The Art of Natural Dressage

Hi everyone,
Ok, I'm relatively new to dressage after coming back to riding after quite a long time off. I'm also new to the ideas of classical vs modern. I've bought Gerd Heuschmann's book and to be honest its far too advanced for me at this time and hopefully I can come back to it at a later date.
I then bought Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage which I found better but I think my brain just struggles to take in information from a book!

Can anyone explain or recommend anything (book, article, dvd etc.) that is very simple and breaks down what we as classical dressage riders are trying to achieve and what we're not - basically a what's 'right' and what's not when you are watching riders. I really stuggle to know what I'm looking at when someone says that it's not correct or classical.

Help please?! Thanks!

hello,
welcome, I hope you will introduce yourself further, I'm looking forward to knowing more about you and your path with horses, but I will try to answer your question already.

well, that is a difficult question, for me I can say that I believe the differences are:
-the time I try to take to train, I do not want my horse 'ready' at 4 years for competition, I only started to really ride him at six and aim at an age of about 14 for him te be at his so called 'top' (but I do not know what the top will be yet); but I know most modern dressage horses are old and done with at 14 or 16 years, I want Beau to become 30 years old without major problems!
- the lightness of my aids, I want to do as little as possible and believe that my horse can do anything if I am not in his way, so I do not need a bit, I would love to say no reins, but I am just not good enough to do that yet (I'm only learning) and no whip or spurs to get my horse to go. At least I am for no tension, I want him to get his own posture and know he can look beautiful when he gets into that posture without me pushing and forcing him into it; while most modern riders use a lot of pressure
- I also think that most modern riders use the exercises to win their competitions and classical riders use the exercises to get their horse more flexible and stronger so they become healthy athletes; my goal is not to win anything, it is to have a well balanced strong horse, that I can also take out on rides and do anything with lightely, no force, just working together...

I don't know if that is enough, but I think that is the way I basically feel about it...

big hugs
Barbara

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Horseriding is an art

My horse is a beautiful living sculpture

Thanks Barbara for taking the time to post. I suppose that I understand the principals of classical dressage as opposed to 'modern', what I mean (probably didn't explain myself properly!) is that I'm still struggling to know what I'm looking at. For example if we take Edward Gal and Totilas, I have heard some say that it was the most amazing partnership etc but then on some classical forums, talk about all the negatives - hind legs not engaged etc. I can watch videos and see very obvious tension in horses and when riders are using very hard hands but more often than not it's a lot more subtle to the untrained eye. Basically, how do I train my eye?!

ha thats a hard one

Try to focus on yourself, follow your feelings. Each time you ask something from your horse ASK it and dont force it.
If the horse don't understand try to ask it in a different way, or ask again, but still asking.
Maybe he is not ready to do the specific exercise and you have to wait and do other things.
It have to do with balance and strength of you and your horse. That have to be perfect before you get what you wanted.

If you ask something difficult you have to cut it in small peaces so you can learn him several steps until you finish the whole exercise. Train it next to your horse and later on when he can do it on his own (in freedom) you ask it when you sit on the horse but start at the beginning again.

i won't debate topriders over here. You can see some good translations on the site of horses for life (it is a magazine)
they have pics about what is good or wrong.

same as Barbara i hope you introduce yourself further, thats normaly happens over here before they ask any questions

Well, let's say that's what most people do if they want the others to know more about them, but it's completely up to the poster if he wants to write an introduction or not.

Like Inge said, we are not discussing the work of other riders here as in taking them as examples to point out what is wrong. Instead, we try to focus on what we do want, what we think is right for us and our horses. In the first part of the Links to threads topic you will find some threads that might answer some of your questions. If you have further questions, you are always welcome to ask (just not me as I only know very little about dressage).

jup, I misunderstood!


I just know from the books that a real collected horse never has a frontleg that goes under the body, it is vertical at all times, but I lack seeing this in movement too sometimes, it is not always obvious to me. The same goes for the poll being the highest point, which brings the nose slightely in front of the vertical, but that is just really theoretical and I know that when you are working yourself more on how things feel when riding yourself or working on the ground that you can at least make out what seems right or right enough for you, because perfection is not a living thing and you and your horse are...

I would not think so much about it, just enjoy yourself and when your horse is collecting himself at liberty, than you can really tell, at least how it should look for your horse...


have fun!

_________________
Horseriding is an art

My horse is a beautiful living sculpture

Hi,

I'm no good at answering riding questions, but I figured some things out on the ground. And it is my approach to work on the ground until I have the feeling that I have trained my eye for a certain movement or position enough to maybe also recognise it again when in the saddle.
What really works for me is liberty work and classical in-hand work. Especially the latter is a very good way to train the feel. You can see the movements of the horse and at the same time feel the lightness of the reins (or the lack thereof ).
Constantly switching to liberty work is a perfect way to verify if the horse is carrying himself, or not.

When working in a positive way and keeping a good focus on the voluntary cooperation of the horse, the question of Classical vs. Modern riding has become quite insignificant for me.

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Volker

The horse owes us nothing.

Thanks so much everyone for your comments and support!

Perhaps if I put my question into context and give you some background. I'll try and be brief! I used to ride and owned horses - it was pure pleasure and all about jumping - flatwork was flatwork never dressage and boring! Besides my pony 'didn't do that'. I then grew out of her and bought a 5 year old - how naive I was! I assumed that it would be no different. We've all been there haven't we?! Anyway, I lost my nerve and due to a culmination of things I gave up riding for about 6 or 7 years and my pony went on long term loan to a riding school.

I then started to have lessons again just once a week and realised how much I had never been taught about riding and the basics of flatwork. I really enjoyed it and when I lost my pony and was no longer a horse owner after all those years I took a horse on part loan 3 days a week. She was a warmblood and I had her for about a year and a half and she was difficult! Her job had always been jumping and I was trying to turn her into a dressage horse. Looking back she was very broken and had been ridden in side reins etc. Just trying to get her to relax and not rush was a struggle. In fact, I spent most of the time very frustrated and very upset with myself that all I knew was to be hard on her and pull on her mouth. There is only so much of using your core muscles to get a horse into some kind of rhythm and balance you can do! Although I do have very good core strenghth now!

I pretty much had her to myself but then her owner started to ride more and it became difficult as we had two very different views on training. I decided to give her up, (typically just after I found a good classical trainer!) and save up for my own horse again. I have since been riding only occasionally but in the meantime learning as much as I can about classical dressage in preparation for me to know what I'm looking at when I go horse shopping. I will probably be looking for something quite young so I don't have to undo other people's mistakes. I have also been looking at my own position etc. which will obviously be very important. Although a very long way off what I'd love to achieve is in these quotes by Gustav Steinbrecht who wrote the famous book Gymnasium of the Horse:

As the blind person touches the object before him very softly and lightly with his fingertips in order not to interfere with the work of the sensitive nerve ends by too much pressure, so it is the rider's first obligation to keep soft and natural those parts of his body with which he feels his horse. If his seat meets this requirement, he will soon feel the movement of the horse's legs and will be able to distinguish each individual one; he will thus have the means at his disposal with which to control them as if they were his own.
G.Steinbrecht. (1884)

A rider in a steady, finely adjusted, balanced seat makes the fully trained horse so receptive to the aids of weight displacement that it can be kept in the required movements almost exclusively by such weight displacement. In its desire to keep in harmony with the rider, the horse will inadvertently follow the direction which the rider's position indicates.
G.Steinbrecht (1884)

Oh if only we could ride like that!

I think what I'm realising that I'm in a bit of a catch 22, I can't learn this stuff and what is 'correct' and what is not without having my own horse to get to know and observe but I want to educate myself as much as possible in order to help me make the right decision!

i think that you can not learn how to ride from a book.
Riding is feeling a connection between you and the horse both enjoy the company of eachother.
Starting from the ground free in the fields and get connected. Then enjoy the freewalks, later on play games.
Look at the diary of Romy for example, she have lots of nice video's so you get an idea of what i mean.
When you and your horse are happy then the riding is just a finishing thouch of you wanted to go for a ride.

Volker just started with a nice horse and he is preparing him for riding in a very nice way. Also lot of pics.
I think that are the basics and not the picture you have in mind.
It is not nececery to own a horse, it would be nice but if it is not possible so be it. A horse can have differend realations with differend people, the same they can have with horses. The main thing to share a horse is that the owner allow you to be yourself and do maybe something else then he or she is used to.
Maybe you will find someone who thinks the same who know??

It is not so much about what we call our riding (natural, academic, classical, modern etc.) but about what goal we have.
In general sport riding has the goal to bring the rider further as professional rider, win prices, get sponsors etc.
Academic or classical riding has the goal to develop both horse and rider, keep the horse healthy but still very obedient. The goals of what the rider wants to do with the horse count as a rule. All though smart riders search out horses that have a talent and taste for the goals they set out for their horse.

Within the Art of Natural Dressage we have the goal to empower the horse, find out what he needs and wants. Horse emancipation if you will. We are interested in what he (the horse) wants to communicate to us, often even more than visa versa (making horse understand what human wants). There is no right or wrong really, just development for both human and horse. The movements are simply movements horses make, or else we could never retrieve them. So we try to retrieve and inspire them from our horses by rewarding their every effort towards that beautiful self expression, whether on the ground or in the saddle. Because the horse is always free to say no, harm to his body and mind will be limited in our view

Hope that clarifies somewhat more.

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www.equusuniversalis.com

Nicely put, Josepha.

_________________
Volker

The horse owes us nothing.

Hi there,
I definitely relate to being in the place "just before you see" Because that is where you are at, I think. You stopped blindly believing (if you ever were) and are questioning what it is the "experts" are talking about. Congratulations!
(Of course I am also just learning this too, so please, anyone - let me know where my knowledge is lacking etc...)

Few suggestions for you:
1) stop thinking that it is incredibly complicated
2) make sure you have a working knowledge of the horse's anatomy - you can picture his bones and maybe even the major muscle groups by looking at a horse
3) it really helps to kind of superimpose a drawing of the horse's skeleton - even a very basic one - like if he was a "stick horse". The important parts would be: the complete hind leg up to the hip, the pelvis. the spine all the way to the head.
4) begin at the halt. figure out how your horse is standing - paying attention to all the parts important to true collection (you mention being familiar with the theory)



...it literally happens like the books say...

5) you can try and play around with finding out the mobility in the horse's body by the following exercises (of course use common sense about not crossing any comfort lines with the horse and paying the price... )
to look at the raising of the back - use pressure on the underneath of the horse's belly (mid-line or so) - experiment with location/pressure to get him to lift his back (or wait 'till he has a bowel movement and observe...)
to look at raising the forehand - pressure on the sternum - again, play around to get a result
for the pelvic tilt - put pressure on his haunches, usually beginning both sides of the top of the croup (standing behind the horse) applying pressure downwards, kind of digging into the muscles there - there is a spot where most horses will tuck their pelvis. Not saying this is exactly what you are looking for, but it's kind of neat to observe the mobility.
you could probably have a good conversation with a qualified equine body worker about this...

6) for observation of moving horses - it sometimes helps to focus on the Lumbar-sacral joint as well as the 4 joints of the hind leg. In some horses, it's almost like the LS "opens" instead of the pelvis tucking under - it seems like you can see a clear hinge there - with the croup flattening and hind legs obviously trailing. (not collection)
once again, trust yourself to see it. Think in simple terms and look for the bones

I just remembered - this site helped me tons: http://www.sustainabledressage.net/collection/true_collection.php

there is tons more when you begin to see the muscles, but hope this helps for now?
A great topic, by the way, I would love to learn more about this as well...

Thank you Zuzana! Very helpful post!

I especially like point 5 in your list - I have to play around with that.

For me it was the playing around at liberty that helped me most. With no set agenda, just trying to make my horse move. Without any whips, sticks, ropes or other tools.
Since it is not so easy to get my horse moving, I really had to get the energy right and the right parts of my own body engaged, before he would do anything. So by and by I got a feeling of what moves what and where the energy comes from. It's almost a form of bio-feedback I'd like to say. I feel through my body what makes his body move. This is why I value the liberty work so highly and the experimental use of body language.

And of course a by-product of all this is that I get all those movement patterns of my horse stored somewhere unconsciously, so I have the feeling now that I know how some things should look like. Next step for me is to do the same on the horse to get even a more visceral image instead of just a visual one.

_________________
Volker

The horse owes us nothing.

Glad it helped!
In your liberty play, focus on the time your horse slows down (or halts). The times that he does this correctly, he will put his hind end under and lift his forehand/poll.
In the beginning, you may have to "surprise" him with an energetic request - at least from the trot to halt. Of course I do not mean to scare him or be harsh, but be energetic! I am sure there are many ways to help your horse to do this. The way I follow is of Klaus Hempfling - where to stop the horse, you take an active step forward, tilt your own pelvis, bend your knees - in a way you encourage the horse to imitate. (I would love to find out others' opinion on this and other ways...)

It is this automatic reaction of a sound horse (or any 4-legged animal, by the way - you should see my sheep or pigs "collect" while stopping from a run ) to stop on his hindquarters. It is the only way to stop without causing discomfort or even pain and being able to move off in the next instant.

I do it exactly the same way. I also use this for all transitions, for example walk-trot. Sort of push myself forward from a bend in the knees. It causes Mucki to collect and start the movement from the hindlegs - at least I think it does .

_________________
Volker

The horse owes us nothing.