The Art of Natural Dressage

I've seen all parelli dvd's exept success series. Like every educational program there is good and bad things about parelli.
I personally have gotted much understanding about horses behaviour and body language by watchin parelli. Those have also teached me how to use pressure and how not to use it (not always on same way that parellis are showing those)
I do not like bits and spurs and sometimes they just use too much pressure and obviously make horses to do their bidding. There is still alot good when listeting Lindas lectures. I think that they want more and more use lesser pressure and develop system more on 'horse wants' way. Anyway there is conflict between what they say and what they do.

Another problem is their huge commercial way. They make money, alot of money. Thousands and thousands of people are listening every word they say and take it literally. They cannot throw bit away because 90% of their fans and customers dropped the program on that same spot. Of course they would propably live very nice life afterwards and not have to worry about income but it takes a really big man to step forward and to do such action.

Liberty box is good and prolly best box they have (level 2 is ok too, alot of same things on those). But liberty box is way too expensive in my opinion. If they would cut price alot and start selling those on more countries I believe more and more horses would have atleast little better lives after people start developing atleast some degree of understanding about horses emotions.

I say that watch everything you can from every trainer you can and take what feels right for you and your horse. Your horse will tell you if you are on right path or no.

You are so right Marko. I was a firm believer for 3 years (about). I bought everything new even if I thought it was expensive. When I attended a clinic and saw a 3-star instructor, in my opinion, abuse a friend's horse and convinced the owner the horse needed that, I quit!! They even told me that I was not a leader with my horse and that was my problem. but I have really looked at every DVD received and all the packs I had and never did I see LInda (or Pat for that matter) force a horse to do something the way this guy did. He probably won't say it was force but what do you call having someone swing a savvy string attached to a carrot stick hard on the ground when the horse passed the open door so he wouldn't leave by the door. I call that forcing the horse not to go through or a heck of alot of pressure. Anyways, I still practice Parelli but on my own terms. I've stopped using the halter (I just learnt that the knots are made so they touch nerves on the horse's face if tightened). Now I use my leather halter at all times. I will put pressure but no longer phase 3-4.

And like you wrote, the Liberty pack is a must to have if you want to know about different horsenalities. And what is interesting about the whole concept is the variety of things you can teach your horse.

I had cancelled my membership but I am considering registering again. I miss all the DVD's I was receiving and the magazines. Now I know I can take what I like and leave behind what I don't. I'm starting to understand my horses alot more just be being with them and now.

But I will NEVER, EVER attend or assist another clinic. Cowboys will remain cowboys. I think Pat probably changed his ways somewhat because Linda seems to have alot of incluence on him and doesn't have that cowboy personality in her.

Anyways, bottom line, you're right, there is good and bad in everything, we must take what is best suited for us and move on.
Jocelyne

That's what I did also, but now I have renewed my membership. I missed all the info too. I feel so stupid that I sold my Parelli Level 1 & 2. I now know, (like you mentioned) that "I can take what I like and leave behind what I don't". There was a lot of good information that I could take from the dvds. We have now ordered the Liberty & Horse Behavior DVDs and I can't wait to see them!




Exactly how I feel! I will never participate in another clinic again. (Unless of course it is from someone that does AND! )

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God Bless!
Brittany

www.royalhorsecompany.com

You have said it all...
Exactly what I think about it!

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I wish I knew your world

Oh Dear! I've just started my big Mule Malaga (Used to be "Mad Malaga" but now "Just Malaga" thanks to Parelli)on level 1 and he's due to go to his first Clinic with an instructor next week!
Still I know you can't bully a mule into anything

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God created all equines equal,He just trimmed the ears on the Dumb ones :0)

It is an axiom that we effect those around us even when we mean not to, or are not conscious of doing so.

It's a deeply embedded survival instinct tool. We read, and are read, by not only humans, but of course horses.

That said, my point is that if you wish to understand how you effect others, and they you (thinking about horses, of course) studying those formerly unnoticed 'signals' is very important.

So why do I dislike Parelli? Anything that distracts from the study of those signals annoys me.

Why do I like Parelli, Pat in particular? I've watch a great many people work with horses. And learned very young, to look for exactly that ... signals not usually noticed.

And Pat Parelli has a set of them that appears to surpass anyone else I've watched.

If for no other reason than the study, under a microscope of attention, Pat Parelli around horses, had I the money, I'd buy every vid and attend as many demos as I could afford, just to capture his extensive set of signals.

We know that many can read horses well. We know that many can 'speak' to the horse, very well. But we have a sample in Parelli that is exceptional.

If you can use it, why not?

Not only will he show you what you do not want to use the way he uses it, but you will still have it, if you've identified it, to use the way YOU wish to use it, in and AND way.

I do not have to use a tool the same way someone else does.

If you haven't done it, try standing in your horse's paddock, long enough for him or her to become bored with you ... very very still, then, move one foot slightly right or left, and watch your horse.

Or cock one knee slightly out, or lift your arm to move an elbow slightly out.

Or tip your head back so your hat brim no longer shades your eyes, and you will see what Pat is doing ... though of course he knows when to apply what to produce what effect.

He didn't just learn from others. He learned from himself.

Rather in the same way we AND'rs speak of learning from the horse.

He watched how horses responded to him, and likely experimented a great deal.

The loud boisterousness is cover up. Not that he mean necessarily to hide anything, but that it's a habit.

Likely because just like other folks, when he was learning, he was shy about people seeing him screw up.

I don't like his goals, just as most here do not.

At time's I don't like how he puts on pressure.

But I'd have to talk to him and ask questions to gain an understanding of his intent, and hear his argument about why he has the goals he does (I can learn from even those I deeply disagree with).

In the end, he has more skills and raw knowledge than most of us could absorb in a lifetime.

Oddly, with all his ego bellowing behavior, he is extraordinarily modest. He actually doesn't do much boasting about training of horses.

Though he certainly boasts about ownership of horses and things.

You can see the other side of him when he's out with horses at liberty in the paddocks and pastures. Especially with mares and their foals. Showmanship? Maybe. Maybe not.

With respect,

Donald Redux

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Love is Trust, trust is All
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So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I totally agree with you Marko.

I have most of the video's of Parelli. The horse behaviour dvd's I like the most. Just watching the horses.

Someone told me once, you should not remember what you dislike in a method. Remember what you like. And you will always find something you like in each method.

And of course learn from it ...

Please don't get me wrong. I do love Pat and Linda and do love the information they are providing, in writing. However, there are too many people involved now. I believe every instructor is doing their own thing (even though they have to stay updated and follow courses at the Parelli Centres a couple of times a year.) I am quite sure that this instructor would never do what he did in front of Pat Parelli.

And if Pat didn't have the camera on him all the time, I'm sure we wouldn't see the things we do (sitting on the ground while doing phase 4 to a horse that supposedly had never been done this before).

But going back to the subject of the Horse Behavior & Liberty Kit, it is a must. And for those going to see clinics with Pat and Linda, I urge you to go. It's awesome and it's worth the trip. What I was talking about (writing about) are clinics that are set up by instructors at $200 a day.

I didn't get that you didn't care for Pat and Linda.

But it did help me understand better you issues with 'Parelli' when you clarified above. Thank you for that.

I ranted in a way that could have easily been construed as criticism, when I meant it to be encouragement to continue to study Pat, and of course, Linda, though I didn't mention her.

No, fact is, I admire them both. We don't 'hate' or reject the old master's of Dressage whose work has since been surpassed, and in fact, we study them for many reasons.

I meant what I said about Pat in that light.

Though I've only studied videos, I find I like Pat very much. His background, even where he lived and traveled is much the same as I. Only I think about 20 years before.

I recognized the show ring he got dumped in riding a green horse without bridle. It was on the Sac State fair grounds, where I showed and rode.

I spent half of my summer vacations right were he did his Mule Days celebrations, Bishop CA, below the mountain I climbed many times.

He mentions people I studied 40 years ago that were horse trainers and teachers.

Did you know that in fact 'chase the Tiger,' could be said to have originated with Tom Dorrance, only it was, "use the Tiger to chase the horse," to get horses to move with more energy in turns, etc.?

No, I don't really 'hate' Pat. Just using a little hyperbole to make my point in a way that could be said about almost anyone, even those I have great respect and a liking for, as I do him.

He and I even have the same regional accent. He's a Bay Area kid, for sure.

(That's the San Francisco Bay area).

With a little Central Valley (San Juaquin Valley) thrown in.

About the only way we are much different is he's Italian and I'm not.



And though I'm more low key, I have a serious arrogant streak I express more subtly.

You remember my stories about doing work on top of horses with no bridle, right? You don't think I did those without the audience in mind at the time, so you?

Such an arrogant kid. But then, I was rather good.

Donald Redux

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

so funny that you are talking about Parelli,I have a view clients which are doing Parelli and had a view discussions with them about it.
Mine biggest peeve is the commercializing, plus that you have to buy his tack to make it a success in his words.

But over all his detailed explanation can help people to be better horse people.




from horsefever:

Hmm I am not so sure, I watched the level one I am not sure from which series, I got the cd's from a client.
I saw a student under the watch from linda, I guess doing the jo jo game and the horse didn't want to go back. The horse got the lead rope jank in his face you just could hear the clunk, when it hit the jaw.That was with heavy fastener.

My husband was pretty distinguishing when he saw it and said " Does this man really makes money with abusing horses?!"

I might go to a show from them ( free ticket ) to see them in person. To make up my mind what I should think about it.
Mostly i have, he doesn't have all the answers as well
That why I think you can learn from other but i guess
it wouldn't be so good for him to admit that...

I didn't make up mind yet since my free time is getting smaller and smaller and i don't want to waste it.

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Kind regards
Christina
http://www.horsepro.net

That is one of the reasons why Parelli is not good. They are too focused to getting results. They are show people afterall.
In like every trainer we should learn to watch and listen 'what we need', take what suits us and maybe modify it.
I example never use ropes with metal on the end. I tie rope on the halter, this is just because I do not feel comfortable hitting my horses chin with metal. Also you do not need to use phases literally as they describe, modify them to your needs.

Not many people can start doing like hempfling,and,nhe styles right from the begingin so I think that modified parelli training gives them ok start. They still should use common sense while doing parelli.

Hi Marko (and welcome),

Would you please read the rules of this forum?

Thank you,

Josepha (who is at horse expo Gent)

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www.equusuniversalis.com

Im sorry. I've read the rules and this is just my fault because im not so perfect in english yet. Always when talking im trying to say my opinions and not say that they are facts. Sometimes I write too 'short' sentences which give kind of agressive picture for my postings(what I do not want). This is not what I ment. Proper phrasing would be like 'thats why I do not like everything about parelli program'.

Having just started on level 1 I know the DVD you are refereing to and I also was a bit startled at the amount of pressure put on that horse (Having watched the Level 2 DVD's I now see Linda was using Level2 pressure)
However having watched that particular sequence three or four times I understand what was going on.
This horse was a very "Right brained" thoroughbred type that was just not listening to anything.Did you notice it only had one eye ?It was barging running through its owner and anyone else in the way and just did not notice he was there.
Linda had to use very strong pressure just to get it to listen and with one eye that was not easy as she literally had to ask it to give "two" eyes all the time.
If you look at some of the later tapes you will see it standing on the sidelines calmly watching and at one session,although you don't see it,Linda praises the owner for his persivearance because the horse is having a lovely relaxed roll outside the ring and she is pleased that he has reached the stage where he can relax that much

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God created all equines equal,He just trimmed the ears on the Dumb ones :0)

I remember that part! You did see the relief in the horse that he finally had some clarity on what to do and what to don't, so it was quite efficient indeed. It's not how I would do it or others in AND, but it serves a goal.

That's an important thing to keep in mind when discussing methods over here: they all have their own goal. If you look at Parelli (and forget what they're trying to convince you of), then their goal simply is to creat a safe, non-argumentative horse as soon as possible. Their method, lots of pressure and quick release, serves that goal really well. When you accept that Parelli therefore has it's own right of existence and do not say that it's stupid because they don't let the horse have his own opinion (because that is the entire point of their goal), then you can look at what could be useful for you in your own personal training system.

Yes, Parelli does use a lot of pressure and force, and it is a correction-based learning system that has as its goal to create a silenced horse (at least that's how it was before the L&HB) and it's expensive (because they're trying to make a real living out of it instead of allowing themselves to be grossly underpayd like most other horsepeople ) - but that's just how it is. For me a much more interesting question then what's wrong with Parelli, is what can I for my own training sessions learn from them?

What studying Parelli did for me, was making me realise how small cues can be(come), and how you can make them that small. Of course I knew that already, but I had never seen a method focus on that this much, so seeing that being spelled out really made me realise that I (when I still was using a lungeing whip for example) was being quite annoying with it.

Another thing Parelli made me realise, was that you can divide all movements into very tiny parts. I have a classical dressage background, and in there sideways movements are things that 'happen' at a certain point and then after some time your horse moves his front- and hindlegs in the right way in the right direction - be it from the saddle or on the ground. When seeing the Seven Games of Parelli, I realised that you can really split all movements up in several smaller exercises, like 'just move the hindlegs sideways', or just the frontlegs, away from and towards the trainer. Of course classical dressage does have it's turns around the front/hindlegs too, but that often only comes after the first real sideways movements, so I didn't really realise that I could split all that up in different leg-movements right from the start. And the fact that I realised that, helped the ponies too.

For the rest I see the system as it is; I can't follow the philosophy or the learning tools they use, but they do have very interesting elements for me. But you can only start to see/appreciate them if you appreciate the method for what it is: a thing that works for a certain goal - even if it's not the one for you.