The Art of Natural Dressage

No, I didn't mean that way. That we arent' growing, but what I do see is balance no true collection, yet. I do mean yet. I haven't seen horses sit back on their hunches., yet. what I do see is more and more balance, which isn't a bad thing. Balance has to come first. But there is something missing, at least that's what I feel. I do know collection takes time and to have our horses lift there chest is not an easy task, but I think we're missing something.

When I watch my horses play, they will lift their chest and shoulders and hold much longer than 2 steps or 4 steps and will continue to go back to collection while playing. What is it that I'm missing? What is it that my body needs to do to get the same response?

I understand that collection is a process it isn't something that just happens for many of us. This is what I'm meaning by no exit.

We are all on a journey an lucky for all of us, if we can keep talking through it and expressing our thoughts, I truly believe we will find the way.

April

_________________
Horse's idea becomes your Idea...

April

Collection is when the hind quarters are taking up the weight. The front becomes light. Anything else, would have to be considered balanced. Am I wrong?

If that's not what we are trying to achieve then I guess we need to come up with a different word for it.

But collection is what it is, right? We just can't redifine this word to suit us, but we can define training suit us or come up with a different word so we are all on the same page. And right now, what I see is a lot of horses with balance. Again, not a bad word, this is great because without balance we won't be able to achieve collection.

April

_________________
Horse's idea becomes your Idea...

April

Well then, I guess I won't have to throw out 'collection' after all.

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Collection does happen naturally for short periods of time, even if the hind end is weak but is possible. To me collection is where the hind end is lower than the forehand and the forehand is light, the back engaged, no hollowness, stomach engaged, hind legs flexing at hocks, not necessarily stepping to far under as that would put the horse out of balance. So collection takes time to get and others depending on circumstances can be instant.

Collection is also balance the horse is light in it's movement effortless. The nose can be infront of the vertical far preferable than being behind But the shoulders are higher than the croup cos the hind quarters have taken the weight and come under themselves, it is possible for the horse to be like this for a long time, if and when trained up to doing it.

I have experienced it on my gal but in the form of a levade, sat on her in one of her strops awhile ago, she does it nicely But she has done it with me on the ground still training a cue to it and she really does sit on her quarters and they are under her, not for long but long enough. But I also know she does a good impression of collection, where her head is up and hind end stepping under, but if you look a little closer it is possible to see a hollow back, legs trailing and her weight is still on the forehand

By a horse lowering its hind end and bringing it underneath them correctly it does lighten and let the forehand rise and in turn so does the neck and head, so where you a horse currently has it's headset will be the right place even so it may look low, as long as the poll is the highest then when the horse has gained the ability to collect ( ok they have it but for us to utilize it )when the shoulders raise form the hind end engaged then the neck and poll will look higher than before.

Anyway a site that some may find interesting http://www.philippekarl.com/24.html

I know a dressage instructor and she doesn't have the horses trained in a collection for 30 mins. There would be a warm-up and then within the hour lesson, the collection is only 10-15 min long. There are a lot of breaks. There is a lot of stretching that is being done. But, what she does is work from front to back, the reins...which isn't the route that I want to go.

April

_________________
Horse's idea becomes your Idea...

April

Dear April,

Thank you for you definition and explanation of collection.

I dare say though, I know what collection is in theory, rest assured.
After over 10 years of studying all old and new masters of the Classical Riding Art, one has a clear theoretic view, really.
I explain it to people every day, in my lessons, on my websites, in articles for magazines, in clinics, readings etc.

So for me; the theory, there can be no mistake about.

It is the practical collection were opinions seem to differ over and over.
And that is what I wanted to conclude here.
The image of what we think is collection.

The theory one can find through out the whole forum... for one.
__________

You say you are missing something, well, aren't we always missing something?
That is called learning and I am afraid you will probably have that feeling untill your last day.
For everytime we find a piece of the puzzle, a new piece gets missing. It never ends

You say your horses collect freely, well then there you have it, they collect when they want to.
So you must make them proud, for proud horses collect (and can present you with other problems as I now know ).

When you ride, of course collection becomes much more difficult for balance is lost.
And balance is key to collection.
But of course you know that.
So it isn't about what you are missing, it is about the time and the right training you and your horse need in order to find the right balance and muscle power for collection.
The old masters have the answers for you.

Regards,

Josepha

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com

About collection and shifting the weight back, there's an extremely interesting book out since a year of Philippe Karl (Die Irrwege des moderne dressur (or zomething like that ), The faults of modern dressage).

He explains that collection isn't about shifting all the bodyweight to the back - as that just doesn't happen in passage and all the collected forwards movement. The only weight that is shifted back (with luck) is half of the weight of the rider, which means that the horse is back in his natural equilibrium. The exception of course is the levade and all the airs in which the horse really stands on the hindlegs, but whenever he goes forwards, the frontlegs do carry and even provide a lot of the lift and spring of the shoulders. The passage would be even an extremely uncollected movement if you would take the sifting of the bodyweight as main component: in passage the horse actually lengthens his fram, and stretches his hindlegs further out behind the body than in any other collected exercise. Also, a lot of collected movements get collected because the horse actively uses the hindlegs to propel his body forwards, and the frontlegs as brakes, directing that power upwards. That is for example visible in collected trot and passage - the forelegs act as break with every step they take, which means that they actually carry more bodyweight.

His discovery is that collection isn't that much about shifting weight (only partly), but that it's much more about creating static muscletension all over the body. It's like a human sprinter who crounches up for the take-off. He doesn't do that to shift his weight to the front of the back of his feet - he does that to put all his muscles under slight tension, in order to be able to explode in forwards movements after that.

I always used to think too that collection was about shifting the bodyweight, but now I see that that isn't reality: it's about the right use of muscletension which redirects the horses body upwards instead of forewards. The mosles are contracted more - resulting in that lowering of the hindquarters - and extend more, acting like springs - the shoulder muscles in the frontquarters. You'll see that in a landing fase of the passage the horse only looks uphill because his hindquarters aredown even further, but when you really compare that landing fase with a picture of the normal standing horse, you'll see that the frontquarters actually also are lower than normal. The entire horse sags down, coiling those muscles to the extreme, in order to then jump up again with more extreme bodylift than normal.

So collection in movement I feel isn't about shifting weight to the back, or making the front higher - because that only happens in tiny parts of every single walk-fase. It really is about muscles starting to do more and more work as springs, and by that relieving the spine of the function of shock-breaker. And because it really is about all those muscles - frontquarters and hindquarter - that's also why stretching exercises are so good, just as moving balanced. Because that means that your horse is balancing out tensions that keep his muscles from working in the right way.

So I agree with you in that there is a lot of balance restored over here, but not that there isn't any beginning of collection going on. Because I see that in pictures - and I don't know what's going on at home so I'll not judge others on what I just assume.

very interesting Miriam! It sounds like what Pilates is for humans. Karen also practices it I recall? I'm back into serious Pilates again and this picture makes me think about what Miriam says:



Maybe we can develop Pilates for horses?

_________________

I think AND already is pilates for horses and yoga and fitness and ballet and meditation and 'feel good' therapy

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com

Ofcourse but AND uses a lot of already known exercises. maybe there are more possibilities of excersises to build certain muscles?

_________________

I am all ears to that!

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com

For example stretching out a hind leg and lift it? Would this be of use? I have see horses stretch this way and it will train the 'buttmuscles' even if it's a slight movement of centimeters ??!!

_________________

like a kick you mean?

_________________
www.equusuniversalis.com

No stretching the leg backward with the hoove on the ground and than lift it a few cm off the ground.

_________________

Sjors does that too after having slept standing up for a while. I don't know if there are any exercises that train only one musle? I'm not sure if that would help a lot either, as most of the time the problem is more that a whole area is underdeveloped/developed in the wrong direction.

I do know that there are stretches that focus on one specific muslegroup though. Maybe that would do more? Because a muscle that can stretch further, can also contract better.