The Art of Natural Dressage

How would you define it?
Ok, sorry for this strange pic I was learning a 3D graphic program and thinking about collection at the same time.
So I found out, that my definition of collection has changed... definetely, as I'm playing/working/training/how to name it? with my horse. When arguing with someone else I realised that my definition is now in statu nascendi... just like my horse's ability to collect. But, I would say that for me it's when my horse does the same thing, that she does in play, but in a certain order, and on cue. With the same engagement.
One trainer sayed, that a person who was translating a text from English to Polish, translated the word "collection" to "mobilization". And... maybe only this one word is needed to define it?
On the other hand, we could count some signs, like hindquarters under the body, relative elevation, vertical flexion, etc. But here, there would be no difference between a forced collection (with rollkur, Pessoa system, or whatever) and this collection which "happens" in horse's mind. For me the latter is more important.
Someone argued, that collection as an ability to do certain exercises is only a trick, even if the horse is free. But I would rather say, that this is more practical for horse - when the horse knows why it's necessary. Only then collection can be voluntary... but maybe everyone should have their own definition of collection. That would be even more enriching for us

There already is a topic on this subject:
http://www.pro4s.nl/artofnaturaldressag ... ic.php?t=9

Maybe you can post your message under this topic?

Bianca is right, but I'll be lazy and react to Ania's post over here...

Funny that your polish friend translated 'collection' into 'movement'. In Dutch the translation is 'verzameling', which is a literal translation of the word 'collection', 'collecting' in the means of 'gathering together'. That probably influenced my way of seeing it, because I see collection as a horse shortening his frame, gathering his energy together and redirect it upwards. So for me collection in a horse is something like thinking upwards, moving upwards instead of just forwards.

By the way: how are you doing with your 3D programm? This looks quite nice already. What's your aim with it, do you want the horses to start moving at some point? No, I'm not curious.

oh Miriam, shame on you

Sorry, I haven't found it maybe here we can define collection and there recognize collection
I like to define only what's going on in horse's mind; mobilization, concentration, focus. I'm not sure what about relaxation. People are very fixed on that, because it's one element of german "training scales". On one hand, when we do positive training, and without tack, the horse should always be relaxed - meaning that there is no bad tension in muscles, nothing to fight against... as we don't restrict the horse. On the other hand, there is no training that goes without stress - at least stress because of not knowing the right answer. But the collected horse should already know it...
ok, about the program - now I stopped learning it and I wait for another vershion, hoping that they'll improve it it's Blender: http://www.blender.org/
Wow, they did! I hope that the sculpt mode is better now!

Parelli says that a horse must be emotionally and mentally collected before it can be physically collected- I love that! Collection is the natural posture of balance and grace that only a calm confident horse will show.

I also used to think of collection as being "gathered together", butwhat happened (because i used a bit- but it can be done in halter or bitless too) is that I pulled the horse in- nose to tail accordian style. There is a lot of stretching in collection. The only reason the horse shortens is becasue of the more vertical alignment- like taking blocks that were beside each other and putting one on top of the other- you didn't cram them together and it doesn't take muscle to stack a block- but you do have to know how to lift and balance it.

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Learning to put the relationship first.

Musings on collection

Hypothesis: Collection comes from two physical positions, a tucking the pelvis and a lifting of the neck and withers. (This assumes the horse is physically prepared and ready)

Note: Please know that this is not written in stone upon my heart. I am just trying to understand how this works. Please correct me so we can discuss this.

Excerpt from Another Horsemanship by Jean-Claude Racinet



Okay, I am probably going to jump around, but here goes. From what I have read, one of the elements of collection is that it shortens the horse’s frame. I believe that if the horse lifts his neck and withers and tucks his pelvic bone in, this would occur. Tucking the pelvis in would also elevate the back.

Another element of collection is that the horse’s hind end sinks a little lower to the ground on account of having the joints in his hind legs bend and flex gymnastically to act as springs. If you combine this with the tipping of the pelvis, wouldn’t this appear that the horse is stepping under himself more? But in reality, he is just shortening his frame somewhat?

When the horse’s pelvic bone is tucked in, he has less ability to thrust forward, but much more ability to thrust upwards. This then contributes to the elevated gaits we hope to see with high levels of collection.

I have also read that the lower the horse’s head is, the more he needs to step under himself. But what they really mean is that the lower the horse’s head, the farther back his hind leg must move in disengagement to keep his balance. In western riding, even horses that are “collected,” with their head low, are somewhat strung out. I imagine that this is because with the head and neck low and in front, this distributes a lot of weight on the forehand. A tucking under of the pelvis is not enough to take the weight off the forehand, the head and neck must lift. However, in sliding stops, there is much engagement of the hind end and tipping under of the pelvis, allowing a shortening of the horse’s frame.

In a horse reaching under himself with his back legs (not collected), the thrust occurs when the horse’s leg is behind the point of the buttock. Then the thrust is forward. When the horse’s pelvis is tipped under/tucked in, the thrust happens when the leg is more vertical, therefore the thrust is much more upward.

Ivy

PS There are a couple of images that go along with the quote. I will post them tomorrow.

_________________
http://www.ivyshorses.com
Blog: http://www.EquestrianHarmony.wordpress.com

Hi Ivy,

if you want to read some old discussions about collection (boy, did we discuss this in great lengths...), you can find them in the links to threads topic. It´s the first group of threads right on top of the page.

Warm Regards,
Romy

Ivy, some thoughts on collection:

You mention the sliding stop, as in reining horse work, stockhorse, I presume, and label it collection.

As a young man I was much involved with stockhorse competition, both in Hackamore - the traditional Californio La Jaquima con Fiador - I still use the hand tied traditional one in most of my work - and in bitted work.

At that time you would have been accurate about the shortening of the body because the horse invariably was cued so roughly and with a lack of knowledge of both anatomy and training and conditioning, that resulted in the horse sliding head high, often nose up, but even with nose down, neck still elevated and often the back dropping behind the withers. A very contorted frame.

It was only toward the end of my career that trainers of stock horses, myself included, began to experiment with head low and extended. We were, of course, all over the place as we tried to figure out how to do it. And we were criticized as not having our horses properly collected.

My thoughts about this after all those years have passed, and I have been out of the horseworld until a couple of years ago is that the sliding stop isn't a collected maneuver at all. It is unique in that the front end of the horse, when done in proper frame currently in competition, is extended and the pelvis is tucked with the hind legs coming under.

So collected at one end, extended at the other. This isn't an official position, as far as I know, just my own observation.

In the same vein, the slow jog trot in reining horse work is labeled as and often called collected, but in fact it is simply a short stride with very slight elevation and almost NO reaching under with the hind legs. There isn't, as far as I know, a proper name for it.

I hope that one day some of what you describe, and what other AND members consider collection will pass as the standard. That standard, in my mind would have to include both reaching under, elevation, and most importantly, lifting of the shoulders - that maneuver that most often embodies lightness and softness of gait in the horse.

I am unable to see a lifting of the whithers by the horse as the primary event, but feel it through my own body as a lifting of the shoulders that comes from the ground up, and from the lifting of the neck at the chest. This of course makes the whithers elevate. I don't think there are any muscles to independently lift the whithers, and when it comes up it's a result of what I just pointed out: the legs, shoulders, and neck elevation at the chest, all of which can be accomplished with the horses head and neck elevated or lowered an all along that arc of vertical positioning.

Watching slow motion vids of horses at liberty, often doing everything that I consider collection and seeing them with head down, head up, head in the middle, it convinces me that more exploration of this in connection with obtaining collection is a must for us to understand and to free the horse to balance on his own.

When I rode jumpers later in my career the emphasis was on giving great freedom to the horse's head and neck even though one had to rate, or allow the horse to rate approaching the jumps. Even there I don't think it had been studied fully enough to have the protocols clear and precise in naming what was really happening.

Does it appear I am confused about what collection is?

I'm not, but I do admit that the question of what it is and isn't is a long way from resolved at this point in history.

The frame that most often shows in what is probably the best examples of collection often does have the horse's head and neck higher than the withers, and the nose moved inward somewhat. It's the other postures, just as you point out in sliding stop, where there may be controversy and hopefully attempts to more accurately describe what is taking place, and some new labels to expand on the full range of what collection really seems to be: not a frozen frame, but a fluid range of motions of various body parts that create a whole that is light, elevated, and yes, a shortend frame with some uphill by the horse.

Donald
Nettlepatch Farm

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Interestingly enough the position of head and neck are at best secondary or tertiary indicators of a lifted back and throat at the chest. I ask for the head position ONLY after and IF the other things have happened, or to test and see if they have happened. The horse cannot and will not raise his head the way in which I ask if other parts of the horse aren't in place and in synch and symmetry

How do I ask?

First look at what I am really after: I want the back and neck junction at the chest to rise up. It cannot if my seat is poor or I am hurting the horse's mouth or neck. The indicators - this is all available in the AND archives of methods - are these, at these these are the two more easily seen ones: The stomach oblique on the horse will stand out, particular on one side during a curved path execution; and the hind leg will come further under than usual.

One can have a ground assistant give feedback on just these two things. When the oblique is tensed you can feel it. The ride if very different, the barrel is lifted, and the hind leg must come forward to support the lifting. What collection really is. You can feel it, or learn to.

Only then do I ask the head to lower, and then only for a test and to motivate calmness.

And I do it in a way that I've not seen others ever do.

For me it's necessary to have the correct mental frame of reference, and that, for me, as to the use of the rein, is in reverse of what others might think. I do not think of the rein pointing in the direction of "pull," or tension. My touch is too light for that.

I think of the rein as pointing away from my hand toward what I want to ask the horse.

Yes, pointing away from my hand, like a stick pointing at the horse's mouth. And since I want to invite him to lower his head and neck I point downward, not upward or back.

The reason this works is rather simple. I know for a fact, and so does pretty nearly everyone that's ridden a horse, that if I pull on the horse's mouth, especially a green horse, or one that has had little or limited training and especially if that training has been poor, HE WILL PULL BACK AGAINST THE TENSION.

In fact that is what I look for, and when I feel it, his pulling back I release the tension TO him, thus "pointing down."

Where is my hand and the rein? People, the few that have watched me train, don't get it at first, as it looks like I'm trying to lift, not lower, the head. My hand is way forward, near his ear, or as far as I can comfortably reach and not disturb my seat (and disrupt my intent).

The rein is shortened, and pointing as close to vertical as possible.

Sounds nuts doesn't it? Nearly impossible to do, right?

But the fact is this is easy, and like all rein work can only go wrong if one misuses it. In other words, if my hand isn't sensitive enough to take up a very soft bit of tension, and my hand is not lightening fast to release that tension in appreciation of his giving generously to my asking then yes, I will likely pull the horse's head up.

But that is darned hard to do when you have your hand up near his ear unless you are a body builder or power lifter.

In other words, the horse has the advantage of being able ot refuse, as well he should if I have not maintained a properly balanced and centered seat with good flexibility and following the horse's movement and balance.

So if he refuses to lower his head either I've made errors, or he is not physically or mentally ready yet to give what I ask of him.

There is no increase of tension because I'm really, in my mind, and throughout my body, NOT pulling, but rather pointing downward. That's how light it must feel. The horse will feel the invitation. Your hand must be generous, at least as much or more than the horse, and tolerant for the horse that does not understand the invitation. No pulling.

One must stop if the horse refuses. Go on to conditioning work, and come back to rein work, as in this test maneuver, from time to time, but never demanding. Never doing it more than a time or two each time. If the rider demands, if the rider insists on "control," the game is up. The belly collapses, the neck drops, the withers sag into the shoulderblades, the tail thrashes. Sadly.

And this holds true for whatever headgear is used, bitted or bitless.

In terms of AND, while this has tension and release as part of the exercise, I would go further and give him a signal (I 'tsk') that he has done what I asked of him, and he'd get a follow up reward, my invitation to play with this head up head down thing.

Remember you can see and feel the abdominal oblique's tense and lift, and you can feel the hind leg(s) come further under, and the back raise. You'll likely, if you aren't familiar with it now, also see the shoulders come up as the neck comes up, lifted along with everything else and showing it at the chest junction of the neck.

You will be looking at and feeling collection. You can see all this in the horse at liberty and the horse properly ridden in collection. You likely have already done much of this and felt much of this.

And head position is, I repeat, NOT the primary indicator of collection and a horse can collect with his head just about anywhere, but he cannot without all the other elements in place. This is the place to start - with the rest of the body, long before you ask for head position.

And the path to attaining the other elements is conditioning, which cannot happen correctly if the rider is not riding well. Of course one can get a great deal of proper collection conditioning at liberty, or on the loungeline, but for riding, we are the horse's worst enemy if we do not practice good seat principles.

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Donald, this is similar to what my friend Paul taught me, and that I've understood (although I could easily be misunderstanding) that Phillipe Karl does. People call it "high hands" which as a term can be entirely misleading. It can lead people to believe that one should lift the horse's head...but in fact the movement of the hands is softly up and forward (as you have said) and then releasing further forward and down, so it is a bit of a soft circle. A friend has an Arabian that tends to want to go with a high head and one day I saw her riding with her hands very low...it was only very soft contact, but she was asking her horse to drop his nose. I walked along beside her and reminded her that Paul had suggesting lifting the hands rather than dropping them, and once reminded, she did just that and her horse softly dropped his nose and carried himself nicely for a while. He still has a long way to go, but as you say...as counter intuitive it may sound, it is much more understandable for the horse somehow.

I like your idea of explaining it as "pointing" the rein rather than making a contact with it. That is very soft. Nice!



With Tam, I will often raise only one rein...the inside, with or without making contact on the cavesson, I simply let the rein lift and lay it against his neck briefly and it has the same effect for him. This is, in essence, part of his cue for shoulder in where horses are most likely to carry the head in such a natural way with a relaxed poll, so it's like a shoulder-in-half-halt on the rein...without contact. With a horse that doesn't know the shoulder -in, a little touch with the inside leg (calf), or softly stepping in the outside stirrup briefly, while softly raising the inside rein against the neck, can have the same relaxing effect. It puts a little bend in the horse's body, then the poll is most likely to relax (if only briefly...but it can give you a moment to reward, which is most important).

_________________
"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"

What a neat thought. A circle that ends with going forward and down. Seems very related to what I do, but with likely a bit more finesse. Again I see the opportunity, or even requirement that one have their head on straight, their intent very clear to themselves, and executing the work congruently.

Nooo....really, a high headed Arabian? How rare and quaint.

I confess that from time to time I let onlookers thing I'm a genius, but the fact is I learned this from reading, from studying horses, from studying myself, and from observing myself and horses. I used to try all kinds of things.

In fact, I find I still do, and I still read, and I still ask questions. And I still appreciate what is offered. Thank you so much.


Oh dear, I surely messed up, and you caught it. I NEVER USE BOTH REINS TO DO THIS. Ever. When I teach I make the student work with one hand, and drop the other rein and capture their free hand somewhere comfortable but unavailable. This IS a one rein exercise.

There are a few things I might use simultaneous reins, but I discourage the use of two reins at once for myself and for my students. That is the hardest of all habits to break, next to kicking the horse's sides to make him go.

Using one rein, in my mind, is being most polite and decent to the horse.

Little secret. I learned this by putting on a bridle and manipulating the bit in my own mouth, many many years ago. I worked out in the country at an isolated breeding and training barn all by myself for weeks at a time. I could do all kinds of nutty experiments and not have to be bothered with other people. It was how I learned how horribly cruel even my best and softest work was back then - from my stallion, Koko. He rebelled by spontaneous playing. I quite riding and not long after quite horses entirely, bless his big kind childlike heart.

I gave up controlling, but did not know what to do other than that at the time. There was no competition for "horse playing," at that time.

Come to think of it there still isn't except at AND and AND like establishments or groups.

Donald

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

Well, it would be fun, but it would be hard to judge. I guess that if you and your horse seemed to have fun, you would get first place.

Regards,

Ivy

_________________
http://www.ivyshorses.com
Blog: http://www.EquestrianHarmony.wordpress.com

That would sound about right. The prize would be six bags of treats, and two bales of hay which all competitors would share from equally - if they wanted to.

Oh, wait, I think you mean PEOPLE.

I meant horses. The horses are showing of their human training as far as I can see.

At least here at AND.

_________________
Love is Trust, trust is All
~~~~~~~~~
So say Don, Altea, and Bonnie the Wonder Filly.

I think that if you are soft, and your hands keep something closer to "just OFF contact" rather than on a contact, then lifting both reins is not such a bad thing. It negates the possibility of helping the horse to bend through it's body (and the relaxing effects that can have on the horse), but it still has the effect of dropping the nose.

It was explained to me that on a snaffle, when you lift the hands, the bit works in the corners of the mouth rather than on the bars (and the softer the hands, the better).



That made me laugh right out loud. I smiled when I wrote it...I thought to explain more, but I figured it was funnier if I didn't. The lady with this horse, rides in a snaffle. She is incredibly kind and patient. I would actually ask her horse, ever so politely of course, to carry his head lower more often...but even at the very slow pace she is going, she has built up his topline from when she first brought him here. He was skinny and his back was dropped. He's so much healthier now, and she is working slowly to bring him to collection. He gets better all the time. And at least now he's travelling somewhat level headed and not so high headed. They will get there.

BUT...the various rein effects are very interesting. I was asking someone for clarification the other day on the direct and indirect rein of opposition. He gave me a brilliant explanation that I finally was able to understand. Some of it i had already been utilizing, without really knowing what it was called...but I thought it was only an outside rein effect and didn't realize that the inside rein can be used the same way...well, I was using it that way a bit already...in using the inside rein against Tam's neck, I'm in effect asking his outside hind to adduct, but I hadn't really thought of it that way until he explained it to me. Very clear.

I know what you mean about a hard habit to break. I've nagged a few of the kids here to try to use only one rein and use their seat more. I think you could remind them 100 times in a single ride not to use both reins to pull back ( for anything) and they will still do it.

When I found the magic of one rein (or I can call them independent reins) it was impossible NOT to do it that way...it not only felt good to me, but the horses respond so well too.

_________________
"Ride reverently, as if each step is the axis on which the earth revolves"