The Art of Natural Dressage

LIP LICKING AND CHEWING BEHAVIOR

I am really concerned about Bravada’s licking and chewing behavior so I started to do some research on the subject. Some findings I got from 2 other forums.

There are several common contexts where this behavior may be shown by an animal:
1- anticipation for food or just after eating – here the behavior is not concerning
2- when “threatened”, placed under stress, when the aninal is nervous (ie the approach/retreat or round penning paradign) – here the behaviour is of concern and thus not a good thing.
3- when the animal is in behavioral conflict - it is information and while not desirable, is not always avoidable in this context.
4- when stress or pressure is relieved – this is the “whew! Glad that’s over “ reaction.

Lip licking and chewing are displacement behaviours (normal behaviours but out of context) and are indicators of conflict in the animals mind.

Lip licking is a conflict signal in pretty much every species (at least humans, dogs, cats, horses…). It is a signal that animals show when stressed or in a situation of perceived potential conflict. It is considered an appeasement/submissive signal as well for this same reason (ie the animal shows it in situation of potential conflict).
This is the point where the horse gets in an approach/avoidance or retreat conflict – hence the licking and chewing. He was gaining just enough confidence not to run from the handler, but not enough to approach – so he was conflicted about what to do.
It is hard to perceive licking/chewing as a “positive” thing in the context of round penning considering that you get it by chasing the horse around the pen. The idea of convincing a horse to come to you by sending it away from you is a bit of a contradiction.


Extracts from an interesting article on the subject
“Licking/Chewing=Learning”. Sue McDonnell, PhD, Certified AAB
The lowered head, relaxed posture, licking, and chewing are part of an autonomic response when stress or pain fluctuates , or when panic or startle resolve. The first scientific description I encountered was in the field of neurophysiology. In mammals, this cluster of responses occurs when the animal is returning from predominantly sympathetic tone (fight or flight response) back to parasympathetic tone (feed or breed response). This process is also known as sympathetic attenuation. So it is seen in all sorts of situation.

When a horse is suddenly frightened, then quiets down, the head drops, there might be salivation, tongue and jaw movements, and a sigh. It does occur in all horses, feral or domestic, whenever startled by something in the environment, or after a disturbance.

So in the popular demonstrations in which a horse is run around a pen, then allowed to stop – I think of the same simple underlying autonomic physiology. Scare or excite the horse, then stop.

Certainly, it could also be consistent with the more complex behavioral concept of displacement behavior. This term refers to behavior occurring out of context (usually feeding behavior) in a thwarted goal or conflicted situation. The horse is motivated to escape, but is thwarted from escape and the energy is redirected to feeding motivation, which includes salivation, chewing,etc. The jaw and tongue movements relieve the energy and so attenuate the stress.

The physiologist’s and behaviorist’s interpretations seem much more plausible than the submission, trust, “digesting a thought”, or “dawning moment” you hear about in popular horse talk. That’s why some people question whether the high-pressure aspect of some “natural horsemanship” techniques are the most humane. They would say that if the horse is thinking, it’s likely “ I’m scared, want to get out of here now”, or “Thank goodness this guy has stopped chasing me in circles so I can relax for a minute”

More recently we’ve been doing some cognition studies using all positive reinforcement. This involves basic operant conditioning trials designed to test the ability of horses to understand a concept in relation to discriminating between various olfactory, auditory, or visual stimuli, presented two at a time. When at first the horse accidentally made the correct response, it got a food reward. If the choice was incorrect, no treat, no punishment, we just went on to the next presentation.

Each horse reached an “Ah ha!” point where they seemed to “get it”, after which they made nearly 100% correct choices. They seemed more eager in their anticipation of the next presentation and more enthusiastic in their response as if they could play the game all day. And their enthusiasm for learning seemed to stay with them.

Some individuals do go through a stage of apparent frustration when early – or by chance—they have a series of incorrect choices. They might paw and turn their head back away from the stimulus presentation board as if they want to leave. When those animals finally “get it”, they might show some lip licking, jaw movements, and deep exhalation, but those signs are not as strong as the situations involving fear, pain, or punishment learning paradigms.


Interpretation of Bravada’s behavior

In light of these findings, I would say Bravada’s behavior is expressed in 3 different situations

1- If I run with her (after her in her mind) and I am too intense in my play, she will turn around, face me, lick and chew to relieve the pressure I put on her. More or less like the round penning situation. Therefore, I need to be very cautious not to put pressure on her and stay at a good distance or not run after her so I don't step into her bubble.
2- In the last months I have introduced her to many new things (ball, walk, trot, stop with the cordeo, piaffe, collected frame, new lungeing method, spanish walk). She is an enthusiastic learner but she gets frustrated when she does not get it. She paws and turns her head away from the cue. So when I click, she will release the frustration by chewing and licking. Like “ouf I got it”. I am not sure we can always avoid some kind of frustration from our horse when we teach them now things. I will try to look for the first sign of frustration and try to be more consistent and explicit with my cues.
3- I also realized that she sometimes chews when she hears the click even though she is under no stress: being quite relaxed, her head down and not being asked to do anything. This would be in anticipation of food like a Pavlov's reflex. I don't think I can do much about it

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Madeleine

Hi Madeleine,
first of all: Welcome to the Forum!
And thank you for this excellent summary of the different explanations of what lip licking and chewing can mean!
I have always asked myself why my horse does that lip licking sometimes after we did some groundwork. It is not much - it is just a short licking of his lips while lowering his head and turning towards me. At our stable I have a specific problem: If I do not want to ride and I want to do some physical exercise with my horse I can only use the hall (do you say "hall" in English? Please, excuse my groping for words...) when it is raining. When it is not raining we are supposed to use the round pen, there is no extra place we can go. If I "play" with my horse in the hall (chasing him, making him turn on his hinds as fast as he can, he chasing me, kicking and having a lot of fun obviously), the lip licking NEVER occurs. When I do groundwork exercices like shoulder-in, going backwards and then sidewards and forward again, like the Spanish Walk (in its very beginnings, he is just lifting his forelegs at this stage a bit and does not even stretch out ), the lip licking NEVER occurs. But when I have to do some "traditional lunging", meaning I stand in the middle and ask him to trot and canter and so on in order to train his back muscles, he does not really look stressed. He soon relaxes and stretches his back and his neck and looks perfectly fine to me. But very often, after we finished work he turns to me and does a short lip licking... To me that is the proof that it has nothing to do with "digesting a thought" or a "dawning moment" - it rather seems to be a sign of relief...
Let me quote a passage of your text, Madeleine: "This is the point where the horse gets in an approach/avoidance or retreat conflict – hence the licking and chewing. He was gaining just enough confidence not to run from the handler, but not enough to approach – so he was conflicted about what to do." This makes a lot of sense to me.
And it leaves me with a conflict: I have to do this "physical exercise" once in a while with my horse - is there a way I can make it nicer for him?? Or do I have to live with it??
MAybe we should move this thread to the "Ground Exercise"-Box...
Stefanie

Sometimes we cannot avoid to put pressure on our horse during training. A horse that is anxious may get frustrated because he does not get the right answer.

Samething with a horse being lunged. If you are too intense (this depends on the sensibility of the horse) with the whip or your body language, you may be pressuring your horse without realizing it.

There are always some signs even light ones that the horse will give you. For instance, check his jaw for any tensiness. Before the horse will want to release pressure with his jaw and lips, he often will get tensed in the same area first.

While lungeing:
1- Avoid looking at his head, instead look at his shoulder.
2- Try to be very gentle with the whip.
3- Check for any signs of annoyance from your horse and quit right then. Put him loose, play with him for awhile, then resume lungeing.
4- Never lunge for more than 15 minutes without a break.

Let me know how it goes.

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Madeleine

This is very true. When I was starting to lunge in a big manege, she could just walk away when she felt too much pressure. Now that we play in a roundpen, I have to be more careful, but luckily that area is larger than I need for a lunging circle. So I just keep the circle smaller and when she is too close to fence, it means that my pressure was too strong or she didn't understand me. However, now I have no problem with lunging, she is very good in keeping the circle as small as I want. Also, I don't think that looking at her head is stressful for her. Sometimes I even look in her eyes to make sure that she understood what I want, or that we have the "connection". I think that it's something about domination/partnership. If I was dominant, she could be afraid of looking in my eyes.
But, I don't see her chewing or licking too often. Only when she's chewing a treat
One more photo:

Very interesting topic!

I give clickertraining/trick training courses, and there is one exercise which we teach to the horse with a positive correction (a sharp touch) as well as a positive reward (food): the not-eating. This in an exercise in which you hold some food in front of the horse, and when he wants to grab it, you say 'No', close your hand, turn your knuckles upwards and slap his lip if he wants to touch your hand. This slapping means that that you swing your knucles up from your wrist to meet his mouth if it's in the neighbourhood - you don't follow the head, you just say 'don't keep your mouth over here. If the horse responds by pulling his head away from your hand with food, you immediately click and reward (give him that food!).

In correcting you match his energy: if he does a big attack at first with his mouth open, you counter that with a sharp flick of your wrist in order to stop his movement. If the horse is polite but hanging too nearby for your liking, you just touch his lip with your knuckles, asking him to move out.

This is a very complex lecture as the horse is asked to do something 'unnatural' (he always thought that he could grab food up untill that moment) and he is corrected for the wrong behavior. But I have never seen a horse lick and chew over this or get really stressed: as the correction is matched to the behavior, and the good answer is immediately positive rewarded with food, the learning path is very clear. You tell the horse 'This will get you a correction, that will get you a reward - you choose!'.

I always found it amazing that they learned this exercises so quickly (it takes 10 minutes at the very most) and without obvious stress. But this article on licking & chewing set me thinking: maybe it's not just corrections that lead to licking and chewing, but most of all corrections that are too harsh, go on too long or are done with the wrong timing or without a positive reward following - and therefore that this stress is caused by the fact that the horse doesn't understand why he is corrected in this way.

And something to always keep in mind: a correction is a correction if a horse thinks it's a correction. A horse who hates lungeing or thinks it's very depressing, won't know why you make him feel bad for such a long period of time (if you're lungeing ten or fifteen minutes for example) and will get depressed, tense or stressed while lungeing because he doesn't know what he can do to please you and make you stop with this 'correction'. And for most horses lungeing isn't that much fun because he has to move in the same circle all the time and because he most of the time only gets positive corrections: the whip telling him to go to trot, to stop falling into the circle, to engage his inner hindleg, to speed him up a little etc. etc.. Most people when lungeing (me too... ) fall into the trap of telling the horse what he's doing wrong all the time, while forgetting to really reward the things that the horse does good. And I guess that's what causes the stress: not knowing the way out of being corrected, how to get a reward.

Indeed this exerecise I use whenever I give Evita (=foodjunky)a treat. When learning I did not have to touch her mouth though, just wait for her to move her head away. Now she must really look totally uninterested when I say treat for me to open my hand with a treat. But she only may pick it out of my hand shen I say "get it". She really likes this!

Madeleine,
I tried several things today. I usually never look at his head while lungeing. I look at his shoulder or his hinds - depends on what I am trying to get from him at that precise moment. I hardly use the whip at all, because he is a very sensitive horse. Body-language and a building up of "inner tension" (in your mind and your body) most of the time is more than enough. I tried to only work with him for 5 minutes. We had a little trail in our hall today - funny things to walk through or walk around or walk over. It seemed to me that he liked it a lot. He likes to do things on his own, to find a way over or around obstacles - it seems to be real fun to him. He relaxed, his trot was easy and light, his canter was calm but nevertheless beautiful. When I stopped him and once again told him that he was such a good boy - he turned towards me and did a short licking of his lips... AAAAHHH!! Where was I doing wrong?
Warmest regards from a still confused
Stefanie

Stef,

Do you give him treats when you tell him he is such a good boy?

Maybe the lip licking is anticipation for food.

Or since he is a very sensitive horse, the lip licking is a relief not necessarily from pressure! Can he be in pain? The lip licking was also observed from horse in pain.

Is the lip licking that you oberserved after the trail ride the same as the one you described during lungeing

At this point I am also a bit confused.

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Madeleine

Miriam wrote:


I did this with a horse I was playing with (Wally), that would not only grab for the food, but grab with his teeth. It worked really well, but instead of grabbing, he would just hold his head straight and open his mouth wide...teeth still ready. He is SUCH a funny horse. He was trying so hard but could not understand to take the treat with his lips and tongue. We compromised and I give him the treat in the very corner of his mouth. He did understand very quickly though, not to try and grab for the treat.

Madeleine,
no, I don't give him any treats any more. Only very, very rarely when I start with a new exercise. If I use treats he gets too greedy and does not concentrate on me but only on the cookie he is expecting
I did use treats in the very beginning when I did not know him very well and he didn't know me. I combined words like "Well done!" or "Good boy" with a treat - but only in the first couple of weeks (almost 2 years ago). Now, he gets a treat once in a while when we work on things like the spanish walk, for example (which is not a "walk" at all, yet!!). But I use the treats only once in a while so that he doesn't expect them every time we do groundwork.
Sorry for not being really clear describing what I did today! I did not ride him, I lunged him through this trail. I didn't use a whip, just my voice (and my body). Sometimes I stood still and let him walk in big circles around me, sometimes I walked with him whenever it was necessary. I am almost positive he wasn't under any pressure - at least not a kind of "pressure" that was obvious to me. I don't think that he was in pain, either... why should he be in pain when I am lungeing him? I use a halter or a cordeo - nothing else.
Maybe I have to redefine my idea of "pressure" - maybe just the fact that I keep him on a certain distance already is some sort of psychological pressure, or let's call it a "minor tension".
I will try out more things during the next days and let you know what happens.
Stefanie

That's an interesting thought, it might be just true. The pressure could be caused by physical problems (if there are any!), but also by the past of the horse. I don't know if he's been trained by others before, but if lungeing was taught in a harsh, strict way, then maybe that's still the mindset he's in.

I myself always dislike lungeing a little because it's not really a partnership that's going on: you stand in the middle and tell your horse to walk, trot and canter around you on your command. That alone can be mentally tough on a horse who likes your company and like to do things together with you. Why not try it the other way round, by you both running the circle? It's much better for your partnership (because your movements and energy are the same) and also more fair on the horse if you want to work with him on the basis of equality. It would be interesting to see if he would still lick and chew then.

I was watching the little Rooster today for any signs of licking and chewing. Very, very little. The only time he did it was when he was following me, and I started to trot, to see if he would. He didn't get it and the rope tightened betwen us. That concerned him, so I can't do it that way. He only licked a little, but I'm certain it was a "presure off" response.

He has his opinions (so far, he he doesn't like something, he bobs his head), and if I listen to that he seems to not feel pressured (or the release of it??), but then, my goal is to be very, very subtle, and use very little pressure so perhaps he is happy with that right from the start.

He got a few more treats today than yesterday, so we did work softly on extablishing when he was due a cookie, and when he wasn't, and that he really shouldn't fish for them in my pocket. I saw no signs of licking or chewing in exectation of a treat.

Don't know if these opservations are useful or not, as the cause seems to be fairly individual (?).

Although I need to be mindful of where Tamarack is in relation to me, in case he spooks (only until we're sure of each other), I am allowing him to find his comfortable distance from me (as long as it's not on top of me)...and so far, he's all for keeping the lead line slack. It will be fun to see where that distance is without the halter and lead, how he will respond to pressure at liberty. We have only had the one opportunity to be at liberty in the arena.

Miriam,
he was trained by his breeder to be sold on a huge international auction - I elaborated a bit on that in my "introduction"...
So, of course the lungeing was rather harsh and strict.
I usually move a lot while I am lungeing - if I ask my horse to walk straigt lines in trot, for example, we run side by side. I am not an old woman, Miriam, I think I am a bit sporty - but if I was asked to stay right next to my horse while he is doing his exercices in trot and in canter - hmmm, I think I would be dead after 10 minutes... with my lungs exploding. Plus, I am not fast enough... Or did I misunderstand what you were suggesting??
Stefanie

[quote="Stef] but if I was asked to stay right next to my horse while he is doing his exercices in trot and in canter - hmmm, I think I would be dead after 10 minutes... with my lungs exploding. Plus, I am not fast enough... Or did I misunderstand what you were suggesting??
[/quote]

Nope, that's the ordeal I put myself through too... But it's interesting to notice that running around is really tiring, especially when the ground is very deep or muddy. That was a real eyeopener for me...

Today it seems that Bravada was licking quite often. I no longer know what to think of it.

If she is at a distance and she does what I want, I will click and she will immediately start licking.

If she is close to me and I click she will not lick or chew, she will normally do soft nickers of pleasure.

Even though we have been doing clicker training for the last 3-4 years, I never used it quite intensely as in the last months.


She loves food, when I want her to play she just wander around and will come to me and lift her leg (beginning of Spanish walk) or flex at the poll just to get a click and treat.

She will get impatient if I don't click because I want her to improve. Then she does another thing that I am not asking like leg lift...

Maybe I am showing her too many things at once. I thought that we need to change often so the horse does not get bored. In a session (90 - 120 minutes) I could ask her to take a collected frame at the halt, walk and trot, leg lifts for an eventual piaffe, leg lift and forward movement for Spanish walk, free lungeing at the walk, trot and a few canter strides.

I never go more than 10-15 minutes without play (rather liberty). However, the play last 5 minutes max. Maybe it is not enough I should balance learning and play.

Can she be under pressure from all that learning.

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Madeleine

Great topic. As a PNH student, only recently did I realize that what NHers teach about licking and chewing isn't the only opinion out there




I've thought about this long and hard- traditional show horses don't lick and chew, but are often given very harsh aids and signals, that last forever, and they rarely understand them, so I don't agree with Miraim on this one.
As a PNHer the BEST way to GET licking and chewing is to take a dominant hard to inspire horse, and do a yo-yo game where you use a long light phase and then go to a very harsh phase and chase them backwards AND THEN imediatly release all the pressure. This makes me think the "submission" theory is right. But "when stress is relieved", and
"behavioral conflict" also make sense in this case.

I will say that I have never seen a horse lick and chew when it is being impulsive- a licking horse IS a thinking horse. They question is "what" are they thinking! My above example might be behavioral conflict because the horse is used to pushing around humans, but just found himself submitting, and is a little confused about how that just happened.

This is so interesting to me as I try to gradually become more AND and less NH.

So, How do you back up a dominant QH mare?!?!?!?! (without using lots of pressure- if there is a thread on that just point me to it!)

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Learning to put the relationship first.

I'm not sure about that. A horse can think without licking very well too, and will do so 90% of the time. So is the other way round that logical, is a licking horse always thinking? Releasing stress can happen without thinking, with just being glad that it's over. I don't think that licking and chewing mark self-aware mental processes, but that they are more a result of a falling away of pressure and/or insecurity.

By the way: showhorses don't lick during the show, but they do chew on the bit, just like dressage horses...

And another way of thinking: NH-trained horses lick excessively not only because they are trained with constant pressure-dropping of pressure, but also because they are rewarded for licking and chewing. Monty Roberts stops hunting the horse down through the roundpen when the horse licks and chews. Pat Parelli says to leave your horse alone when he licks&chews - while he also uses the leaving alone as a reward in itself. The only logical conclusion for a horse can be that licking and chewing stops the flow of unwanted attention. So who's training who?

Danee wrote:



One of the things stated in NHE, that I agree with WHOLE HEARTEDLY, is that horses do not view humans as horses...so normal horse to horse dominance does not apply. We do not pretend to be horses. We do not have to establish dominance. We do not have to make them "move thier feet". My boys know I have only two legs, and that I lack hooves (and that my feet a squishy when stood upon), that I feel pain differently, that I am emotional, that I give off scents different than horses do, and that I'm prone to hugging! I am SO not a horse.

So, I would first establish a friendly relationship. This has to come first, as long as it takes, avoiding conflict as much as humanly possible (unless the horse is in danger). Only friendly advances with no expectations. Trust must be established first. With trust comes inquisitiveness. With trust comes lightness, and a willingness to interact.

Once that trust is established, I would experiment with light pressure - always asking a question that the hrose can choose to answer in any way she sees fit. No expectations.

I would place a finger on her chest. Maybe she will just flex a muscle in the right direction, indicating to me that she's thinking backward, even if she doesn't actually take a step. I will reward her thought.

Or maybe she will arch her neck to touch my hand with her nose. It is an answer. Since I will accept ANY answer she gives, I will reward it. Because she answered, her answer will likely be the same every time, so I can catalogue that answer and use that question later when I want her to arch her neck.

So I look for other "buttons". Maybe I place a finger on the point of her shoulder, or the bridge of her nose, or her left knee, or place my foot gently on hers. I just touch. I experiment only. I look for the language that she and I can share. I ask questions, and I listen to her answers. If she answers with annoyance, I will avoid that place until there is more trust, and one day I will try that place again.

It is experimenting with lightness (pressure, but extreme light pressure). If I listen to her honest reponses to my honest, inquisitive questions, if I don't push, if I don't rush...something will cause her to take a step back.

It's not a goal to make her move her feet. It is a goal to establish a relationship, a two way understanding. There is no rule book that tells me I must touch in a particular place, or that I must use a certain amount of pressure to cause a reaction in the horse. The horse will tell me what question will result in the answer, "I will back up". If I am patient, the horse will see me differently than she will see any other person she has to deal with.

OHHH, good GOOD stuff!

Miriam, I don't think a thinking horse is a licking horse, but htat just a licking horse is thinking- maybe not engrossed in intellectual thought, however the prey animal "get outa dodge" button is not currently activated. But your post makes me realize that there is a big difference between the amount of thinking required to solve elaborate equations versus what is needed to watch tv!!! In NH we tend to see it as black or white.....

Just like we tend to see dominance as black or white!!!! Karen, you REALLY hit a vein!!! Either I have it, or the horse has it in my eyes. If anyone has anything else to add to Karen's post, I KNOW that changing this thought in my brain is going to be the big hurdle for me. That my horses will "listen to me " (see I'm still doing it!) without being the dominant one. Honestly I can't get my brain around it yet. All I can picture is taking my horse out to the pasture and on the way her putting her head down to graze, and I'm not "allowed" to TELL her to move it, and I grow old and grey waiting for her to decide that she is no longer a herbavor and doesn't like grass anymore. But I see horses ALL THE TIME who have push over owners and the horse still listens to most things- they still trot and walk when told, even though that human would NEVER MAKE them (not that they wouldn't try.) So why can't I get this to sink in. I can think about it and come up with good arguements for not having to be dominant, but I can come up with others why I need to be, and my self preservation instincts keep hollering that I should just skip this part of AND and go to the part where you teach ramener off the cordeo. That is what brought me here anyway. AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Over load.

But honestly, I think everytime I try to give this idea a chance a little twang of panic sets in. I have jumped 5' fences, ridden with NO tack in open areas and "lead" my horse to pasture at liberty, but giving up dominance scares me to death.

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Learning to put the relationship first.

I do not agree, there, at all. I know this is what is taught by most horse trainers who work according to (or like) Pat Parelli. Honza Blaha, for example, explained licking that way: "Your horse is thinking it over, she is "digesting" something mentally." I am pretty sure he is not right - the horse might have been thinking (or rather concentrating on something) before - but the licking itself is a moment of relief! If horse thinks something at that moment at all than probably something like "Puuh, we're done..." It is like a signal that the horse knows something is finished - and I am afraid that everything which happened BEFORE the licking appears, was connected by the horse with some sort of pressure. I know my horse can concentrate and "think" extremely well without licking and chewing afterwards. When we do groundwork without the lunge he has to think a lot!! And he never licks or chews! When I do "traditional lungeing" - which is rather an intellectual insult to my horse than anything else - he almost always licks and chews when we take a break or are finished...
Stef

Danee wrote:



Danee, the reason may be, because you have an agenda. You have a specific goal, or a set of specific goals. This may be your "mental block". I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying this could be what is keeping you from understanding that don't have to make your horse do something.

You have your level three video coming up, and you want your horse to look good. You want yourself to look good. You don't want the PNH folks who will assess the video to say, "that is good enough", as they do, likely, for hundreds of other level three videos they assess. You want to impress them. You want them to say, "wow, this girl stands out from the crowd - she does it better than most others we see". Most people have this thing inside of us, at some point in our lives, where we want to be recognized as being very good at what we do. Perhaps you wish to be a Parelli instructor one day? To be one of those special few?

You have goals, and you will have to see those goals through, and try all this later, or let go of your goals, start in a new way and see if that brings you new and different goals. But you really can't do both effectively. If you stop the Parelli and just do AND, then you won't get your level three. If you continue on the Parelli path and play with AND, you won't get to the heart of AND or NHE.

I think that really, you haven't convinced yourself you SHOULD change, because to do so would require you give up something you think is very important...your Parelli level three, and whatever you hoped might be beyond that.

I don't mean any of this to be rude, and on much of it I may be totally wrong because I really don't know you and never will. I simply mean it as a way to help you explore why this is so hard to wrap your mind around.

Yup, goal-aholic!

My goal is to do everything possible with a horse to the highest level, with no tack and a happy horse.

My ambition is definitly my best and my worst quality!!!

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Learning to put the relationship first.

I think there is more to licking and chewing. If you watched Alexander's horse when he flexed, his mouth was chewing.

I know for a fact that Nelson felt better chewing on peppermints when he was tense. When he was tense, he was thinking about bolting. It helped to loosen up his mouth, which also helped to open his mind, instead of thinking about bolting, he's thinking more about what is really happening and that I'm not killing him.

I think it's a tense release and it does mean, their brain is becoming unstuck and taking in new information. Thinking more of what is happening instead of feeling he's going to die.

I do believe that if you put too much pressure on them, then the licking and chewing would mean "phew thank god it's over." But it's still a tension release. But I think it's the wrong kind of tension release, because we goofed...we didn't need to put that much pressure on them.

I think like everything else, we have to look at the situation and not think that licking and chewing means one thing or yawning means one thing.

There were times, that Rosie and I would be trotting and she'd end up licking and chewing and I didn't put any kind of pressure on her. I just started trotting and she followed. We stopped and she licked and chewed.

All I can say is that it's interesting....
I was very interested in what I read and does make me think more of what is the cause of the licking and chewing....

I'm going to pay more attention and see what happens....

april

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Horse's idea becomes your Idea...

April

This topic made me think about some things...

1.
One is licking and chewing while clicker training. It's rewarding (for both, human and the horse) but it can be mentally demanding. Thinking can be hard. Horse may get annoyed by not being able to find the answer. Etc.

So: we ask (or just wait), the horse is looking for answer, he/she is not finding it for some time, gets a bit (?) frustrated, finally finds the solution, we click and reward.

Where is the moment of lowering the frustration level? Maybe when his/her mouth is busy with the treat? Maybe it's a 2 in 1 situation? Would the horse chew if the end of the situation was different (no food)? Hard to tell.

2.
Do you know the concept of "double chewing"? I don't know if anybody "officially" teaches about it. But there's something in it. If a horse is trained in negative reinforcement mode learning process is much quicker if you take pressure off for longer: it's very often one chewing, stillness, second chewing.

Maybe it's letting out the deeper stress. Than it would make sense: if one uses pressure-relief system, better relief (deeper) is... better. Well, maybe "more effective" would be more suitable.

3.
Why "traditionally" trained horses don't lick and chew? Is it the lack of time for relief? There is pressure but not necessarily lack of pressure. Or short periods of it.

Or maybe all this "chewing on the bit" is the same chewing we are talking about? This typical for NH trained horses. And it's just more difficult to notice it because "traditional" horses are rarely "naked" (or at least bitless)?

Well, they might just run after you and attempt to put a hoof into your back to remind you that you forgot to give them a cookie...



Traditional training, when done well with no malice, still requires a release of pressure as the reward. I have not come across any technique that really works otherwise. I have seen many traditionally trained horses lick and chew. For Cisco, it was mostly early on in his training. He rarely licks and chews now, but then I rarely apply any pressure that would concern him.

Tam only licks and chews if he has misunderstood something (pressure) and he is very unsure of my intentions. The more we get to know one another, the less he even thinks of chewing - other than on a treat that is.

Well, of course - if you have binary system (pressure - no pressure) you need both "1" and "0"

I'm just not sure if "0" is the same in "nh" and "traditional". When I think about traditional training and the relief, something like "give a hand" comes to my mind. Or "walk on loose rain for few meters". Not all those "stop and wait for the horse to lower the head, lick, chew and relax". (But maybe it's all about different implementation of the rules, not different rules.)

Like in nh one was looking for deeper relaxation. Or maybe not? Maybe it's just rewarding for being not active. A bit like Miriam wrote - you take pressure off when horse is doing something specific (licking, chewing, standing still with head low). A bit like "click for behavior reward for position" (instead of click you would have the release of pressure and lack of new commands for reward).

LOL...yes, you are right. See, I think of NH for the most part as still "traditional". But now that I think about it, I can remember when I was a kid, and watching my Dad train a horse. It wasn't a pretty sight. "Reward" was not getting hit with something. I don't know if a release of pressure was a conscious thought or not...if it was, I don't know that I actually saw it in action.

His horses would all come running to him when he called. That is because he spent a good deal of time with them in a corral, and if they turned their butt to leave or escape, they got hit with a whip or a rope. So they learned to face him first. He could then work that into them coming when he called their name (because if they didn't they would get hit) and they would come running, literally. They thought he could hit them even from the far end of the pasture.

I never got THAT abusive. But I was brought up thinking you had to make a horse do things. I'm glad that fate (and a few horses, but most notably, Cisco) has taught me differently.

I was thinking this morning, about Nelson. He has changed again, which is really super. I was thinking about how far he has come and remembered something about him.

The first time, out of the blue, Rhett took off after Nelson and nipped him on the butt to get him moving faster. I at first, thought how rude this was. And it was a good chase, while everybody else continued eating or just stood and watch, peacefully. As soon as Rhett stopped, Nelson turned and faced him and started licking and chewing and he was less tense.

I had several oppuninities (spelling is wrong I know, sorry) to see this happen and each time, I can see that it really helped Nelson feel more confident and relaxed.

I remember following Nelson around Woody (another horse). We went round and round and right under Woody's head. We did this for several days. At first I felt, I was getting through to him, but after several days have passed, I felt it was going to be a stilmate and I needed to do something. But, what was I missing? Then I happened to look at Rhett and remembered how he dealt with Nelson.

At first I hesitated, but I gave a light push on his rump. Not much happened, Nelson continued going around Woody. I have him a much harder push to the point he lost balance with his hindlegs. He didn't fall over, but it was a good 2 feet of a push. His head dropped a tiny bit. I did this 2 more times and then he wheeled around and his head dropped and he was licking and chewing. I was then finally able to walk up to his head.

I know I finally connected....

April

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Horse's idea becomes your Idea...

April

I was able to catch on video what she does sometimes after either running and facing me or after running, facing me and rearing up.

Is this an expression of releasing tension? If so that means I put too much pressure on her. Maybe it is the enclosed area because this summer she did not lick her lips during any of our wild games and running...

She also looks away from me. That maybe another sign!

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Madeleine