The Art of Natural Dressage

I'm not one for trying to legislate what is, or is NOT abuse, (although part of me would REALLY like to).

But I sincerely wish that there was a law that required listening to this entire webinar before purchasing or in any way assuming the responsibility and/or use of a horse.

And I realize there are different approaches to natural hoof care. Although the website concerns for a specific type of hoof care, that's NOT what the webinar is about!

The website is at:

http://www.equinesoundness.com/

Scroll down to:

For the Recording of the Webinar
"Partner Horse" click here

Best Regards,


Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss & Combustion
( And Rebel & Nikki )

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We can not solve the problems WE have created with the same thinking that created them

I thought this was really great. I could have written it myself!!!!!!
Why is it taking so long for people to understand the horse is not just a large object for them to use as they wish.......
Unfortunately vets and livery yards are the battle most owners face when wanting to keep a horse and it's an uphill battle all the way as a livery client......
I find myself constantly having to make compromises in the way my horse lives as I can't control what happens with him when I am not there. Should I not keep a horse as I don't own my own land? I consider my horse one of the lucky ones, he has herd company and movement and is fed a natural diet and I do everything I can to make sure his needs get met because without that, he is not having a quality life.
Now if only these types of info packages were in the face of most owners daily, some changes might get made.

Thank you for posting the link.

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Annette O'Sullivan

Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. - John Lennon

I will try to watch another time, as I have computer gremlins that cause the video to load but then continually remain in buffering without playing.
I have always believed that people should not be able to go out and buy pets without first passing a very basic test to show they have understanding of diet, exercise, physical and mental health, regardless of whether the proposed pet is a rabbit or lion, some type of licence not exploited by costs but to provide a minimum standard of education of what provisions are needed. Long way to go for legislation to treat farm animals, especially breeding sows to a better life, industrialised animal farming breaks ones heart as much as neglect of pets by humans who fail to care properly for them for their full lives. xx

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Susie xx
http://www.flickr.com/photos/piepony/

My sentiments EXACTLY!!!!!!


When do they realize they're not just an 'over-sized luxury animal'?

When do they accept the responsibility for the mental, emotional, instinctual and spiritual needs of a sentient being?

Probably never if more of us do not band together for the good of the Horse.



The true enemies of the domestic horse are Tradition, Ignorance, Competitive Peer Recognition and Avarice.

Eliminate, minimize and/or nullify those, and the domestic Horse has as close to 'heaven on earth' as is possible.



Each of us must answer that ourselves.

I consider my horse one of the lucky ones, he has herd company and movement and is fed a natural diet and I do everything I can to make sure his needs get met because without that, he is not having a quality life.
Environmental enrichment.



As I said, it needs a concentrated effort. That starts with a 'gathering place.' Our half glitch-defunct-crippled forum was named 'International Association of Concerned Horse Owners.'

But a name like that would initially seem to exclude those who supported our cause who weren't 'horse owners.'

Any suggestions that would use the word 'International'?

Or a word that would mean 'all-encompassing worldwide'?

Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss & Combustion
( And Rebel & Nikki )

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We can not solve the problems WE have created with the same thinking that created them

That's a shame. I hope you get it fixed soon!

It's not a 'watch video' type of webinar. It's the audio that's so crucial.

best regards,

Chuck & Kids
Lady, Able, Sundance, Boss & Combustion
( And Rebel & Nikki )

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We can not solve the problems WE have created with the same thinking that created them

I am not one who thinks of "tradition" as automatically bad, because there are numerous traditions and all traditions can be either wonderfully supportive of the being of the horse, or abusive. It comes down to the individual, always. I would certainly hate to eliminate tradition, because without it, I would not have found the classical path which has led me to a deeper understanding of what is healthy and unhealthy for the horse under a rider, and overall, the physiology of the horse. Within the classical realm, I have found more than enough to stretch my imagination, my wings, my love of the beings that are horses, and have found more than enough evidence of kindness and concern for the well being of the horse within that tradition. Is there also abuse there? Of course. But the abuse is not the tradition. The tradition is much greater than that and encompasses an entire world of horse learning in which one can easily embrace what is good, and discard those things we personally do not agree with. In it's entirety, "tradition" may not be what we seek, but within it is so much wisdom to be sifted out. It wasn't all bad.

Even ignorance has it's place because from it is borne knowledge. We all start somewhere and it is the precious few who begin their journey with full knowledge of the sentience of the horse or the possibilities of deeper connections. Most of us had to wade through ignorance with tall boots, a strong will and much determination to find our way out of that bog. But really, I don't meet too many people who wish to remain in a state of ignorance - and the word itself, well, it IS a bit subjective. To each his own ignorance. I am still massively ignorant about so many things, but my horse is glad that I keep trying to better myself.

I wish only to provide an example of the possibilities that exist beyond the basics so many are taught. Where I board, there are young eyes, always watching, and so, SO many questions (and a whole lot of mimicking which is very cool!). If one simply does what one does, it attracts those of a like mind, even if those minds have not yet realized how alike they are. Seeds are planted. They grow when the ground is fertile and all the stuff of life comes together at the right time. The universe has drawn some remarkable people to our stable, both young and old.

The world is not a perfect place, but I smile when I think of the 800 or so members of this forum who either live the dream of looking deeper into the soul of a horse, or those who simply wish to look at the possibilities for a future time. I love that this forum exists for those curious and searching eyes. They will step beyond when they are ready, with some awareness of what they might expect, or some dream of what they'd like to create with a horse. I'm also warmed to know there are other people that are NOT part of this forum that are also out there doing what they do, sharing what they know and setting some amazing examples of what they feel is the right way to commune with a horse. Be they traditional cowboys, classical dressage masters, or backyard hobbyists who keep horses simply for the love of being in their presence. The world is made a better place by these people.

I would nevertheless prefer to welcome all (regardless where they are starting from), rather than saying too loudly that I believe this, or I believe that for fear that some may look briefly and then leave. I prefer a much more subtle approach of proof (I do what I do - I discuss what I do - I rarely discuss what others do that is not similar to what I do and I even more rarely say out loud that I do not like something that someone else is doing although there have been occasions), and yet, not all will want what I want or dream what I dream and what I think of as abusive is not at all abusive to others. I prefer to simply make sure I'm around and willing to answer when someone asks, "If not this, then what?". I wish for everyone the opportunity for education in what ever direction they choose, and that they find a friendship and a fondness or some reverence of some kind for the creatures they keep in domestication. That fondness alone will create good will between species. A friendly pat. A thank you for good service. A nice slice of good hay or a pasture with other horses. Care and attention when they are sick or injured. Sometimes, that is all anyone can hope for. But with a little fondness, a little reverence, at least then the heart (both human and equine) is open to possibilities.

This forum, again, is a study group. The intention isn't to say "everyone should know this" or to imply that anyone should have to start FROM a particular place, because that would make those that have not started from there, feel that they don't belong here. That in itself would be a tragedy I would choose to avoid. I love it when great links are shared as a source of good information, but never, ever do I want anyone to think that I THINK it is something they should have to know, or not to own a horse at all. We have here, some remarkable people, who have never owned a horse before, who now have a horse and are unsure what to do. So for those, and for everyone else, we lay out the information we know, we help them find paths to answers when they have the questions (because sometimes you don't know what you don't know!), but never do I wish to tell anyone that anything I know is something they SHOULD know. They may have a very different reality, a very different truth, and you never really know which is THE truth. Never. Not really. Only our own truths are known to us - and even then, if we're travellers on an educational journey, each one of us probably questions our own truths on a very regular basis. So for me, I'm always a little safer if I don't declare any personal truth as being a certainty.

We start seeking, we start asking. We never stop seeking and we never stop asking. That is the mark of the journeyer...the explorer. What shore one sets sail from, or what the vessel looks like, doesn't matter at all.

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

<smile>

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Karen, what a beautifully written response, kind, compassionate and encouraging to anyone who has aspirations to share time with equines.
The quote on your signature was apt,
I am sure many of us learnt in places that offered a foundation where teaching came from traditional methods. Very few people who want to be with horses grow up unsupervised in a herd discovering for themselves the language from horses, mostly this comes later if the opportunity presents.
There are throughout history those who question and add something to knowledge and who distinguish themselves, people like Prof William Youatt, Prof Bracy Clark and Prof Percival did much to alleviate suffering and brutalisation of horses and other animals.

With advances in technology, access to global libraries, neglect through ignorance such as keeping a dog without exercise in a 6 foot by 4 foot shed or failing to have a horses hooves trimmed regularly, or providing water to a pet in an outdoor hutch should not be excused, there are people who should not be allowed to keep any animal just because they can afford to buy it.

Morgan, I believe some ponies are at greater risk on privately owned land where no one other than the owner has access.
Instances of city people moving to a home in the country with a couple of acres and buying the children a pony, without thought for it's needs, shelter, nutrition, physical or mental well being and with no desire to learn from anyone.
Karen has a wonderful yard and is right that seeds are planted from observation and questions with answers that are not lectures.

I am comforted that articles by Dr. Francis Burton, Prof Thomas Tesky, Prof Robert Cook and many others appear in magazines like Horse and Hound which has a very traditional flavour.
There is now a demand for barefoot trimmers as well as EasyBoots and OldMacs, there are many companies manufacturing bitless bridles because they sell well, and K.F. Hemphling as well as many AND members videos get lots of YouTube hits, so more people are searching for this type of answer.

The money machine will produce some fakes and fanatic cults who trip themselves up when found out.

AND is diverse in it's membership and previously considered outside accepted normal, actually it feels very mainstream and there are few raised eyebrows if one is seen with a bitless, barefoot horse, or indeed a horse with no tack or simply a cordeo.
Horses are still bred and used for work in ranching, logging, carting and for sport/leisure/gambling in racing, show jumping, dressage etc.
but the majority of owners want to form a loving, trusting bond and seek a 'spiritual' connection with their horses, some owners will be disappointed by instructors who teach dominace others will accept it as a safety net without questioning...
...until they have a light bulb moment having watched someone have a conversation with a horse or stumbled across the AND website, and perhaps feel this is somewhere to ask questions or find videos to emulate.
Better yet, questions receive answers and the generosity of members means that a programme of learning does not cost hundreds or thousands as a DVD set with personalised ropes.
What a journey, total voyage of discovery, choosing what to try, finding what suits each individual horses personality, from freely shared help, learning to avoid some things and attempting to be better humans which helps other members, horses and ourselves to grow in many ways of knowledge and self knowledge. xx

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Susie xx
http://www.flickr.com/photos/piepony/

You are absolutely right Susie...there is no excuse for some treatment of animals. I think perhaps I can draw a line between ignorance and malice...one I can forgive because sometimes the wrongs are easily righted at least - to some degree of compassion for the basic welfare of the animal...but it's malice that needs to be looked at with a hard eye. Ignorance is a common malady of nearly everyone at some point in their lives, including myself, most certainly. I was lucky enough to be brought up with a strict sense of care for animals in our keep (and as a child, as soon as I was strong enough to wield the nippers and rasp, I did my own horses' hooves), but the training of those animals was a far cry from what I do now.



...or rescue it off the street. I agree completely. But there is all kinds of crazy in the world including those lost souls who think total neglect and rampant disease among hoarded animals is kinder than leaving them wild on the street. The best intentions gone horribly wrong. Bad things happen to good people. Bad things happen to good animals. But by focusing on the good, extolling the good, showing what is possible, we change a life. Then another person changes another life and it's paid forward and paid forward.

My post was simply a long winded caution that we are watched by those who are too shy or for some reason choose only to observe silently here...and I feel compelled to counter any hard lines drawn (even compassionate and well meaning lines) where they may repel those who peek curiously into the forum. I have run screaming from forum where hard lines were drawn, as were all the founders and first members of this forum. We needed forgiving space to breathe, to learn, to explore - so even at the slightest hint of a line being drawn, in whatever form it takes, gets me rushing in with an eraser to soften the aspect a little. Or at least to offer a cushion for those still looking for their truth. Does that make sense? It is not my intention to counter the link itself...honestly, I haven't had time to go listen to it yet, although I'm sure it's great!

My best teachers so far...those that have taught me the most compassion and those who have led me to want to learn more about the care of horses, have never, not a single one, suggested that I should do anything other than seek my own truth. They offer what they know and leave me to find the deeper connections on my own. I'm blessed to have found them.

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

It makes total sense, and it is the positive reinforcement of encouragement, forgiveness, generousity without prejudice that makes this AND forum such a wonderful place to spend so much time in. xx

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Susie xx
http://www.flickr.com/photos/piepony/

Hi Karen,

Did you listen to the entire webinar?

I am always eager to learn. Could you please tell me some of the 'traditions' that have benefited the domestic horse?



In the general horse world:

It is traditional to use spurs.

It is traditional to use a bit in the horse's mouth.

It is traditional to train a horse using some sort of whip and pressure/release, comfort/discomfort and pain.



Also, I said,

"I'm not one for trying to legislate what is, or is NOT abuse, (although part of me would REALLY like to).

But I sincerely wish that there was a law that required listening to this entire webinar before purchasing or in any way assuming the responsibility and/or use of a horse."

I did NOT say to absolutely abide by the webinar. The webinar refers to common sense and compassion for management and care for the domestic horse from someone I feel is a 'credible source.'

If you feel that this is not suitable for horse owners on a learning curve, that's fine. But I did, and so do many others. If you don't I'd appreciate knowing why you don't.

In it, she states:

"If you cannot afford your horse a lifestyle that keeps him sound, (meaning emotionally and physically in regards to stalling) then you are not operating in the best interest of the horse.

It will take some thinking, and require change."

That's why I offered it, (for some thinking).

I especially liked Simon's article entitled, 'All I want for Christmas is a whip.' '

Tradition' again...


Then there's this from an equine magazine in France:

"There is nothing wrong with tradition, except when it has passed its use-by date.
How can we tell ? Easy; we subject traditional methods to the modern tools called science, critical reasoning and ethics. If those methods stand up to our tests there is no problem; both their credibility and integrity are intact. But if they don't, then we have no sensible choice but to leave them in the past - and move forward.

If this all sounds too simple, it is. We don't care too much for changes that tilt our view of the world and our place in it so, no matter how much new methods may attract us on the basis of reason, there is an emotional cost to abandoning old and trusted ways of doing things. (It's called 'extinction-induced fear.)

At Natural Horse Planet magazine we understand these feelings, we have traveled that same road. We know these challenges inspire a little fear, which in turn sometimes births a little anger. We know that it is far easier to be commercial by diluting the message, and softening the challenge. But we also know that is not what the magazine is about.

We promise our readers to present our findings as honestly as possible, through our own features and contributions from authorities in the equine sciences. We won't make it soft and fuzzy. We won't water it down. We will show them the unequivocal truth, to judge for themselves."


And this from the Equine Veterinary Journal: (Dr. Deborah Goodwin)

"When we consider the reasons for people keeping horses and the way that they are managed, a great deal seems contrary to the behaviour which has ensured the horse's survival. People
restrict horses' freedom and ability to maintain social relationships; we expect them to allow
our presence in areas which make them vulnerable to attack; we make them jump over easily avoidable objects and expend energy travelling in repeated circles. This is not to say that the
horse has not benefited from its association with man, but unfortunately human culture has
both helped and hindered our understanding of the horse. All too often those horses which
cannot adapt to the conditions that we impose on them are destroyed. However, by appreciating the adaptive significance of equine behaviour, sympathetic and effective management of the horse can be achieved. Most people who own horses have their best interests at heart, but if misconceptions and inertia in traditional management systems are not challenged, improvements are likely to be slow to emerge."



I am simply offering dichotomic characterizations of Tradition/Culture (what humans need and live for) as clearly opposed to Nature -- what horses need and live for.

As do these videos by two highly esteemed International horse people.

Toxic Trainers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqcLADsOA0c

Sikunder's Law http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GoKhLYO ... re=related

So, I wasn't dictating what anyone should believe or do as an absolute, (just listen to it as 'food for thought.'

kind regards,

Chuck & Kids

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We can not solve the problems WE have created with the same thinking that created them

Yep. In the classical tradition, one brings a horse through it's training slowly and in a healthy manner with composure being a key factor and allowing the horse the freedom to express it's natural beauty. There are classical traditions that cover all that AND is about. I simply ignore the aspects of that tradition that I feel are not good for my horse.

There are precedents in the classical tradition for the way many of us use the cordeo (Captain Raabe - and where he may not have used a cordeo per se, he was well aware of the magic of the area at the base of the neck where the cordeo has the most effect in aiding the lifting of the base of the neck). The strengthening, straightening, engaging effects of the lateral movements are all from the old masters. Understanding the effects of the movements on the physiology of the horse. The flexions that bring us to the decontraction and total relaxation of the horse (that leads to trust and willingness). The fact that a horse should learn to round and lift the back and how to go about it, is all found in those traditional writings.

All can be done without a bit, without spurs or without any other "tool" than the imagination. I look to the classical tradition for all that it offers and feel confident in utilizing the concepts while modifying the techniques to fit my ideas on how I wish to work with horses.

I don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water. There is huge value in studying the traditions of classical horsemanship to help understand how a horse, under the weight of a rider, should move in order to carry the rider in a healthy way. It helps us to understand how to teach a movement and when to recognize if the horse is ready for it. I could go on! But "tradition" is not just the bit and the spur. It also encompasses the whole cult of the horse. There is nothing new under the sun. All that is possible and all that is not was written about centuries ago. People have been kind to horses and mindful of their well being since before the time of Xenephon. Individuals may NOT be kind. But the traditional knowledge is based on a reverence of the horse and consideration for it's well being. How that knowledge is used is up to the individual learning it.

So I will maintain (for me) that there is more to the term "tradition" than what I might think is bad or wrong. All the knowledge I need to be (whatever I consider to be) kind can be found within the very same tradition. I have yet to do anything with my horse that some old horseman before me wasn't already aware of.

But this is only me, of course. I do not know how everyone feels and I do not ever expect people to agree with me. They may, or they may not, and yet we can still share what works for us, what doesn't, etc.

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"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

I could not prepare and enjoy so wonderful veggy recipes without knowing the traditionals with meat.

I would never have found a way to train with horses to empower them without studying Antoine De Pluvinel, De La guerinere and Xenophon.

This forum is not about complaining about all that one sees as horse abuse and put a name tag on it.
This forum is about taking what you CAN use and leave behind what you can't.

This, we believe, leads to knowledge and a new powerful positive behaviour and environment for both men and animal.

Once more Chuck, I must ask you to read our house rules, thank you.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17

And yes, the world is changing, vast, a shame that you can not see it. Maybe you should focus on what is positive and changing instead of keep focussing on what you wish to change.
This will help those who you want to change as well, as you are no longer focussing youy negative energy on them which will only make them feel defensive and close their minds....

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www.equusuniversalis.com

Hi Chuck,

when I read your postings I often get the feeling you want to mobilise us to stand up against a certain group of people. While I understand your reasons for this are for the well being of the horse, I think this is not what we are doing here. I can only speak for myself and I too often felt the urge to get more active against certain developments in the "horse industry". Sometimes I do. I sign petitions and stuff. But in the end it all boils down to the responsibility of the single individuum and how this single person treats his own horse and fellow humans.
The strength of this gathering of horse lovers here is not that it signs petitions or goes public with proposals for laws. It is not collecting followers and show the world how powerful we are. At least that is not my kind of revolution. What I like about each and everyone here is that they try to do their best in their own special way. No rulebooks, no gurus, no requirements other than respect for the horse and constant self evaluation. No one has to prove him-/herself to be part of AND.
The outcome from this way of dealing with this topic is a gentle grassroots "revolution", if you want. Showing a way by good example.
It´s like waste separation, conserving energy, responsible shopping, treating your own children and so much more... You cannot really effectively manage these topics by setting up more laws. But you can teach your children, show your friends, just give a good example. I´ve seen it work so many times with my horse, that I guess I´ll try that mimikry thing on humans too.

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Volker

The horse owes us nothing.

The horseworld I knew 40 years ago was in need of healing.

A major part of the problem in finding ways to heal was that the patient was unaware it was ill.

Having a safe place to explore and diagnose is imperative - rather like hospital I think.

Here we explore in this safe place, which often means experimenting with all or anything that we might know, and allowing ourselves to seek what we do not as yet know.

It took me awhile to learn that about AND.

Donald, Altea, and Bonnie Cupcake

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Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.