The Art of Natural Dressage

Working with the Horse's Initiative
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:51 pm
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Location: Netherlands
danee wrote:
Most of the other horses I work are comfortable with the pressure and release but appreciate the rewards that I have been giving more and more often.


Sounds like you're doing great. What is the Mustang like? And what is the address of your website? Because I'd love to read more about the Midwest Mustang Challenge.

About horses feeling comfortable with pressure and release: that is how we have been breeding them for centuries. We have bred horses that can cope with pressure/release training systems as that has been the system that has been used the past milennia. So most horses work very well in that and are calm and responsive when trained like that. If that's the training goal (for example when you train for competitions, of horses that are to be used by others) and you use the pressure in a sensitive way, then there is no reason why you wouldn't succeed with the bulk of the horses. The only reason why AND has left that system of applying and releasing pressure as teaching tool, is because a lot of horses won't just become calm and responsive through such a system, but also realise that the only way to prevent being corrected with pressure is by stop taking initiative. That is why well-trained classical dressage horses need reins and a whip in order to be taught manouvres like piaffe and the haute ecole jump: he has learned to avoid pressure and the attention from the trainer that is attached to it, by not takin initiative: whenever the trainer wants something more in movement or speed or energy, then the trainer himself must 'make' the horse do these movements by adding more pressure untill the horse stops the old behavior that he was trained to do up untill now and in search of release of the (mental) pressure up the behavior towards a new level.

So I agree with you that horses are all different and that they demand different things from the trainer, and also that some horses need a wiser friend, while others need a playmate. And nobody will be able to follow one method to the letter: everybody will mix experiences, methods and lessons together into a personal mixture that you can succesfully train your horses with. And rewards will add a lot to a pressure-release-based system for the horse. But the horse will unconsciously learn different things when trained by a reward-no-reward based system than when he is trained in a pressure-release system. It both works, and it both suits different goals, but there is a difference for the horse.

And for the rest I totally agree with Josepha: taking your own experiences and mixing them with lessons you learn from others and most of all your horse, is what AND is all about! 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:01 pm
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Location: Quebec, Canada
You are so right Danee:

I for one wouldn't be where I am today if it weren't for PNH. The horse first. And of course, we have to have a horse that is compatible to our personality. I stopped PNH because I am not the type to do phase 4. I feel real bad after. So I wouldn't be happy with a dominant horse who steps all over me. However, I do have a horse that is very nervous and learns quite well by repetition (patience) and no phase 3-4. So in my opinion, I have the perfect horse for my personality.
Jocelyne


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:20 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:57 pm
Posts: 146
Having just read this post, you have spoken words I have been struggling with for so long Danee. I realised only yesterday that I don't need to give up PHN or any other system to do AND as the both can work together, after all my idea of PNH seems to differ so greatly from many others, I figured I must already be doing some AND style stuff in there anyway. My horses are happy, I am happy refining techniques and if I end up dropping PNH that is great, and if I don't that is great also as I can still use what I have learnt in my interactions with my horses. As long as they are happy with me then I must be doing somehting right. I am glad I am not the only one who has been struggling with this. Thank you for writing about it. xxx :love:


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:36 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:59 pm
Posts: 20
Location: Costa Rica.
What a great thread. Loved reading it.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:01 pm
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Location: Quebec, Canada
Since I've dropped Parelli many years ago and now practicing clicker training, I've decided to start the Levels 1 & 2 over again but using positive reinforcement instead of the phases (or at least not using phase 2-3-4). I know it will work since I've already taught Magik to back-up using the target and moving his fronts my mimicry. So I'm on a new journey. Can't wait!

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Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:59 am 
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 2:40 pm
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Location: Belgium
Why aren't you moving on with the Gymnasium exercises? You did Marijke's course did you not?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:01 pm
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Location: Quebec, Canada
Well Hello Ms Josepha. Hope all is well with you.

For the last year, I really stopped all types of training with Magik and Dream. I was preparing for my retirement, so basically I was only cleaning out the barn and spending just friendly time with them, not asking anything of them. But since I'm now retired, I would love to teach them new things and since I've started c.t. again, I've noticed that they are so much happier. As to why I'm not practicing the exercises, well I've come to realize that this is too complicated (teaching dressage and certain exercises) for me and since I'm alone here (working at liberty and not using the traditional method to train), I can only learn by internet and I find it hard. I'm not saying that I won't practice certain exercices but I don't want to use the cavesson or any other tool. I want them to do the exercises on their own or with my help (using my hands to place certain parts of their body to guide them).

I did however love taking the lessons with you and I'm not saying I won't take more. However, I need to find someone who will film me or try to find a way to place my camera (iphone or ipad) so it will film.

I do like the Parelli program (they do have alot of imagination), it's the method of teaching I don't agree. So now I'm just teaching to move their front and hind by using the target and mimicry and Magik is having fun (he follows me all the time when I have the target in my hand).

P.S. I do check your videos once in awhile and your FB page. I will recommend you to all those interested in learning a gentle way to exercise their horse. I have learnt so much from you.

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Jocelyne
[Hug your animals everyday. You never know!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:00 pm 
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Hello Ms. Jocelyn, :)

:) I was just interested, that is all. How nice that you have all the time you want now to be with your guys.

Thank you for your reference and kind regards,

Josepha

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:00 pm
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Location: Belgium/Tielt-Winge
very interesting to hear this Jocelyne!
we mix everything up nowadays, I try doing the gymnastic exercises which I learn with a cavesson from my teacher and then I try to do them without any tack or try doing them with the cavesson and my hand on the reins but trying not to use it, which is for me an interesting exercise as well...
today I came past a treestump and suddenly it reminded me of the parelli exercise of stepping backwards up on things, the great thing was that Beau used to know the exercise and did it, but always with a lot of tension because he was worried about the consequences... either of hitting something with his feet or getting higher phases...
So I decided to do it with positive training, like I did with my dog, he goes backwards up onto anything nowadays, after only a short time he got it and was really relaxed about the whole thing. It makes me happy that I can do some of the exercises Parelli teach but this time without any pressure
I just don't want to get my levels because I don't like some of the exercises, like riding around with the tail of your horse over your shoulder and some other things (but maybe they are already out of the program again, I don't know anymore)

I will need to reread your diary ;)
Big hug
Barbara

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