, Danee. However, this forum really is about training horses without bit, without bridle, without the regular pressure-release system. So suggesting a method over here that boils down to 'Use more pressure untill the horse gives in', would be like suggesting 'Eat meat' when somebody asks how to avoid protein-deficiency on a vegetarian-forum.

Of course, 'eat meat' really is a good answer in itself. However, the question was asked on a veggie-forum in order to learn how you could deal with that problem in a veggie-way. Your answer would be really sound and probably helpful to many people when it would be posted on a traditional NH forum with a philosophy that matches that of your solution, but this forum was meant as a studygroup for methods other than those.
Everybody over here is free to use a bit, spurs, pressure or force when training their own horses at home, but we all come here in order to explore pressure-free methods. So yes, in a regular food forum 'Eat meat' would be a very sane and good reply, but when posting over here please keep in mind we're horse-vegetarians in search of a non-meat way!


@ Enzo: Teaching horses things through adding pressure when they do the wrong thing and taking that pressure away when he does the right thing, gives quick and reliable results for humans. However, I think the fact that the horse is then focusing on avoiding negative consequences, instead of focusing on experimenting with his own borders, expanding them and earning rewards because of it - has quite a big psychological impact.

When dealing with a scared horse, my own aim isn't to get his body to do the actions I want to see (stand still or walk along the scary plastic for instance), but instead to get his mind see the scary stuff as an interesting, 'fun scary' puzzle to solve.
I think chase the tiger will be a great help in that, because the first thing the horse learns from that, is the fact that the potentially scary thing (plastic bag or even a bare whip) is actually fleeing away from your horse - it's scared of your horse!
Especially more flighty horses love the fact that somebody else is doing the 'being scared' thing for a change, making them the powerful and scary, proud person for once who chases away the bad guys.
And if your horse is scared of chasing the tiger, then that's even better because it means that you can fight the fear right from the first moment: first choose a non-scary object to touch with the nose, like a target-stick or the end of a whip. Then hold for example a piece of cloth in your hand for her to touch. Then tie that to the end of the whip but hold it near to the cloth etc, etc.
Don't desensitise your horse with the tiger in order to beat her fear of it - instead start with a totally harmless tiger, and make if more fearful only if your horse can beat him. And most of all; have fun!

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New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

I have a saying Enzo:

'Be true to your horse and you will be true to yourself.'

I would never suggest to anyone to change yourself or not. That is not up to anyone but yourself to decide.

But what I can say to everyone in this world without the slightest regret:

Always follow what is in your heart.

The voice within brought your here. That does not mean you have to copy one of us (we do not even copy each other), but that you probably will find things here that will help you following that voice within.

I have found that with horses, and everything else for that matter, listening to the voice within is what counts.
Maybe you will not succes what you set out - now- but at least you feel good about yourself and your actions.
And that is worth everything in this world... I think

Warmest regards,

Josepha

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www.equusuniversalis.com

Oh yes...I shall tell you about Don Jamie, the ex bullfighter horse who no one could approach and barely looking at him from 2 meters away would make him run through a fence...

He is very much the reason why I am one of the 3 of AND.

I would like to share with you, if your are interested how Jamie and I found a way to interact in trust.
Let me know, if this interests you and I shall tell you a story which I have not told here before.

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www.equusuniversalis.com

That reminds me of me, actually.

I have never abused horses in my life, and Blacky and Sjors have never been the victim of cruel-force treatment by me either. Of course that's easy for me to say right now, because nowadays I don't use tack anymore to put them under pressure.

However, up to two years ago, I combined regular NH with traditional classical dressage ideas and made sure I was a good leader, both fun to be with (treats) and also a respected leader who did use pressure in order to prevent the ponies from ignoring me (cues with the reins or the whip), but did so in a predictable way; first give a small cue and only increasing that when it's not picked up by the horse. Resulting in that I only needed to use very small cues, most of them just visual signals and voice cues.

If I would have met AND back then, I would probably have kept using that philosophy while combining the methods over here to get new exercises in our repertoire. And I probably would have met a limit somewhere - not in the exercises that we could do, but in the simple fact that I would always need some sort of tack (whip, rope, halter) in order to get the ponies to keep performing. As soon as I would have left them away for more than three training sessions, the ponies would have started to ignore my cues. Moreover, I would probably always be the one initiating the exercises, developing new ones with the ponies following - not them inventing things on their own, as I would read over here in the diaries. Knowing me, I would have been hugely annoyed by the fact that other members over here apparently could work without tack all the time.

That would be the difference between embracing the exercises and methods to teach the horses, and embracing the philosophy of handling horses in a totally different way, from a totally new perspective on dominance, friendship, pressure and rewards.

I think that what is meant is not the difference between being a violent and abusive trainer, or a being gentle, positive friend for a horse - that would be a really unfair and lame comparison. It's about the difference, from being a good and thoughtful traditional trainer to a good and thoughtful positive friend, this shift makes for the horse.

For most people in the public there won't be a difference: horse A does piaffe at liberty, horse B does piaffe at liberty. But for the horses there is, because they know wether they have learned to piaffe by avoiding wrong answers, of by unconcerned exploring of new movements. Nobody will tell you that you can't reach the same results by using method A. But the latter, both the philosphy and how it works through in all our daily meetings with our horse, is what we try to explore over here.

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New horse book: Mandala horses!

Never stop making mistakes! Natural Dressage

Danee, I did not mean to offend, really! Only to state things from an AND perspective as I understand it, as this is, of course, the AND forum.

My understanding of it, is not only to explore ways to accomplish things with horses without pressure. It is to help the horse to be proud and self contained by using their ideas. It is to put the horse first. It is to explore the deeper meaning of the horse.

The line we all struggle with is where our wants begin and the horse's needs end. "Moseying" is a wonderful idea, and it is part of what I have learned at Paul Dufresne's clinics - but then we have to look at the intention of the human more closely. Where the intention dwells, the relationship hinges. For a sensitive horse, the trust also pivots on that fine edge. So one should look deeper than the act of training itself.

The focus is not to teach a horse not to be afraid of a tarp or a leaf blowing in the wind, with the end goal of being obedient to our wishes in any way. "Horse first" doesn't just mean that we take the bit out of the mouth, or the bridle off the head. It means a shift in the consciousness...tucking away the ego...and asking one's self not to want so much, and to explore where that leads us.

I still have extreme difficulty with this. Many of us do. I REALLY DO...and I am stuggling with this now, again. That part you quoted was a description of me. I consciously set about to increase Tamarack's ability to accept energy from me...and to most who watch me work with him, they see success and they see things going very well. But I am again at a point where I need to step back and explore my own motivation.

We desire to ride, we desire to teach the horse pretty movements...we desire, we desire, we desire. That is where the needs of the horse can get lost. It's a journey of exploration.

So Danee, I do not mean to imply that the methods you use are wrong. They are right for you and your journey is your own and is every bit as valuable as everyone else' journey. And I certainly do not mean to belittle your desire to reach out and help Enzo and to offer solutions when another is struggling. It comes from your heart. I know this.

But we can discuss methods that scratch the surface of our relationship with horses and perhaps solve a problem to our benefit, or we can discuss ways to peel off entire layers and get to know ourselves better in the process of understanding the horse better. For many, just coming to this forum and finding it intriguing, means they are searching for ways to begin to peel those layers away. And perhaps the universe brings them here to help each of us to question ourselves and look beyond what we already know.

And Donald, I am once again at that place you have posted about. Both my horses have said clearly that I was drifting away.

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"