The Art of Natural Dressage

Since introducing rearing, I can get him to really come up underneathe himself and raise his forehand during trot to halt through to backing up. But when we trot off again his butt pops up.

I do transitions VERY frequently but the butt still pops up. I've tried keeping my shoulders in the 'we are going to bakc up" position while asking him forwards. It does work, but he is so confused and I am afraid I'll lose his confidence big time as he already confuses backing and cantering with the rearing signal.

Any ideas?

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Learning to put the relationship first.

It's easy Danee! Don't quite halt. Trot forward, ask for halt, and trot him forward again just before he actually stops. Intersperse this with complete halts once in a while...until you see he's getting it.

What is happening in your case is that he's falling on the forehand as he comes forward. So for you it's simple. Blur the line a little. Forward to almost halt to forward. Keep your balance...if his forward is REALLY forward it can leave you behind the movement...but just do it enough that you can feel he's driving forward UP rather than forward DOWN.

Also, when you do have him halt, then back and transition immediately into trot. If he's still popping his haunches up (and therefore falling foward). see if you can do several back to trot transitions...basically ignoring the halt. Trot forward, cue to back up, when he begins to back cue to trot forward. Just a step or two of each.

Also, a roll back (a walking rollback) toward the wall, and transition to an immediate trot forward, will also help to keep the back end driving.

All of this should be done with composure. If your horse is losing it, walk through it all. Do it all at a walk (walk, almost halt, walk, or walk, back, walk, or walking rollback on the wall to a walk forward) until he's more sure of the cues and more sure of himself. Then you can work on the trot again.

All of these are done only a few steps for each gait. More than that and if they have a tendency to fall forward, they will. If they know you are going to change gait or direction (forward to back up) they will tend to stay on the hind end, because they need to.

The walking rollback (done slowly for the quality of the steps...you want them to step around, not pop up and jump around), is really cool. We did this when Paul was here. Actually we went from a walking rollback, into one step of half pass, into a canter depart. The depart get very soft and lovely. But the other benefit to a walking ANYTHING is that it's basically as difficult and muscle building as doing it in canter...with the added benefit of being able to keep the horse in a peaceful and calm state of mind.

But the transitions, specifically with only a few steps of each gait is the answer to encouraging him to remain weighted on the hind end.

Do you have the Walter Zettl dvds? He's a great teacher of these transitions. Only a few steps each.

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

There's also an old Vaquero trick if you have a horse that is transitioning to the trot by falling on his forhand (or the canter, for that matter).

Teach you horse good solid "whoa."

Then do your halts and back him up, and while backing, give the whoa command strongly ... " whoa! whoa! whoa!" until you feel him tuck under, than move him out to the trot, or canter. I'd not move him more than 10 to 15 feet, as this is a very heavy exercise that builds the haunches. Nor would I do it more than four or five times in a riding session, and not right on top of each other, but with other easy work between.

At least at first.

And yes, you are giving the whoa command as though he's not obeying you. It does not confuse. It just makes the horse work harder to "whoa." Whoa should already be a position that at least momentarily brings the hind legs under and drops the quarters.

If you think about it you are asking him to to whoa more than he's doing. In other words, putting himself in the whoa 'frame' more.

Which is of course, the thing you are seeking. Collection.

Let him anticipate it just a bit.

In other words, if he picks up on it after a few times, and starts to back with his rear end tucked under deeper than usual, don't give the whoa command. Unless you feel him dropping out of it, then give it, and as he drops in the rear, ask for the trot.

It's much more likely to carry forward for at least a few strides, and of course you know what to do then, eh? REWARD!!!!

Not only will it develop a much more fluid and energetic more even backing up, but it will build that strength needed for collect trot and canter.

One final caution. It will be tempting to work on backing speed. NO NONONO. Stay away from speed work while doing this. Speed in backing should be the last thing to teach a horse. Evenness is what counts, and proper lowered frame in the rear, with the forehand beginning to lift. You'll feel and see his shoulders come up. Watch for that and reward it no matter where he is in the exercise, or his progress, but, as Karen points out, I believe, this is what you are looking for in the trot ... not just the lowering of the haunches but the lifting of the shoulders. That gives the light part of collection.

And it's what gives that wonderful "uphill," smooth feeling the all gaits.

Including such things as Piaffe, and Passage.

We see time and again people doing those with little more than the hind end hopping, and the front legs and shoulders still not elevated. Very stiff and stilted looking.

My mare Haumea had that problem for a time. And I had no one to help me so feel back on the Vaquero lightening methods, and darned if they didn't work just fine. Better horseman than I were asking me how I moved her to that so quickly. Hehehehe. I didn't tell. No one then thought "vaqueros" were anything at all.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I had a long reasponse and lost it .
Anwyas, this is all from the ground- sorry I didn't specify that.

I have done a bazillion back to trot transitions thinking he will sort it out- he doesn't. And we usually only trot a few steps. and change things up constantly but the butt still pops up.

He is really sitting in the back up (and even halt) already so telling him to do so more is unnecesary.

I can get him to stay on his haunches if I REALLY mix signals, but he gets confused and he really has no ida what I am praising.

Karen did have a good idea with adding a walk pirouete, or walk in general even- slow things down. Maybe he is popping up because he just doesn't ahve the strength and know how to stay under. If we do a quick trot to backa nd then slowly walk forwards, only proceeding to trot when he stays under.... hm. I think I finally got it!!! Thanks


Also in his trot to back up he is great at the biomechanics of it, but gts stuck in the halt. I"m not sure if it is because he is thinking rear, in which case he would need to keep his hind feet still, or if it is becuse he is shifting so much weight (he really sits!) that he cannot physically pick them up until he rebalnces a little- not sure.

Also, I have done lots of the trot/almost walk/trot transitions from the saddl but not as much fromt he ground. Not enough to really be able to sit here and know what his mechanics are like anyways. I"l have to try it moe and pay more attension to it.

I have a game plan now (I think slowing it down will really help) but I'll certainly take more

Thanks guys!

_________________
Learning to put the relationship first.

If I were there answering your questions at this point I'd start looking at his symmetry. Is he one sided?

I think this figures in a lot of challenges such as this when everything else seems to be working, but just one thing in collection.

Of course that requires, if it is the problem, considerable circle work to stretch the tight side, and condition the weak stretched side.

In a horse with extreme symmetry problems both sides are weak, one from lack of work and the other from tension.

Look at vids or, or have someone watch, him on circles. Trot and canter.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

This is REALLY interesting Danee!! Tam does this in his piaffe attempts...he gets so far under, then he gets stuck. The same thing went through my mind...that he gets them to a certain point and then just can't physically lift them.

Report on what seems to work, ok? It will help others!

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

This same confusion for the horse used to be simply called, "balking."

The cure?

Develop more forward impulsion.

It is, as you describe it, a loss of energy. The point of balance is tricky, but we made, in equitation, hunter-jumper horses and even in western a great deal out of never teaching collection until we had and could easily call for strong forward movement, impulsion.

Storing up energy, by coming under, has to have somewhere to go, or it will dissipate downward.

I think folks these days are much too concerned about putting weight on the forehand at all, when to build impulsion that is exactly what the horse does at liberty.

A truly athleticized horse needs the full range of his extension and collection explored.

I think if we studied the bio mechanics of collection but noted too, where it comes from, impulsion would be answer.

The only bad fall I ever took from a horse was when I had failed to account for the horse's lack of impulsion (I'd not ridden it much) and attempted too small a circle, and lost impulsion. She reared, and went over into a fence, on my back. Big ouch.

But a good lesson. I knew that I'd lost impulsion. And I knew then that I'd never really trained for it before attempting too much collection, which is why I was circling so small.

Forwards energy becomes upwards energy, only when you have the former.

Vladimir Littauer discussed this in his books. And the subject was hunter jumper training.

But if you look at a horse jumping, including the approach, it becomes pretty obvious that the jump, an upward thrust, is built on forward impulsion redirected.

The masters, like Littauer, knew what they were talking about and much of their work is not outdated, simply expanded upon. Impulsion is a basic concept. The horse owns the body, and we call upon it for impulsion or suppress it to our loss and possible risk.

Where Littauer fails me is in his devotion to forward movement over collection as we wish to use it. But his principles of impulsion still stand for me as a good example of what I am attempting to say.

The stuckness could be a result of not training and conditioning for impulsion enough at first. And stuckness calls for going back to basics.

In the sense of energy use and conservation impulsion and collection are, or most certainly should be, the same thing, extended or contracted: Energy.

Do you not, when you are riding, or even with your horse in hand, see that loss of energy when he no longer can raise the forehand and seems stuck?

Your horses probably try hard for you (a nice by product, or is it the sought after effect of AND methods) so it might be a little harder to detect than those using pressure release methods as I did for years.

My own personal view from experience is that there should be, on average (every horse is different) at least 90 percent forward work to 10 collected. Rather on the model the horse himself or herself shows us totally at liberty. We just notice the collection more.

Donald, a pedantic old crock, eh?

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Well, of course Sort of. I don't really see it as an impulsion issue but rather a lack of strength/balancing issue. (not that he couldn't use more forewardness in his work too, but lets not get too picky here )

I do feel it is mostly physical that when he shifts SO MUCH weight back he simply connot lift his feet until he rebalances some of that weight to his forehand. I am thrilled that he is shifting that much weight back even if he does get stuck. At least I know he is continuously working on it and as he gets stronger he will be able to sink further and further and still lift his legs.

My plan for now is slower tranisions most of the time- and a few quicker ones thrown in just to test and maybe to remind him what we are shooting for. I am also continuing to play with rearing regularly to strengthen him. He is much less enthused about rearing now that w do o much of it, but that is okay to me since he is now less likely to offer it when he shouldn't. He never refuses, he just isn't offering as often, isn't rearing as high and isn't as impulsive- and i don't se any of those as being negative.

Karen, I do wonder if allowing the piaffe to be more foreward would show him so doesn't have to sit SOOO much??? Just like slowing the transition with Rave- making it easier, seems to keep him from popping his butt. He isn't as collected to begin with but he seems to maintain it better.

Better footing sure would help this process!!!!

_________________
Learning to put the relationship first.

Donald, just in case that is a problem with Tam (well, someone told me it probably was...I was doing too much collected work, not enough forward work, and the horses do need the balance between the two!) I AM doing a lot more forward work with him and he just (very happily) found his forward/down neck stretching trot...COOL! But in doing a nice forward trot, to a near halt, to forward trot again, he's doing it easier and easier with more impulsion.

Danee, I am doing very much with Tam's piaffe what you are doing with your halt/trot transitions...slow it downa nd move it forward to keep Tam from getting stuck, but still also trying it from a standstill to see where he's at occasionally!

I can report on that...he still gets stuck.

But I think he will find his own happy medium in there somewhere. When he's well under himself, he is in a good classical piaffe position...but he still doesn't know he can bend his hind legs and still lift them, or perhaps he isn't strong enough. Either way, I don't want to discourage him from getting in that extremely-under-himself position, but knowing he's not ready to do anything with it yet, we can work on the footwork by keeping him moving it forward. We still revisit the more extreme position from time to time so he doesn't forget it.

I think he may not be rounding enough in that position...that might be the key. It's deceptive really, because he's absolutely, postively uphill, but I don't think he's really using his back as he should (eventually) be able to. The more forward/low work that Tam is doing right now is in fact helping him learn to round up his back (more appropriately for his age...it's a bit deceptive when a horse is almost born collected) and release the tension in the topline (Paul had to help me with that one...remembering what the long/low does for a horse) and at the same time help him with being able to extend his reach (and agility) with his hind legs by being more on his forehand for now. If he's always on his haunches, the hind legs get strong, but they don't get as agile and they should...if that makes any sense at all? So it should all come together at some point.

It's kind of cool that the rearing is more controlled, and lower. I'm actually encouraging that with both Tam and Cisco, as I am thinking there is a definite tie in and gymnastic benefit to learning a levade...a real one. Where they actually sit into it with the haunches while the front end lifts only slighty. Slow and controlled.

So with both Cisco and Tam, I'm presently rewarding them for setting up for a rear (well, Tam never really has got off the ground more then a few inches), but before they actually lift off with the front end. In this way, I'm hoping that both will learn to set up while holding ramener rather than throwing their heads up to help lift.

But you know...you do a little of this, play with a little of that, and somewhere down the path, things fall into place like magic.

On the slower departs, is the butt staying down? Yes, I think you'll just see it a melt together at some point. Cool!

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

Karen, forty years ago I was having similar conversations with other horsepeople. Sometimes my adult students, sometimes my own employees (instructors), sometimes with judges.

Oddly enough it was the other way around mostly.

You see, I was arguing "range."

From my very earliest work with uncomplicated stock horse work, I felt that "range," was everything.

A horse had to go from flat out galloping to sudden stops and turns while working cattle and it made them very fit. We called it "handy."

And it meant precisely what I just described.

A cowpony could work a cow in a pen, or on the range, at closeup, nose to now, eyeball to eyeball, and dodge and turn to cut her off, drive her if need be, but could also take off at a gallop after her if she "broke" from the herd or from being held, and turn her back.

This means to me that the horse had to be collected, and also readily on the forehand at a full gallop.

When I went to racing stables exercising and eventually to training it bothered me how little "collected" work those 'babies,' two and three year olds, were asked to do. Instead we pounded their front ends into the ground.

I rebelled a bit. And worked colt and fillies in transition work, and even circle work. It's why, because my horses were running well against the stopwatch, and NOT coming up lame, that I got asked to be an asst. trainer.

I still have the same, possibly outmoded view, that neither collection or work on the forehand is the right answer for the horse and various problems he might have in movement and responsiveness and capacity. It is both as a single package.

I cannot harm my horse if I do this.

Whereas I can, if I focus too much on either extreme.

For me it boils down to this:

I should always, in every session with a horse, (just as he shows us at liberty) do both extended and collected work within the limitations of his current conditioning.

I feel the same about circle work. That because a horse is stiff on one side, and flaccid on the other, I should NOT concentrate on circling only one way to correct it. I must do both.

I must do both in collected and extended work, every time I work with the horse.

Sheees, I must read like such a pedant.

Donald

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

No, you read like someone who knows what they're talking about and wants to share that knowledge. I love that, and I appreciate that very much.

I never really seem to learn anything until it's my time to learn it. That is, when the problem presents itself, then I deal with it. I have never been very good at planning ahead, and well, in horsework, I don't have enough experience to plan ahead!

So when Paul first told me that I might be doing too much collected work with Tam, I wasn't sure what he meant, really...at least not in a way that made me ask "how do I fix it"? I think, in part, because it was still early days and I wasn't sure I needed to fix anything. I wasn't riding much. Extended work is so much easier for an aging person like me to do under saddle. In hand, I can't run enough!

It wasn't until this last clinic when Paul could really see Tam and I work, could he tell me specifically what I should do, and how I should do it, and I was int eh right place to begin to understand the importance of it. Still, had to ask him, as recently as the day before yesterday, why long and low was good for a horse.

At the moment I am open to a suggestion, then the same suggestion tends to flood in from various places around me. A friend, this forum...you! It all helps to cement it in my mind.

A little of this, a little of that. Then it all comes together correctly in the end.

I was talking to a new, soon to be friend today. Who has been on a similar path as I have (enough that I'm sure we could talk for hours and hours!), and I marvelled at how, once I was open to the idea of my path with horses taking a different route, how all the information I needed, all the support I needed, all the possibilities I needed, all started falling into place like a magic jigsaw puzzle.

It's still raining puzzle peices. Amazing things form from it.

You are a part of that puzzle, and I adore you for that!

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear!"

Yup, been there!!!

It is such a shame that I cannot do much forward work becaue of our crappy footing right now, but yes I agree about balancing it all. as far as something being bad on one side- I have already had students practice something ONLY the good way for a week or two just so they could really get into there mind what it felt like when it was right. It also gave them time to forget the troubles they had teh 'bad' way. Then I would have them reherse the good way mentally a few times. Than I asked them to transpose it- in there mind only- until they could ride it well the other way menatlly, based off what teh good way feels like. Than I had them ride it in reality. It really works like magic when a rider is struggling with a concept one direction only.

So yeah, practicing just the bad way isn't going to fix anything.

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Learning to put the relationship first.